What am I not doing? (brass prep)

[scissorhands]

I want to take my reloading to the next level and I am wondering what I could do with brass prep to make my rounds better. Here is what I currently do to fired brass...
1. deprime/bump the shoulder back .002
2. trim to saami specs 2.005 (debur)
3. uniform primer pockets
4. tumble the brass

Whats the next step to better brass prep/accuracy? What should I try and what is the benefit of your suggestion.

Thanks for looking!
Rob

 

[ksthomas]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Rob,

there's a ton of things you could be doing here, but without knowing what you're doing, it's kinda hard to say whether or not they'd be worth it in the long run. You can go full-on benchrest techniques if you want, and it will be a complete and total waste of time in most rifles. You need to match the techniques to your ultimate requirements and equipment. Doing much beyond this is probably a wate of time, and won't show results on target. Start with that basic question; what are you needing this ammo to do? That'll give you a place to start, and you can sort out what does (and does not) make sense from there.

 

[mac37]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. trim to saami specs 2.005 (debur)
</div></div>
Why don't you trim to your chamber spec? You most likely are removing more material than needed.

As asked above, what are your goals? What rifle/chamber/caliber?
If it's a factory rifle with saami spec chamber. You're probably doing enough prep.

Consistent neck tension, seating depth, and powder weighing are key.

 

[scissorhands]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

The rifle is a rem 700 ltr .308 The ammo will be used for target shooting only. from 100-1000 yards. at 100 yards I average .5-.6 moa ( the average is over 100 rounds down range. I cant seem to get the groups any smaller than that.

Why don't you trim to your chamber spec?
How do I go about that? I havent trimmed back my brass for 3-4 firings. Do i just keep shooting until the brass wont chamber, then cut back little by little until it chambers?

I currently have been reloading Hornady Match brass and I wanted to start my new batch (200 pieces of lapua) of brass off on the right foot.
I havent measured the chamber with anything reliable, so I havent played around with seating depth at all. I am just setting the coal to 2.800. The Hornady lock n load guage interests me, but I can never find the actual .308 case that goes with the system. I have used a dowel rod to measure, but I never have gotten consistant measurements.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Okay, you've got a couple of things you can start on right there. One, check with Sinclair for their chamber length gage, and you'll find out what you actually need to trim to for your chamber. This really isn't much of an accuracy issue, and is precisely what I was describing by focusing on the wrong things. Case length is a safety issue, and not really much related to accuracy in most instances. Powder charges; throw them for anything out to 600 yards, and you'll never see a difference on target. From 600 to 1000 yards, absolutely, weigh every charge. Again, things that don't make a difference up close, can have a big impact when the distance stretches out a way. You mention seating to 2.800", which is the standard length for a SAAMI 308 Win cartridge. It is <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> what will match your throat, or is likely to deliver the best accuracy in your rifle. That takes some experimentation and some research on your part. Generally, seating the ogive to a specific relationship to the throat is where you'll find the best accuracy. Just what that dimension may be, will vary substantially from gun to gun, from bullet to bullet, etc.. This simply comes down to doing some experimentation and finding out what your combination shows a preference for. Sorry, no magic shortcuts here; you have to do the work. But this is the sort of thing I was getting at in my original post.

 

[seanh]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

there is plenty that you can do to the case...neck turning, weighing cases, deburring flash holes internally. It definitely helps but really only in benchrest rifles and pushing 1K ranges (Weighing bullets, primers, individual powder charges, cleaning the tips of bullets--also help at extreme ranges)

For anything under 500-600, it's doubtful you'll see any difference using the above techniques.

If you haven't done it yet, I'd do ladder testing to see what node your barrel likes. Ladder testing is not group testing. What you're doing is making a set of loads from roughly minimum to maximum and shooting them at the same point of aim. The intent is to find where you get the smallest deviation between shots.

So, you'll fire a shot sequence say 1-12...marking each shot. As you shoot each round you'll see that the impact will walk up and down the target. You're looking for say, 3 shots that are the closest together...this gives you a place to start working up a load. I'm sure someone else can do a better job of describing ladder testing...do some research on the topic.

 

[Rapidrob]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Leave the spent primer in the fired casings and fill each with water. Weigh each water "charge" ( dump the water out on each case the same way) This will check the cases for the same volume capacity. Your cases may be the same lot number, BUT,they are punched out on different press pins and die sets.
Separate the cases by the variations you see.
This test will also show if you have a case where the walls are/have thinned out and are at the end of their lives.( more weight than the others) This can be a factor if you were given brass by a friend/range pick-up, and you have no idea if it has been trimmed several times.
Weighing the cases empty will show brass consistency but not necessarily true case volume.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

This is the tool used to determine trim length
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-eq...-prod32925.aspx
Trimming is more of a safety choir than a accuracy one, 308 trimming back to 2.005 is OK, but as you transition to overbores trimming back to min length burns your chamber up faster.

Two things come to mind, debur the flash hole from the inside, I prefer the Sinclair Gen2 for this because the stop is directly above the cutter, 2nd is not a brass prep step but seat all bullets by Ojive.

 

[blackfoot]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

First simple step you are missing is deburr flash hole. Beyond that, besides the other good suggestions on seating depth, etc., do everything you can to get good consistent neck tension. If you don't turn necks or use a bushing die, use an expander mandrel rather than pulling the sizing button through your necks. You want alignment, consistent powder/bullet weights, and consistent neck tension for consistent accuracy. Then again, you can do all of this and your rifle just might not be capable of better accuracy than what you are getting.

 

[scissorhands]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blackfoot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First simple step you are missing is deburr flash hole. Beyond that, besides the other good suggestions on seating depth, etc., do everything you can to get good consistent neck tension. <span style="color: #FF0000">If you don't turn necks or use a bushing die, use an expander mandrel rather than pulling the sizing button through your necks. You want alignment, consistent powder/bullet weights, and consistent neck tension for consistent accuracy.</span> Then again, you can do all of this and your rifle just might not be capable of better accuracy than what you are getting. </div></div>

can you explain that a little more, what tools do I need? I just use a regular rcbs FL die and neck sizing die for resizing my brass

 

[blackfoot]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

You use a fl and a neck die?

 

[scissorhands]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blackfoot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You use a fl and a neck die?</div></div>

not at the same time. LOL

 

[blackfoot]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Get a sinclair expander mandrel .002 under bullet diameter and an expander body. Take the expander ball out of you dies and after you size run the expander mandrel. You'll have roughly .002 neck tension and more consistent brass length without stretching your brass by pulling the expander ball through. I use bushing dies but without them I prefer this method.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

You say you are averaging .5-.6 MOA right now? I hate to tell you this but there are custom rifles that have a hard time with that task. You won't hear many talk about it because it is embarrasing.
You don't need to do anything else. Anything else is likely a waste of time. If your rifle will hold that .6 MOA at 1000yds it doesn't get much better, consider yourself blesssed.

You don't have to trim so much, do what the others have suggested with the Sinclair guage. They are great simple little widgets.
Learn how to anneal. This will help your neck tension more than anything you can do.

Thank you for posting this question and your current results. It illustrates what I tell people all the time, that think they need voodoo magic, and end up convinced by the internet medicine men, that they need to sacrifice a live rooster over their loading bench.
Great ammo does not require 3 sets of dies for one caliber, 4 measuring devices to set up dies, and 25 steps to perfection. Do what you are doing and don't do anything that affects the smooth functioning of your ammo. You will be fine.

 

[Boogaloo]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

The part about finding actual maximum case volume using water is one of the single most important steps in my opinion. but it would be extremely time consuming to do it with every piece of brass you have. I randomly pick 10 pieces of brass from each lot or batch of cases I have in the queue at the time.

I actually pop the spent primer on once fired (not resized) brass, then I use bar soap to plug the primer hole (you can just as easily use wax), and a chop stick down the case mouth to remove any extruded soap from inside the case after I force the soap through the primer hole from the pocket side. Then I weigh the individual case and zero the scale. From there I use distilled water and a syringe to fill the case until the tension (meniscus) is just slightly bulging out of the top of the case mouth while the case is sitting on the scale. I am careful to dab any drops of water off the sides of the case or that may have dripped onto the scale platter. This give me an accuracy of 1/10th of a grain of water.

I mark every measured weight on a piece of paper, and then when I have done that, I average the measurements and log that volume as the average for that case lot.

From there, I use QuickLoad to predict pressures based on that volume for the intended powder, bullet, seating depth and predicted temperature at the range for the day I plan on shooting.

Pressure changes fairly dramatically with certain powders based on case volume and temperature if you are already loading at or near max published specs and are using a temp sensitive powder, so I try to stay at least 5,000 psi below max pressure when working up near max loads.

One of the other things I think you should consider is that like the other poster stated, if your factory Remington is shooting .5 MOA out of the box, you hit the fucking lottery, because several factory Remington's I have loaded for recently have all shown that the chamber/throat is so long that you will never be able to seat a bullet on the lands with them. I have a brand new SPS tactical that will only allow me to get as close as .100" off the lands with any of several bullet choices I have in hand right now. It is a 1MOA gun at best. Needless to say it will be heading to Chad's place to have a new barrel and trued action here in less than a week.

 

[blackfoot]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Boogaloo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The part about finding actual maximum case volume using water is one of the single most important steps in my opinion. but it would be extremely time consuming to do it with every piece of brass you have. I randomly pick 10 pieces of brass from each lot or batch of cases I have in the queue at the time.

I actually pop the spent primer on once fired (not resized) brass, then I use bar soap to plug the primer hole (you can just as easily use wax), and a chop stick down the case mouth to remove any extruded soap from inside the case after I force the soap through the primer hole from the pocket side. Then I weigh the individual case and zero the scale. From there I use distilled water and a syringe to fill the case until the tension (meniscus) is just slightly bulging out of the top of the case mouth while the case is sitting on the scale. I am careful to dab any drops of water off the sides of the case or that may have dripped onto the scale platter. This give me an accuracy of 1/10th of a grain of water.

I mark every measured weight on a piece of paper, and then when I have done that, I average the measurements and log that volume as the average for that case lot.

From there, I use QuickLoad to predict pressures based on that volume for the intended powder, bullet, seating depth and predicted temperature at the range for the day I plan on shooting.

Pressure changes fairly dramatically with certain powders based on case volume and temperature if you are already loading at or near max published specs and are using a temp sensitive powder, so I try to stay at least 5,000 psi below max pressure when working up near max loads.

One of the other things I think you should consider is that like the other poster stated, if your factory Remington is shooting .5 MOA out of the box, you hit the fucking lottery, because several factory Remington's I have loaded for recently have all shown that the chamber/throat is so long that you will never be able to seat a bullet on the lands with them. I have a brand new SPS tactical that will only allow me to get as close as .100" off the lands with any of several bullet choices I have in hand right now. It is a 1MOA gun at best. Needless to say it will be heading to Chad's place to have a new barrel and trued action here in less than a week. </div></div>

Are you serious???

 

[scissorhands]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Thanks for the replies! I'm not to the point of weighing brass and weighing bullets. Dont know if I ever will be. I am very interested in getting my neck tension and neck straigtness up to par though...

cheers.. off to my first 300 F-TR match this Sunday. Wish me luck!

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

Awww screw it. Just get a damn lee collet die and be done with it. And why in the hell are you bumping your shoulder if there's no need too?? As long as it fits snug let em be. Over thinking shit makes shooting much less fun

 

[JWV]

Re: What am I not doing? (brass prep)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awww screw it. Just get a damn lee collet die and be done with it. And why in the hell are you bumping your shoulder if there's no need too?? As long as it fits snug let em be. Over thinking shit makes shooting much less fun </div></div>

Agreed. No lube and sizes necks very nicely. Also, bumping the shoulder is not necessary until chambering starts getting a little tight. You may end up getting some case head separation from frequent shoulder bumping. Although .002 is not a lot of bump.