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Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

M

melloyello

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 23, 2011
187
0
47
Todays conditions:
48°F, 50% humidity, 5-10mph headwind, partly sunny
Alpha Chrony set at 15ft from muzzle

First up are groups my brother fired from his Marlin X7VH, 26" barrel, 1:12 twist. All cases Remington once fired, trimmed, neck sized and OAL of 2.80" using WLR primers.
X7VH target
Varget
41gr 2437 2419 2403 2462 2461 =2436.4avg(1.144")59fps spread
41.5gr 2444 2499 2452 2468 2479 =2468.4avg(1.564")35fps spread
42gr 2545 2514 2493 2517 2532 =2520.2avg(1.880")52fps spread
42.5gr 2520 2499 2543 2502 2525 =2517.8avg(1.226")44fps spread
43gr 2572 2540 2566 2582 2577 =2567.4avg(.850") 42fps spread
43.5gr 2594 2590 2594 2614 2611 =2600.6avg(1.519")24fps spread
Added 2/10/13
44gr 2606 2630 2581 2628 2593 =2607.6avg(.767") 49fps spread
44.5gr 2625 2565 2589 ---- 2599 =2594.5avg(1.019")60fps spread
45gr 2684 2596 2645 2624 2639 =2637.6avg(1.313")88fps spread

Second target is mine fired from my AAC-SD 20" barrel 1:10 twist. All cases Winchester once fired, trimmed, neck sized, OAL of 2.80", WLR primers.
AAC-SD target
Varget
41gr 2236 2286 2274 2280 ---- =2269avg(1.136") 50fps spread
41.5gr 2343 2340 2379 2308 2364 =2346.8avg(.533")71fps spread
42gr 2393 2399 2409 2411 2369 =2396.2avg(1.56")42fps spread
42.5gr 2385 2335 2318 2358 2399 =2359avg(.738") 81fps spread
43gr 2423 2420 2409 2435 2431 =2423.6avg(.414")26fps spread
43.5gr 2490 2469 2469 2476 2464 =2473.6avg(.755")26fps spread
Added 2/10/13
44gr 2507 2480 2432 2457 2486 =2472.4avg(1.626")75fps spread
44.5gr 2524 2512 2552 2510 2507 =2521avg(2.109") 45fps spread
45gr 2511 2525 2542 2533 2537 =2529.6avg(1.679")31fps spread

It was interesting to me that my gun loved a couple of these loads but my brothers didn't seem to like any of it. But, when we each shot a 3 shot group of Hornady 178gr HPBT Match he shot .610"/2708fps and I shot 1.153"/2599fps. Here's that target.
HORNADY 178gr HPBT MATCH target

I saw no signs of pressure issues with either rifles. I am thinking of loading some 44gr just to see for each. I really think I am happy with mine and just want to try some just above and below 43gr. I would like to get my brother to at least .750" or below. His rifle really liked the Match ammo at 2708fps so I am thinking I might need to go faster with his. Mine didn't like that same ammo at 2599fps so I might be better staying around 2423fps which was my average for my best group.
Anything you guys see I am missing or something I should try or even something I am doing wrong. Yes, I did have 2 that I pulled and my brother had one he pulled. His wasn't so bad but when I pull one I really pull one.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I run 45.9 in mine using Lapua brass and CCI BR-2 primers. It's hot, but works OK in Lapua. I am getting half-minute accuracy (X-ring at 1000) with the load, and it stays accurate and supersonic to 1250 yards above 50 degrees.

I would NOT try this with any other brass.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run 45.9 in mine using Lapua brass and CCI BR-2 primers. It's hot, but works OK in Lapua. I am getting half-minute accuracy (X-ring at 1000) with the load, and it stays accurate and supersonic to 1250 yards above 50 degrees.

I would NOT try this with any other brass.</div></div>

What's your muzzle velocity and barrel length?
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I think you have got a lot of room to go up on the charges man. 2600 out of a 26" barrel is pretty light. Im pushing 2740 out of a 20" with 178s. You should be able to get up in the 2700s without pushing it hard with 6 more inches.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you have got a lot of room to go up on the charges man. 2600 out of a 26" barrel is pretty light. Im pushing 2740 out of a 20" with 178s. You should be able to get up in the 2700s without pushing it hard with 6 more inches. </div></div>

I think so too. I am thinking I am going to load my brother some at 44gr and 44.5gr which will get him up to 2700fps. His rifle liked the Hornady HPBT at that velocity. We plan on shooting out to 1000yds with these. I don't think we would have any issues to that range with the velocities we have already but I just think we will find a sweet spot around 2700fps.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McLarenRoss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im pushing 2740 out of a 20" with 178s.</div></div>

Would you mind sharing what powder and grain weights you use to achieve this?
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: QuietShootr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run 45.9 in mine using Lapua brass and CCI BR-2 primers. It's hot, but works OK in Lapua. I am getting half-minute accuracy (X-ring at 1000) with the load, and it stays accurate and supersonic to 1250 yards above 50 degrees.

I would NOT try this with any other brass. </div></div>

What projectile ? Amax's
There must be some serious crunching (compression) going on.
I have compressed loads at 44.3 grains of Varget with lapua brass

Kyle
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I agree with the above I have found almost all guns like the 44.5 gr area with 175gr bullets or 178 you know what I mean.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

+1 on quietshootr's load. He is running a FN SPR A3G IIRC. I ran the same load in my SPR A2 with great success, HOWEVER, Every rifle is different. My Surgeon .308 shows pressure anything above 45 grains and as low as 43 grains if I jam the A-Max's into the lands. As others have posted tho you will likely find a sweet spot in the area of 44.5 grains. Also in up'ing the charge (higher case fill ratio's) you'll see those ES's and SD's start to shrink down nicely.

I say press on with both rifles until you see pressure then back off to the closest node. Then look for the best ES's and SD's. Then play with seating depth to shrink your groups.

Group size at 100 means nothing on the big end. Listen to your chrono!
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

Thanks for the help guys. I thnk I will go ahead and load out to 45gr for both guns ad check velocities, groups and signs of pressure. Haven't seen any yet. I just didn' want to waste time reloading bullets I would have to pull out later if I saw pressure signs around 43gr.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

Went back out today and we shot up to 45gr in each rifle. I have added those numbers to my original post. Found no pressure signs in either rifle up to the numbers seen in my post. I am thinking I am going to have to up my powder more on my aac-sd to get it on up to 2600fps average. My brother is happy with his results at 43 and 44gr. He wants to load more of them and pick one. I want to compare our final loads that we come up with to a ladder test. May take a while like this but since I first heard of ladder testing I have been wondering which way is the way to go. The only way I can think of to decide is for myself. If both tests net the same load then I will start doing ladder testing because it would seem to use less rounds to get to the same point.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

If you can find some FGMM primers give them a try. Should help the spread out some.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I ran several 178 amax groups today with different ogive depths, 42.8 gr and 43.8 gr.

Both in my GAP built bartlein 1-11.25" twist and 20" barrel. Lapua brass and FGMM primers. The 42.8 ran around 2555 and 43.8 around 2608. Used a chrony beta master.

42.8 strings
2551/2558/2551/2554/2555 .005 off lands
2546/2546/2554/2555/2551 .015
2558/2549/2554/2562/2564 .010

43.8 strings
2610/2611/2608/2609/2599 .005 off lands
2604/2608/2603/2608/2606 .015
2610/2618/2606/2611/2612 .010

Best group came from 43.8gr .010 off the lands, although 42.8gr .005 off was making a tiny little bughole for the first four shots, wasnt able to wish that last one in. Planned to shoot a few at 500 yards, but very windy and inconsistent, so just played at 100. Here we're a couple of the groups:

image_zps381cc4df.jpg


image_zps111d7d7b.jpg


image_zps2c46d87b.jpg


image_zps8fd47a8a.jpg
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricF517</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can find some FGMM primers give them a try. Should help the spread out some.</div></div>

Primers are getting pretty hard to find. I was lucky enough to run across some more WLR primers Saturday at a local gun show. I went ahead and picked up 2000 because I didn't know how long it would be before I saw anymore. I try not to buy powder and primers online because of the extra shipping cost.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will in Kenai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ran several 178 amax groups today with different ogive depths, 42.8 gr and 43.8 gr.

Both in my GAP built bartlein 1-11.25" twist and 20" barrel. Lapua brass and FGMM primers. The 42.8 ran around 2555 and 43.8 around 2608. Used a chrony beta master.

42.8 strings
2551/2558/2551/2554/2555 .005 off lands
2546/2546/2554/2555/2551 .015
2558/2549/2554/2562/2564 .010

43.8 strings
2610/2611/2608/2609/2599 .005 off lands
2604/2608/2603/2608/2606 .015
2610/2618/2606/2611/2612 .010

Best group came from 43.8gr .010 off the lands, although 42.8gr .005 off was making a tiny little bughole for the first four shots, wasnt able to wish that last one in. Planned to shoot a few at 500 yards, but very windy and inconsistent, so just played at 100. Here we're a couple of the groups:

</div></div>

After seeing your numbers and groups I am definitely raising my powder charge and getting these bullets on up to 2600+fps.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I have the same rifle. I started shooting 48.0 2000 mr with the that same case bullet ect.... Picked up 90 fps. And my group sizes went wayyyy down past 3 to 400 yards
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

Looks like anything over 45gr is going to net a compressed load. Not a lot but just enough that I could hear it when the bullet fully seated at 45.5gr. Should I load these to the same OAL of 2.80" or should I maybe 2.85" or more? Or would it be better to remain compressed? Never had any compressed loads but have read they tend to be more consistent.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I will say the last two groups I did, which are not included above, were the same 42.8 and 43.8, seated .010 off the lands, but with regular (non-BR) CCI large rifle primers. (I'm typically a huge CCI fan) The groups opened up a bit and there were a couple wide swings in velocity. In fairness, I have to say they were the last rounds I loaded and last ones I shot. I do not think I was any less meticulous with measuring or holding on target, but certainly noticed a difference.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melloyello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricF517</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can find some FGMM primers give them a try. Should help the spread out some.</div></div>

Primers are getting pretty hard to find. I was lucky enough to run across some more WLR primers Saturday at a local gun show. I went ahead and picked up 2000 because I didn't know how long it would be before I saw anymore. I try not to buy powder and primers online because of the extra shipping cost. </div></div>

That is why I usually buy lots of primers and powder when I can. Saves on the cost. But in today's market I know what you mean about taking what you can get.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

My savage loves the 178 Amaxes with 45.5 gr of Varget and getting 2700 fps, but it shot them with 44.8 Gr more consistently! I get .5" all day long with them. Ultimately I went to the 178 bthp for the ultra high B.C.'s1. And they shoot exactly the same for me! I was able to push the load up to 46 gr with no pressure signs, but I felt like I was pushing it too hard!

One reason your brothers rifle may not like the 178's is the 1:12 twist in the barrel! Your 1:10 twist is optimal for the 175 gr. plus bullet weights!

Good luck with it!
Rick
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My savage loves the 178 Amaxes with 45.5 gr of Varget and getting 2700 fps, but it shot them with 44.8 Gr more consistently! I get .5" all day long with them. Ultimately I went to the 178 bthp for the ultra high B.C.'s1. And they shoot exactly the same for me! I was able to push the load up to 46 gr with no pressure signs, but I felt like I was pushing it too hard!

One reason your brothers rifle may not like the 178's is the 1:12 twist in the barrel! Your 1:10 twist is optimal for the 175 gr. plus bullet weights!

Good luck with it!
Rick </div></div>

I just can't get my head around the twist problem. Many others have said that and I may be thinking about this wrong but hear me out.
My barrel has a twist rate of 1:10. My barrel is 20" long so that would mean the bullet makes 2 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. My brothers twist rate is 1:12. His barrel is 26" so his bullet would turn 2.167 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. Wouldn't his bullet be better stabilized than mine? Maybe I am thinking about it totally wrong. Maybe it is better stabilized b/c the bullet continues to turn once every 10" and his continues to turn once every 12". I guess that would make more sense.
I have never really had to worry about twist rates. I used to just pick up a rifle, use the most popular ammo and sight in at 100 or 200yds and go hunting. Now that I would like to stretch out to 1000yds instead of maybe 300 I am finding that everything can throw a kink into what happens at that range. I started reloading a couple of years ago and haven't dabbled in rifle cartridges much so I am still learning.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

In LC/LR brass, I have found 42.8-43.2gr of Varget (depending on powder lot) under 175SMK or 178AMAX to be identical to M118LR and FGMM 175 loads. I use CCI regular primers, seat to 2.805, and apply a light crimp to the case mouth - just like M118LR and FGMM 175. I believe the factory load uses RL19 and may have lower ES/SD. But I've used Varget for years and have plenty of it.

This load is not tailored to any particular rifle. I full-length size. It shoots sub-MOA in every single .308 rifle I've ever tried it in - if the rifle would shoot MOA or less. Works great in semi-auto and bolt guns.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I feel like a pussy only running 40.5 grains of Varget with my AMAX's. I start seeing high pressure around 42 grains using Winchester military brass, Winchester primers, and 2.850 COL. I just got my Speed Magneto chronograph so I'll see what my speeds are.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: colt933</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In LC/LR brass, I have found 42.8-43.2gr of Varget (depending on powder lot) under 175SMK or 178AMAX to be identical to M118LR and FGMM 175 loads. I use CCI regular primers, seat to 2.805, and apply a light crimp to the case mouth - just like M118LR and FGMM 175. I believe the factory load uses RL19 and may have lower ES/SD. But I've used Varget for years and have plenty of it.

This load is not tailored to any particular rifle. I full-length size. It shoots sub-MOA in every single .308 rifle I've ever tried it in - if the rifle would shoot MOA or less. Works great in semi-auto and bolt guns. </div></div>

How many rifles have you shot that load in? That's hard to believe that different twist rates, different barrel lengths, different barrel thicknesses, bolt guns and semi-autos would all shoot great with that same exact round.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melloyello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My savage loves the 178 Amaxes with 45.5 gr of Varget and getting 2700 fps, but it shot them with 44.8 Gr more consistently! I get .5" all day long with them. Ultimately I went to the 178 bthp for the ultra high B.C.'s1. And they shoot exactly the same for me! I was able to push the load up to 46 gr with no pressure signs, but I felt like I was pushing it too hard!

One reason your brothers rifle may not like the 178's is the 1:12 twist in the barrel! Your 1:10 twist is optimal for the 175 gr. plus bullet weights!

Good luck with it!
Rick </div></div>

I just can't get my head around the twist problem. Many others have said that and I may be thinking about this wrong but hear me out.
My barrel has a twist rate of 1:10. My barrel is 20" long so that would mean the bullet makes 2 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. My brothers twist rate is 1:12. His barrel is 26" so his bullet would turn 2.167 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. Wouldn't his bullet be better stabilized than mine? Maybe I am thinking about it totally wrong. Maybe it is better stabilized b/c the bullet continues to turn once every 10" and his continues to turn once every 12". I guess that would make more sense.
I have never really had to worry about twist rates. I used to just pick up a rifle, use the most popular ammo and sight in at 100 or 200yds and go hunting. Now that I would like to stretch out to 1000yds instead of maybe 300 I am finding that everything can throw a kink into what happens at that range. I started reloading a couple of years ago and haven't dabbled in rifle cartridges much so I am still learning. </div></div>

Your bullet rotates 360*/10 inches or 36*/inch. At 20", your bullet has made two revolutions. Your brothers bullet is rotating 360*/12 inches or 30*/inch. At 20", his bullet has only rotated 1.6 revolutions. Your barrel imparts a faster spin and thus increased stability, which the heavier bullets need. Think of throwing a football. Yours throws a tight spiral, whereas his throws a "lame duck".
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huckleberry75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melloyello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My savage loves the 178 Amaxes with 45.5 gr of Varget and getting 2700 fps, but it shot them with 44.8 Gr more consistently! I get .5" all day long with them. Ultimately I went to the 178 bthp for the ultra high B.C.'s1. And they shoot exactly the same for me! I was able to push the load up to 46 gr with no pressure signs, but I felt like I was pushing it too hard!

One reason your brothers rifle may not like the 178's is the 1:12 twist in the barrel! Your 1:10 twist is optimal for the 175 gr. plus bullet weights!

Good luck with it!
Rick </div></div>

I just can't get my head around the twist problem. Many others have said that and I may be thinking about this wrong but hear me out.
My barrel has a twist rate of 1:10. My barrel is 20" long so that would mean the bullet makes 2 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. My brothers twist rate is 1:12. His barrel is 26" so his bullet would turn 2.167 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. Wouldn't his bullet be better stabilized than mine? Maybe I am thinking about it totally wrong. Maybe it is better stabilized b/c the bullet continues to turn once every 10" and his continues to turn once every 12". I guess that would make more sense.
I have never really had to worry about twist rates. I used to just pick up a rifle, use the most popular ammo and sight in at 100 or 200yds and go hunting. Now that I would like to stretch out to 1000yds instead of maybe 300 I am finding that everything can throw a kink into what happens at that range. I started reloading a couple of years ago and haven't dabbled in rifle cartridges much so I am still learning. </div></div>

Your bullet rotates 360*/10 inches or 36*/inch. At 20", your bullet has made two revolutions. Your brothers bullet is rotating 360*/12 inches or 30*/inch. At 20", his bullet has only rotated 1.6 revolutions. Your barrel imparts a faster spin and thus increased stability, which the heavier bullets need. Think of throwing a football. Yours throws a tight spiral, whereas his throws a "lame duck".</div></div>

Perfect explanation. Now that's something I can relate to. I may use that analogy at a later date if I have your permission sir.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

I should probably come back to this thread when I'm not driving Home from work... In heavy rain
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should probably come back to this thread when I'm not driving Home from work... In heavy rain</div></div>

Probably not a bad idea.
 
Re: Group testing Varget and 178gr AMAX (.308)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melloyello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Huckleberry75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: melloyello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My savage loves the 178 Amaxes with 45.5 gr of Varget and getting 2700 fps, but it shot them with 44.8 Gr more consistently! I get .5" all day long with them. Ultimately I went to the 178 bthp for the ultra high B.C.'s1. And they shoot exactly the same for me! I was able to push the load up to 46 gr with no pressure signs, but I felt like I was pushing it too hard!

One reason your brothers rifle may not like the 178's is the 1:12 twist in the barrel! Your 1:10 twist is optimal for the 175 gr. plus bullet weights!

Good luck with it!
Rick </div></div>

I just can't get my head around the twist problem. Many others have said that and I may be thinking about this wrong but hear me out.
My barrel has a twist rate of 1:10. My barrel is 20" long so that would mean the bullet makes 2 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. My brothers twist rate is 1:12. His barrel is 26" so his bullet would turn 2.167 revolutions b4 it leaves the barrel. Wouldn't his bullet be better stabilized than mine? Maybe I am thinking about it totally wrong. Maybe it is better stabilized b/c the bullet continues to turn once every 10" and his continues to turn once every 12". I guess that would make more sense.
I have never really had to worry about twist rates. I used to just pick up a rifle, use the most popular ammo and sight in at 100 or 200yds and go hunting. Now that I would like to stretch out to 1000yds instead of maybe 300 I am finding that everything can throw a kink into what happens at that range. I started reloading a couple of years ago and haven't dabbled in rifle cartridges much so I am still learning. </div></div>

Your bullet rotates 360*/10 inches or 36*/inch. At 20", your bullet has made two revolutions. Your brothers bullet is rotating 360*/12 inches or 30*/inch. At 20", his bullet has only rotated 1.6 revolutions. Your barrel imparts a faster spin and thus increased stability, which the heavier bullets need. Think of throwing a football. Yours throws a tight spiral, whereas his throws a "lame duck".</div></div>

Perfect explanation. Now that's something I can relate to. I may use that analogy at a later date if I have your permission sir.</div></div>

Why of course you may, go forth and share.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redirt78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should probably come back to this thread when I'm not driving Home from work... In heavy rain</div></div>

Duh!!! I can say that and not be a hypocrite since I have done that as well. But two wrongs don't make it right. Although three lefts will.
 
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