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19 Delta sniper spot?

djblingbling1

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 3, 2004
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Oregon
Im thinking of re-enlisting in the national guard, and going 19D. I was reading that they can get a S/S slot, figured this site would give me a non BS answer.

Is that rare? It seems they would go 11B before 19D but I have no idea. I figured it may not be realistic but it seems a cool MOS regardless, just wanted to know if it was a possibility since I would love the opportunity to take the challenge.
 
yeah dude, it is rare, but if you go to a unit like the 173rd ABCT or 82nd, then it can happen. my old squadron, we sent about a dozen scouts to sniper school. I dunno if it'll pop up as an ASI on your MOS, but you'd get the training, and the certificate, so fuck it.

Being a scout is pretty damn badass, we get cooler toys than the infantry, and get to use vehicles. the real ticket is Airborne school. If you're a scout with airborne wings, you're going to get more opportunities to go to school. Hell, my Buddy Tex, he got his wings about a year before I did, and by the time I caught up, he had gone to sniper school, German Mountain Warfare school, and was halfway through Ranger school.

don't take this as a "You will get this if you enlist for this" thing, Tex was a Badass MotherFucker, and hardly anybody could keep up with that dude.
As for schools in NG, I'm pretty sure you're boned. Reenlist active duty.
 
yeah dude, it is rare, but if you go to a unit like the 173rd ABCT or 82nd, then it can happen. my old squadron, we sent about a dozen scouts to sniper school. I dunno if it'll pop up as an ASI on your MOS, but you'd get the training, and the certificate, so fuck it.

Being a scout is pretty damn badass, we get cooler toys than the infantry, and get to use vehicles. the real ticket is Airborne school. If you're a scout with airborne wings, you're going to get more opportunities to go to school. Hell, my Buddy Tex, he got his wings about a year before I did, and by the time I caught up, he had gone to sniper school, German Mountain Warfare school, and was halfway through Ranger school.

don't take this as a "You will get this if you enlist for this" thing, Tex was a Badass MotherFucker, and hardly anybody could keep up with that dude.
As for schools in NG, I'm pretty sure you're boned. Reenlist active duty.

So regardless of a sniper spot scout cav is cool?

I was 11b before and just wanted to do something a bit different.
 
So you have a thing for men in stetsons...? Or is it the spurs that tickle your pickle...?

Can you tell I have no respect for 19D-bags? Neither 11B nor 19D-bags have a skillset for use after you get out. Both also can either be "cool" jobs or shitty jobs, depending entirely on your unit and leadership; it's a gamble. If you're re-enlisting for the the benefits, pick an MOS that will give you a useful skill, or at a minimum one that means your duty is always in an air-conditioned office out of the elements. Then take your sign on bonus (which, in the past at least, is higher for most other MOS's), buy a kick ass rifle, and attend a Rifle's Only course, or any other precision rifle course you prefer. That will be just as much (or more) fun shooting wise, plus there's no sleeping outside with a bunch of smelly dudes.

Better yet, go Air Guard and fuck hot bitches instead of the nasty's that seem to fill every army post.
 
So you have a thing for men in stetsons...? Or is it the spurs that tickle your pickle...?

Can you tell I have no respect for 19D-bags? Neither 11B nor 19D-bags have a skillset for use after you get out. Both also can either be "cool" jobs or shitty jobs, depending entirely on your unit and leadership; it's a gamble. If you're re-enlisting for the the benefits, pick an MOS that will give you a useful skill, or at a minimum one that means your duty is always in an air-conditioned office out of the elements. Then take your sign on bonus (which, in the past at least, is higher for most other MOS's), buy a kick ass rifle, and attend a Rifle's Only course, or any other precision rifle course you prefer. That will be just as much (or more) fun shooting wise, plus there's no sleeping outside with a bunch of smelly dudes.

Better yet, go Air Guard and fuck hot bitches instead of the nasty's that seem to fill every army post.


HAHAHAHA thats proably the most solid advise I will get! That's kind of the downside, and why I regret going 11b before...no skillset for civilian life. I wouldnt mind doing some kind of mechanics stuff, although I read scout cav do work on their vehicles which has some apeal.
 
yeah dude, it's pretty fun. hell, if you wanted, there's infantry slots in the airborne cav units- about a third of our platoons are blue cords.
Heavy cav is pretty neat, at least back when we were DIVCAV with tanks and brads in the same troop. I showed up when the unit had a shit-ton of scouts but not enough tankers, so they put me in the Tank platoon.
I hear good things about Stryker Cav, but I made my money in the Airborne. we were just as tribal and bizarre as the Airborne Infantry, but I noticed a major difference in tactics between my scout platoon and our infantry platoons- whenever we'd get attacked, we would stand our ground, dump massive volumes of fire into the enemy positions, then advance with our vehicles on-line shredding everything in front of us. Our infantry brethren, differently trained as they are, would dismount and fuckin bum-rush the bad guys. it was bizarre to watch when we had been trained to use our crew served weps to establish fire superiority and then advance. Every time we asked them about it, they'd give us this look like "What the fuck would you do otherwise?!" and say something about taking ground.

it all comes down to two very different philosophies-
Armor branch destroys key enemy positions using fire, maneuver, and shock effect
Infantry Branch takes and holds key terrain features using maneuver and fire.

two completely different ways of cracking the egg, and neither is wrong. One's goal is to destroy the enemy and move on to the next patch of bad guys, while the other wants to not only kill the enemy, but take and hold the terrain upon which his enemy has died.


tell you what, read FM 3-20.98
if that shit strikes your fancy, go Cav.
 
I remember 19D as one of a couple MOS's being able to go to Benning. I don't know why you would need to change. I don't remember if that's changed since I've been out.

Airborne School WILL open up more opportunities for you, just like having a language listed on your ERB will do the same thing.

pdog has a point, but in my experience it's a hindrance when you're trying to actually work, and you get a stuck working with a chick who believes that she's entitled to not work(even though she's in the same military) because she's a woman, and you're a man. They're out there.

It sounds like you need a change of pace, not a total career change. Maybe you should just try to get to Airborne yourself right now, and see what opens up for you.
 
HAHAHAHA thats proably the most solid advise I will get! That's kind of the downside, and why I regret going 11b before...no skillset for civilian life. I wouldnt mind doing some kind of mechanics stuff, although I read scout cav do work on their vehicles which has some apeal.

yeah we worked on our vics, but that amounts to dick when you try to get somebody to take your word for it, like an auto shop.
if you're looking for shit that'll help you outside, pick a POG MOS. At least then you'll have time to wish you had access to programs like tuition assistance. Me, all I did was fuck shit up for 6 years, didn't have time to do correspondence courses or college or any of that.

That's what the Post-9/11 GI Bill is for.

So there's your choice. If you're really concerned about getting a marketable trade, then nix this pipe dream and trade in your blue cord.
Like Pdog says, if you just want to learn all that stuff, buy a kickass rifle and pay to go to a precision course.
 
yeah we worked on our vics, but that amounts to dick when you try to get somebody to take your word for it, like an auto shop.
if you're looking for shit that'll help you outside, pick a POG MOS. At least then you'll have time to wish you had access to programs like tuition assistance. Me, all I did was fuck shit up for 6 years, didn't have time to do correspondence courses or college or any of that.

That's what the Post-9/11 GI Bill is for.


So there's your choice. If you're really concerned about getting a marketable trade, then nix this pipe dream and trade in your blue cord.
Like Pdog says, if you just want to learn all that stuff, buy a kickass rifle and pay to go to a precision course.

Honestly im less worried about skills and more up for a new challenge. I already have a decent job with benefits, and a family, so im less concerned with job skills and pussy and more wanting to do awesome new things you CANT do as a civilian.

Maybe ill not get my hopes up on the sniper tab and just use the enlistment bonus to buy a good long range setup for fun.
 
well alright then. if you're wanting to stay NG, then you're going to have to get REAL friendly with your S-3 Schools NCO, because as far as I'm aware, those slots are few and far between even for acctive units. half of my Squadron's sniper platoon never got slots (and we were both active and had priority), so they just sent NCOs and senior specialists, those soldiers then brought that knowledge back with them and trained their joes.
 
Heavy cav is pretty neat, at least back when we were DIVCAV with tanks and brads in the same troop. I showed up when the unit had a shit-ton of scouts but not enough tankers, so they put me in the Tank platoon.

Yeah, I got to be loader on a tank in Korea (last of the M60A3 before they transitioned to M1's) during gunnery once since they were short of DATs (A Troop 4/7 Cav). One of the few times I "volunteered" for something (and I got to pop off a few main gun rounds). Good experience but working on a tank sucks. Changing road wheels and track are too much effort. Our scouts had M113's and M901's and they were much easier to work on (and much more room for sleeping). You don't really learn to be a "mechanic" as an "Armored" scout per se, but you do learn how to operate a grease gun and turn a wrench to pull the pack out pretty quick. I drove a M551 for a couple of years out at NTC and those things broke down so much I could have the Engine out and on the rack in about 20 min I had so much practice. I worked as an OC on the Ft Irwin live fire range and even got the opportunity to shoot an M1A1 when 1st Cav came through on a rotation.

As I recall the 19D10 Scout Manual was about 2 or 3 times as thick as the 11B10 manual. Lots more tasks to learn and as long as you have the GT score for it... Never really met a "dumb" scout, but can't say the same thing for the tankers...

I always wanted to go 93B (Aero Scout Observer) but got out and went college instead. Lots more money in being a Plastics Engineer...

Once a Scout, always a Scout!

Garry Owen!
 
nice dude, I only got about eight months of heavy before I went light, so all of my experience was with Humvees... my NCOs spent the whole time telling me how much fun Gunnery was, and then one day they came in and said "Well it looks like us and the tanks are leaving, you little scouts are going to jump out of airplanes now". sort of anticlimactic.
But as much as carrying a 240B through the valleys of Paktika sucked, I'd rather have done that than sit behind some desk putting up with retards.
 
I don't know shit about any of this but as I am not in the military but wonder if the budget cuts that are just about to hit will affect training opportunities. Just a thought.
 
But as much as carrying a 240B through the valleys of Paktika sucked, I'd rather have done that than sit behind some desk putting up with retards.

Aint that the truth... When I was at Irwin I was in A Co, Operation Group. We had about 50 19D to drive the tracks for the live fire range (they got tracks after some Major got hit with a .50 cal sitting in his jeep), 20 Combat Engineers to operate the dozers/heavy equipment buildng shit and about 500 REMFs (literally, everyone was "attached" to Ops Grp except the HQ staff). Although it was nice that we had the female medics on the floor above us in the baracks. ;) They never understood why we would ask to go do missions in the desert with the OPFOR instead of sitting in the baracks. It's just what Scouts like to do... I remember telling my recruiter that "I want to shoot machine guns and blow stuff up" and he said he had just the MOS for me... :cool:

(Cool! This was my 100th post. Now I can sell shit on here too.)
 
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I don't know shit about any of this but as I am not in the military but wonder if the budget cuts that are just about to hit will affect training opportunities. Just a thought.

Fuck Yeah it is. my buddies are training their soldiers with dime drills and hip-pocket training now. No money for MRX or Gunnery, only deploying units get that luxury now. Dude, we barely got one MRX/Gunnery rotation a year when they were throwing cash at us. takes a lot of ammo and cash to send even just a light unit through, and light units don't require Railhead ops!
 
Aint that the truth... When I was at Irwin I was in A Co, Operation Group. We had about 50 19D to drive the tracks for the live fire range (they got tracks after some Major got hit with a .50 cal sitting in his jeep), 20 Combat Engineers to operate the dozers/heavy equipment buildng shit and about 500 REMFs (literally, everyone was "attached" to Ops Grp except the HQ staff). Although it was nice that we had the female medics on the floor above us in the baracks. ;) They never understood why we would ask to go do missions in the desert with the OPFOR instead of sitting in the baracks. It's just what Scouts like to do... I remember telling my recruiter that "I want to shoot machine guns and blow stuff up" and he said he had just the MOS for me... :cool:

(Cool! This was my 100th post. Now I can sell shit on here too.)

did you ever use the 240/50 cal MILES gear trick? duct tape the 240 MILES transmitter on top of an M2's transmitter and the dual signal turns it into a notional "Artillery piece".... good times.
 
Fun job in the Army National Guard? Hah, that's a laugh! Maybe in an aviation unit...
Most fun I've had with the Guard was a the Light Leaders Course hosted by BORTAC. Gave everyone 1000 rounds of both 5.56 and 9mm and we shot for 2 weeks straight... followed by the advanced marksmanship school, which I couldn't attend :( The program has since been scrapped due to budget cuts and we cant even afford to pay the full time guys 5 days a week.

You want to do something different I suggest Coast Gaurd and keep the guns at home. Of course I'm just speculating as I have no idea how active the Coast Guard is. I just know the guard is boring as fuck.
 
Depending on the place, USCG gets to do cool shit. they chase pirates and shoot up derelicts here.
 
did you ever use the 240/50 cal MILES gear trick? duct tape the 240 MILES transmitter on top of an M2's transmitter and the dual signal turns it into a notional "Artillery piece".... good times.

Never heard that one. We were OCs (Observer/Controlers) and had the god guns and green keys... The best toy I had with miles was using a jumper wire inside the connector plug on a 50 cal miles transmitter (don't remember which two pins) but it turned the laser on constant. Wave it at soft skin vehicle's/light armor and it would kill them without shooting blanks. It was great on night patrols with NVGs. ;)
 
nice. the 240/50 cal trick, don't ask me how it works, basically puts out the same signal as a 120MM main gun or something, all I knew was that nothing could beat it... but you had to make sure nobody saw that rig, or the OCs with 1/4 inf would get their panties in a bunch.
 
The National Guard is what you make it. Hold your nose to the grind wheel, learn to sell your self, and you can write your own ticket.

I joined as an E-4, made E-5 by enlisting in a SF Company as an Light Weapons Sgt. (The 38th SF company which was disbanned before I could get to the Q Course) It was converted to an Airborne Lt Recon Unit Worked my way up to E-7 before I went to OCS.

BSed my way into sniper school (USAMU) by selling the ideal of a sniper program for the Alaska National Guard. Started shooting high power and turned that in to running the AK NG Marksmanship Program. I learned to create a budget and more important, to sell a budget.

In selling the budget its not hard to get the money, but keeping it was a different program. The powers to be OKed the budget with the idea of taking my money for their pet programs. I learned how to freeze the funds by cutting orders way in advanced.

Equipment is a different matter. Yeah I got the funds to buy what I needed but I had a friend in USPF&O who would tell me what money was left that had to be spent prior to loosing it at the end of the physical year.

I'd buy what I needed with that money and then had to jump through hoops finding something to buy with the money I had been given when my budget was improved.

I took rifle and pistol teams all over the country to different matches. Conducted sniper and machine gun schools for the NG and the RA from Fort Richardson & Wainwright.

We got ammo when the larger states weren't getting it, that was because of my ability to create a budget. In stead of saying I needed X bullet, I would itemize my list, accounting for where every bullet was going. How many shooters and how many matches, and how much ammo needed for that match. Same with practice sessions.

The NGB liked my ideas on ammo and I was put on orders to go to Little Rock to write an (marksmanship) ammo policy.

Like I said, the Guard is what you make it. Be smart, and you can write your own ticket.
 
I agree with what kraig said, the Guard is completely what you make of it.
My initial training was for 19D, and assigned to an Mechanized Infantry Brigade. Scout is a pretty great gig for the most part, and Scouts definately get better toys than the line infantry guys by far. Infantry All that said, I switched up to 11b to move to the battalions sniper section, and had I not done this i would have never gone to Sniper School. This is in a big way because of my states budget. Budget is tight, schools are tight. So if you live in a state where they got a big budget and are commonly sending guys to hooah schools like AA and AB a lot, you could probably pull sniper in a 19d slot. I had heard a rumor that the schoolhouses all went back to 11B only though so you might want to check that out . A little research into what kind of unit youd under would behove you as some units have significantly more slots in their sniper section i.e. HBCT has 10 SBCT has 42. If youre up for reenlistment why not just tell them you want to move to the sniper section if thats your end goal?
 
First off 19D is a Cav Scout. There is nothing special about a Cav Scout. You can walk into a recruiters office and become a Cav Scout. You don't tryout to become a Cav Scout, you just go to basic and AIT and you are one.

An Infantry Scout/Sniper is something you have to tryout for or be selected. Usually senior E4's from the line are asked to come tryout, and then hand selected by the E6 team leaders, PSG, PL, 1SG, and SGM.

The Scout/Sniper platoon usually has priority over all schools in the battalion. Slots are always there, funding is not. NG has the same school opportunities that active does, funding is what plays a role in going or not. Also it depends on what your slot is coded. If you are not in an airborne unit, the chances of that unit sending you to that school is slim to none. If you are in a Infantry Scout platoon and your slot is coded as a "golf" or in a sniper slot, then Ranger and Sniper school will be available for you, if funding is there.

As for the post above that Cav Scouts get cooler "toys" than the Infantry, if by trucks and spending all your time in the motor pool, then yeah they get cooler "toys". Maybe they are talking about the M2 or Mk19 mounted to their turrets as cool toys, not sure. 19D recon from vehicles for other vehicles, that is their job. The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack.

If you are in the Infantry and want to step it up, tryout for SF or the Infantry scout/sniper platoon.

Going 19D would be like banging a chic, then switching to a fatter slower version of her.
 
gotta love the rivalry. if I had to do it over again, I'd still go 19D, but the reasoning would be slightly different. We huffed just as much gear over just as many mountains as the rest of the Infantry Battalion to which we were attached, but did it with an M-TOE platoon half the size. Our platoon amounted to an infantry MG squad- 2 240 teams, 2 SAW teams, 4 SDMs, section leaders, PL, PSG, Medic, and an FO.

The things that really sell it are, considering the ending of the ground campaigns, in the past. Those being the following-
1: The 2004-2006 build-up of the Armor branch. we went from having Brigade Recon Troops, DIVCAV Squadrons, and ACRs, to a RSTA Squadron per brigade and these newfangled battlefield surveillance components built into MI Brigades (don't ask me what the hell they do, CSM Troxell was never fully clear on their mission, I only know they're small and have no vehicles except brigade-tasked Shithooks and Crashhawks). These factors meant that because of the smaller size of the Armor Branch, anybody in the 19 series with jump wings got to do a shit-ton of schools. Hell, they even pushed guys through an 11 day Jump School in 2009 to get more of us certified.
2: the sheer unadulterated magnificence of unleashing anti-armor missiles on enemy dismounts. There are times when carrying a huge-ass javelin missile on your back sucks, and then there's the one time when one of your Troop's section leaders, much to the Taliban's dismay, discovers that they'll not only lock onto vehicles, but also humans. same with TOWs, but they're wire-guided, so it doesn't matter. You know something was too awesome when your BC comes down on TACSAT with a statement like "Unless it is a Tank, or Osama Bin Laden Himself, you are no longer authorized to use Javelins."
 
Glad you got to play Infantry, a lot cooler than being a 19D isn't it?

Funny that is all the non-Infantry guys talk about when asked what they did overseas or what their job is. "Oh we did Infantry stuff, or we are basically Infantry."


And yeah Javelins are fun for destroying qalats and other non tank stuff, never like jumping them though.
 
Not really, the Infantry Battalion Commander wouldn't let us roll out like we're supposed to (teams of 2-5). But the second go-around when my troop was with our Squadron, they let us loose in six-man teams. The reason my BC the first time gave when he shut down our three man OP plans was that he had let it happen before and the team's OP was compromised and they were killed. Learned a real neat trick right after that though- send out a 12 man patrol (the BC's minimum allowed) and just set up 3 or 4 different OPs.
 
of course, when rolling out like that we didn't give a rat's ass about taking and holding terrain, that's the infantry's job. we were screening the Pak Border region, monitoring the major infil routes, and interdicting using air and indirect assets. we left the roving in massive packs looking for shit to fuck up to the infantry, or to our other platoons who remained mounted. A typical mission would consist of air-inserting one of our platoons right on the border, and then sending the other two platoons mounted to push the bad guys into the dismounted screen, who would then neutralize them using their 60mm mortar, AWT, and Arty.

though it is pretty interesting seeing the difference between the mentalities of Cav and Infantry-
Infantry are definitely focused more on terrain, taking and holding it, and killing any bad guys in it.
Cav is fluid, we'll take and hold terrain when need be, but our focus is more denying the enemy freedom of maneuver and denying him key terrain while providing intel and flank security for the parent organization.

When Cav and Infantry are working together, it's a thing of beauty- we find the bad guys, infantry actions on them, bad shit happens to bad people, and we all go back to digging at each other with such quips as "Fuck you, Baby-Tankers" and "Infantry SMASH!!!" until the next time shit needs to get done.
 
Let me state again. in the NG you can write your own ticket. If you're a good salesmen you can accomplish just about anything.

If you don't have the "correct" MOS to do what you want, then change it. All units are assigned bodies and MOS on paragraphs and line numbers. That basically tells you what slots are open and in what MOS.

OK, lets assume you don't have an infantry MOS and there isn't a Para-Line Number in your unit for a 11B. Change it. Your state OTAG G-3 is in charge of Para-Line numbers.

Get your ducks in order, come up with a reason you should have a 11B and sniper if that's what you want. (Use a bit of imagination) develop a plan, then take the G-3 to lunch and present your case. If you are a salesmen (or bullshitter, what ever you want to call it) you can pull it of.

When I was OIC of the State Marksmanship unit, all my slots were infantry. OK Infantry guys who can shoot and instruct make good candidates for a marksmanship unit. Problem was, there is tons of paper work also. I needed a clerk. I wrote a justification why I needed a clerk, listing all the paper work I was required to keep and over a beer, got my TO&E changed to switch a para-line number to include a L (what we called clerks in them days).

Same thing with an armor. Some silly regulations said I couldn't keep gun parts because I didn't have an armor. I didn't want to have to deadline a M14 just because it needed an new gas system. No biggy, I recruited a supply guy from the Air Guard, changed the para-line number to make an armor/supply guy, and sent him to school building NM M14s and NM 1911a1s. Not only did I end up with a supply guy, I got a NM armor and commenced to ordering and stock piling parts.

It works in line companies too. Alaska had a silly rule that you had to be an E-6 to go to OCS, we had a pretty sharp E-4 we wanted to take over as a section leader. A bit of fancy paper work, two quick promotions and we had an OCS candidate. Must have worked out, that same sharp E-4 is now the AK State AG.

You can do just about anything you want, learn salesmanship and have a bit of imagination.

You'd be supprised of the crap I pulled off in my 19 years in the guard after I was told it couldn't be done.
 
Lots of good advice....I have been out of the guard for a few years, so its not just extending, I would have to completely re-enlist.

I guess a better question might be, what are the things to push for as far as goals to help me in getting a S/S slot?

ASVAB score, PT score, ect.

May as well set my goals high and see what happens, not that im terribly set in getting certain scores, id rather just work my ass off, and get the best scores I can. I know when I took the asvab before I did well enough that I wasnt too limited by it...I dont remember it being particularly challenging. PT has never been an issue for me, although I had run cross country in high school and joined up at 17 so I was probably better at running than I am now, but im still pretty active, and after a few months of running im sure id be back to where I was...as far as crunches, pushups, and pullups I have no issue, I can pretty much do them until the tester gets tired.
 
When I started the sniper program for the AK NG, I had to write a paper for the commanders in how to pick a candidate for sniper school.

The main criteria was motivation. You need a guy who you can count on to work alone without supervision. Someone dedicated to the mission. You need to weed out those "ghost" who might move out hunker down and wait it out. Self Motivation is the biggest criteria. Field craft was handy, nothing fancy, simple soldier skills.

Marksmanship abilities is handy, but I could teach someone to shoot. If some one was to ask me now what would be the best study guide, I'd say FM 21-75, Individual Soldier and Patrolling, next would be the USAMU Service Rifle Guide. Map reading is extremely important, not just for navigation but range estimating. I don't mean how to use a GPS, I mean a map and compass.

That was for the commanders, its salesmanship that gets you there.
 
Jeez Kraig, what haven't you done, and when are you making a book version?
 
Hey what can I say, at 65 I couldn't "ghost by" all the time.

The book thing, yeh, for my kids to read when I'm gone.
 
Totally understand, as long as somebody remembers. I'd hate for the world to lose that kind of experience.
 
So far I've read good advice in here, and some bad advice. Definitely some agendas.

If you want real-time advice from guys who are still in as Scouts, check out CavalryScouts.org

I'm no longer a member there as I got over the need to shoot the crap, but there are plenty of Scouts over there. From Vietnam vets of the 11D mos, to guys who just graduated.

As for Scouts vs Infantry, it really depends on the unit. The main foci/duties of the Scout are Recon and Security. You reconnoiter the objective for the unit and then provide security once they are established. Often, this means just doing the same thing: OP's, screenlines, etc. Patrols are also done, and depending on the needs of the unit commander one indeed might act as nothing more than in an Infantry role. Sometimes that infantry action is because the commander quite literally has no idea as to how to use his Scouts. Seen the same thing with the Snipers. Your primary weapon is the radio. Being seen and needing to engage, in a traditional Scout mission, is indicative of something going very wrong. However, do not look forward to "traditional" Scout missions these days. Pretty much only in training will this occur, with overseas work maybe seeing it a few times if never, or a lot, depending on the sector.

As for Sniper slots, when I was in 3-69AR/1BCT/3ID, they primarily went to the 11B's. The Snipers were attached to the Scout platoon, due to the nature of their particular foci. The 11B's were previously filler due to lack of 19D and when the slots came down the slots went to the 11B's. Had we no 11B, I assume the slots would have gone to 19D as 19D can and do go to Sniper School. When I was in 4-10CAV/3BCT/4ID, the sniper slots went to 19D and 11C. Why 11C, I have no idea. But for their branch designator are they really Infantry anymore than a 13F is really Arty.

What I would do, since you are going NG, is go talk to the actual unit to which you will be assigned. Talk to both the PSG and the Sniper section SGT. Do they need more guys? Do you bring anything to the table where they can say, "yes, we need guys and YOU seem like a great asset"? Unless something has changed, Sniper school is not a contracted slot. Even more, are they actually doing training or is it just a thing where they go sit at the armory and watch EO videos on how not to rape a cow with a 3-day facial hair growth?

Scouts run the gamut from armor unit assignments to abn. I personally, thankfully, have no time in a Bradley/CFV (Cavalry Fighting Vehicle). I know "grunts" with more seat time than Scouts, and I know Scouts who have gone through more boot soles than many career Infantry. The coolness of the toys might be an m4 versus the m16, or it might mean your unit has the budget and unit-level leadership to use it in a manner which makes you wonder if you bypassed selection as far as the kit issued. I don't see the latter as a potential in the NG.

In the end, despite your initial thoughts, this site can provide no more real info on 19D's than it can provide on Rangers or SF or the local knitting club. You need to seek out those who actually do it and more importantly those with whom you will be doing it: the unit of your future assignment if you contract.

All you will find here is nuggets of truth amidst the turds of swirling invective, information which is a year or two old, or which is current but based on a situation far different from your potential situation.

Go talk to the unit of your assignment and see what their Sniper section has to say. If you don't make the cut, or they don't need you, is the Scout platoon one in which you feel you can thrive and have a good time or contribute? There's plenty of Scout platoons I'm very glad I was never a member of, and plenty of Sniper sections that I know the Snipers/Scouts (not Scout Snipers) were glad they were not a part of. Only you can make the determination on the particular unit in which you may potentially do the job.

Again, for the internet, check out CavalryScouts.org; abide by their forum rules, introduction guidelines, etc. Be respectful. They don't care if you were a grunt. You are looking to be a Scout. If the members that I knew there are still active, you will have the opportunity to converse with 19D's who HAVE gone to Sniper school and who HAVE done the job.
 
Someone very close to me is currently serving with the 82nd ABN, 5/73rd. He is 11B, the day before Christmas Exodus, an Lt. walks up "We've got 2 slots, you want one? Starts tomorrow.".

297 on latest PT, highest ASVAB in Squadron, YMMV.


Tip: Don't do it in July or August.
Good luck.
 
Someone very close to me is currently serving with the 82nd ABN, 5/73rd. He is 11B, the day before Christmas Exodus, an Lt. walks up "We've got 2 slots, you want one? Starts tomorrow.".

297 on latest PT, highest ASVAB in Squadron, YMMV.


Tip: Don't do it in July or August.
Good luck.

I went to Benning twice in August (basic training and sniper school)..... humid hot mess.
 
Someone very close to me is currently serving with the 82nd ABN, 5/73rd. He is 11B, the day before Christmas Exodus, an Lt. walks up "We've got 2 slots, you want one? Starts tomorrow.".

297 on latest PT, highest ASVAB in Squadron, YMMV.


Tip: Don't do it in July or August.
Good luck.

Hell yeah! best of luck to him.
 
So you have a thing for men in stetsons...? Or is it the spurs that tickle your pickle...?

Can you tell I have no respect for 19D-bags? Neither 11B nor 19D-bags have a skillset for use after you get out. Both also can either be "cool" jobs or shitty jobs, depending entirely on your unit and leadership; it's a gamble. If you're re-enlisting for the the benefits, pick an MOS that will give you a useful skill, or at a minimum one that means your duty is always in an air-conditioned office out of the elements. Then take your sign on bonus (which, in the past at least, is higher for most other MOS's), buy a kick ass rifle, and attend a Rifle's Only course, or any other precision rifle course you prefer. That will be just as much (or more) fun shooting wise, plus there's no sleeping outside with a bunch of smelly dudes.

Better yet, go Air Guard and fuck hot bitches instead of the nasty's that seem to fill every army post.

Yeah...rifles only course > sniper school.


.......seriously?
 
Not really, the Infantry Battalion Commander wouldn't let us roll out like we're supposed to (teams of 2-5). But the second go-around when my troop was with our Squadron, they let us loose in six-man teams. The reason my BC the first time gave when he shut down our three man OP plans was that he had let it happen before and the team's OP was compromised and they were killed. Learned a real neat trick right after that though- send out a 12 man patrol (the BC's minimum allowed) and just set up 3 or 4 different OPs.

Deleted after being reminded that this is an open forum.

I will just say that your commander was smart for not letting you run around Astan as a 2 man team and leave it at that.
 
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eh, we did it regardless. wasn't like we were in a superhot sector at the time.
 
besides, we're not infantry, we don't operate like infantry because it's not our job and we don't have the manpower to do so in the first place.. we were sitting on top of a ridgeline watching infil routes and calling for fire on bad guys, not actively moving to contact. thats what we do.
 
2-man team would be odd, and dangerous, as Victory said. Without getting into it in detail, what Anvil_X is describing is not out of character though, but with more guys and an interlocking setup of OPs. Hell, the FM is online for anyone to read. Scout platoons are often understaffed and he's correct in that we don't operate like Infantry. A minimum of 12 men negates the Scouts' ability to move easily and without detection or at least minimal amounts of it. Splitting off and setting up is common, and that's no secret for anyone or anything.

12 dudes in a concentrated area makes an OP not an OP, but a sitting mini-AA. Commanders need to get over the idea of losing guys, and should really get a crash course in implementation of their recon assets or trust the PL who has been to SLC. Working in small groups and without much in the way of backup is drilled into Scouts from day one. It doesn't bother us, and if the members are mature and have solid leadership it presents no issue. One must decide if they want to be effective or have the illusion of safety. Rarely do the two coincide. Outside of certain differences, the Scout and the Sniper are indistinguishable insofar as foundational mission characteristics, and it has been my experience in working with the attached Snipers that their operational work was the same thing but with the Gucci call sign. Of course, this will change from unit to unit and section to section.

Flexibility is the key. An inflexible commander is misusing his recon assets, be they 19D or 11B, and regardless of if they have a bolt gun on tap.

FWIW, my experiences are solely in Iraq 2005 and late 2007-2008 so I'll leave the arguing over A-stan to guys who've been there.
 
LOL, If you can find one piece of doctrine that teaches you to go out in 2 man teams that isn't from the Vietnam era, I want to see it. Pushing a 2 man surveilance team up from a hide site isn't running around in 2man teams, hell HKT's don't even use 2 men anymore.

Perfect example of 19D right there. Put them through a basic and AIT that focuses on fighting from and performing reconasaince from a vehicle, and they think they are RSLC graduates. Did you hump your LRAS up on those ridgelines? Thanks for the laugh.
 
Jon I'm pretty sure spending time in a hide site with you would have been enjoyable. Too bad our paths never crossed while you were still in, you would have fit into the Infanty quite well.

Plus you wouldn't have had to wear that ghey stetson. ;-)
 
did you ever use the 240/50 cal MILES gear trick? duct tape the 240 MILES transmitter on top of an M2's transmitter and the dual signal turns it into a notional "Artillery piece".... good times.

I saw this and had to laugh. When I was at Irwin we took the .50 cal laser and attached it to the M60. We had two of those and every one else had Dragon missiles. There were 9 of us and we sat on Hill Top 409, f'd up everyone who came through. The M60 with the .50 laser was a Bradley killer. The 2 M60 gunners would run down the hill side and get behind the Bradleys and start shooting. That stupid yellow light would start flashing.

I was 11B. My brother was 19D and his nephew in law was a 19D. From the sounds of it 19D has changed a lot compared to how they were when he went, in the mid 80s.
[MENTION=3238]djblingbling1[/MENTION]
As some one else mentioned do some research of what NG units are in your area or how far you are willing to travel. I have met people on planes going to weekend drill because they wanted to be in a certain unit. Also, I don't know if they still do this, but some Civil Affair units (USAR) you are able to go to Airborne and Ranger schools because of the regular Army unit they are attached to. Might be an idea to do that and use it as a stepping stone onto something else. However, they do not have sniper slot for CA. Good luck!


Wanted to add this 364th Civil Affairs Brigade (Airborne) is in Portland.
 
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2-man team would be odd, and dangerous, as Victory said. Without getting into it in detail, what Anvil_X is describing is not out of character though, but with more guys and an interlocking setup of OPs. Hell, the FM is online for anyone to read. Scout platoons are often understaffed and he's correct in that we don't operate like Infantry. A minimum of 12 men negates the Scouts' ability to move easily and without detection or at least minimal amounts of it. Splitting off and setting up is common, and that's no secret for anyone or anything.

12 dudes in a concentrated area makes an OP not an OP, but a sitting mini-AA. Commanders need to get over the idea of losing guys, and should really get a crash course in implementation of their recon assets or trust the PL who has been to SLC. Working in small groups and without much in the way of backup is drilled into Scouts from day one. It doesn't bother us, and if the members are mature and have solid leadership it presents no issue. One must decide if they want to be effective or have the illusion of safety. Rarely do the two coincide. Outside of certain differences, the Scout and the Sniper are indistinguishable insofar as foundational mission characteristics, and it has been my experience in working with the attached Snipers that their operational work was the same thing but with the Gucci call sign. Of course, this will change from unit to unit and section to section.

Flexibility is the key. An inflexible commander is misusing his recon assets, be they 19D or 11B, and regardless of if they have a bolt gun on tap.

FWIW, my experiences are solely in Iraq 2005 and late 2007-2008 so I'll leave the arguing over A-stan to guys who've been there.

nailed it on the head. Sorry I forgot to mention exact details on the 2-3 guy OP thing, just to elaborate so that y'all don't think I'm talking about doing "Call of Duty" stupid crap, we would depart the COP, make a night movement in two six-man sections parallel to one another about 200 meters apart, get to the top of the ridgeline, and set three man OPs along the ridgeline with about 600 meters between the farthest two. next evening we'd set a platoon patrol base, then depending on what was going on, we'd move to another ridgeline and do it all over again. No, we were not being stupid about it, if thats what you're getting at, Vic.
 
So you have a thing for men in stetsons...? Or is it the spurs that tickle your pickle...?

Can you tell I have no respect for 19D-bags? Neither 11B nor 19D-bags have a skillset for use after you get out. Both also can either be "cool" jobs or shitty jobs, depending entirely on your unit and leadership; it's a gamble. If you're re-enlisting for the the benefits, pick an MOS that will give you a useful skill, or at a minimum one that means your duty is always in an air-conditioned office out of the elements. Then take your sign on bonus (which, in the past at least, is higher for most other MOS's), buy a kick ass rifle, and attend a Rifle's Only course, or any other precision rifle course you prefer. That will be just as much (or more) fun shooting wise, plus there's no sleeping outside with a bunch of smelly dudes.

Better yet, go Air Guard and fuck hot bitches instead of the nasty's that seem to fill every army post.[/QUOTE



Never thought I would read the recommendation on a site like this for some one to change thier MOS to POG.
 
So you have a thing for men in stetsons...? Or is it the spurs that tickle your pickle...?

Can you tell I have no respect for 19D-bags? Neither 11B nor 19D-bags have a skillset for use after you get out. Both also can either be "cool" jobs or shitty jobs, depending entirely on your unit and leadership; it's a gamble. If you're re-enlisting for the the benefits, pick an MOS that will give you a useful skill, or at a minimum one that means your duty is always in an air-conditioned office out of the elements. Then take your sign on bonus (which, in the past at least, is higher for most other MOS's), buy a kick ass rifle, and attend a Rifle's Only course, or any other precision rifle course you prefer. That will be just as much (or more) fun shooting wise, plus there's no sleeping outside with a bunch of smelly dudes.

Better yet, go Air Guard and fuck hot bitches instead of the nasty's that seem to fill every army post.[/QUOTE



Never thought I would read the recommendation on a site like this for some one to change thier MOS to POG.

same thing I was thinking... I respect all branches of the military, all MOS's and everyone's decision to serve. BUT, when an individual attacks a profession that serves on the front line... I write em
off like the bitch they are...
 
LOL, If you can find one piece of doctrine that teaches you to go out in 2 man teams that isn't from the Vietnam era, I want to see it. Pushing a 2 man surveilance team up from a hide site isn't running around in 2man teams, hell HKT's don't even use 2 men anymore.

Perfect example of 19D right there. Put them through a basic and AIT that focuses on fighting from and performing reconasaince from a vehicle, and they think they are RSLC graduates. Did you hump your LRAS up on those ridgelines? Thanks for the laugh.

He misspoke. He was attempting to describe what I described. The OPs indeed can hold 2 men minimum, depending on operational needs. We do not focus on conducting vehicle recon, and that is just a part of it. Because of the switch to the Armor branch in the 1970's, 11D became 19D. This exacerbated certain things outside of their normal, traditional role. Again, I know 11B's with more seat time in a Bradley/IFV than Scouts in a CFV and know Scouts with more time on their feet than grunts. I don't know why the Infantry seem to forget the following little tidbit: the experience of 11M, before they were morphed into the larger 11B community, is not regarded as not-Infantry, just a different mode. Same with the Scouts. The 11ACR utilized both dismounted and mounted Scouts and Infantry in Vietnam, with the 11D's being mounted on M113s. When the switch came around in the 1970's, there were still Air Mobile units, and the fellow I know who is a graduate of Sniper school from back in the day experienced his first unit riding around in Hueys, jumping off and humping it to their objective. One of my PSGs experienced his first unit as well in an Air Mobile attachment based out of Hunter Army Airfield. Also knew some old school guys who'd ridden the dirt bikes out of Ft. Ord, CA. The military has simply changed.

If one reads Clancy's non-fiction book, Armored Cav, they will see where the real break in the mounted to dismounted bit came in: 73 Easting. That experience in DS/DS coalesced competing ideas swirling around in the Armor community as to the nature/role of Scouts. The Bradley provides thermal capability and damaging firepower. A library could be written on this subject, but suffice it to say that the Armor commanders started erroneously seeing their Scouts, if they possessed Bradleys, as "baby tankers". The epithet is still thrown around to those Scouts in Bradleys by their dismounted or humvee riding brethren. Colonel HR McMaster's Scouts did something at 73 Easting that Scouts are not supposed to do: engage a technically superior fighting force without need. It was their vehicles, Bradleys, which allowed this no-no to occur and from then on the Scout was seen as a shock force who also sent back recon info. Bad. Not our job. Leave that to the Marines or whomever.

Slowly, the Army has been correcting this and as we see in the standing up of the various Squadrons in 73rd Cavalry Regiment in the 82nd, the airborne/walking Scout is not a thing of the past. Perhaps one day they will even realize the need for a specific Cavalry branch, as used to be, or will merge the 19D's back into their rightful place of 11D. 91st Cavalry, also Abn and attached to the 173rd ABN, serves as an example in the European command. 61st and 33rd Cavalry in the 101st also are without Bradleys and are either hoofing it or riding in trucks like their Infantry brethren within the Division. In 4ID a Squadron of 61st Cavalry is in the 4BCT, the light brigade for the 4ID. All these units, from 73rd on, have 11B's filling the ranks or acting in Infantry roles for their troops. Personally, I found the 19D-saturated Squadron of 4-10Cav to be distasteful. 300+ Scouts are simply not going to do Scout work unless acting as Div Recon, like 3/7 Cav did for 3ID. We became land owners and I could see no difference in effectiveness from Infantry or Tankers who were given trucks. Such a role is simply not the bread and butter of the Scout.

An LRAS3 atop a ridgeline is doable and has been done, though I don't know about combat. Whatever the TF is in the 11ACR OPFOR, TF Angel?, they would be flown in to ridges at NTC and do "dismounted" OP's utilizing LRAS3. It was absolutely brutal on BLUFOR. Since Astan is more in line with such a method, I assume it can be done there. Personally, I would not wish to hump the thing up a mountain with all that goes with it, but if you're being dropped on top of a ridge that is virtually inaccessible by foot I see no issue. At that time only indirect fires would be a problem. Scouts do have other tools at their disposal and those tools, while not the awesome sauce of the LRAS3, can be and are effective if used correctly.



Jon I'm pretty sure spending time in a hide site with you would have been enjoyable. Too bad our paths never crossed while you were still in, you would have fit into the Infanty quite well.

Plus you wouldn't have had to wear that ghey stetson. ;-)

I suffered a spur ride for that Stetson and the Spurs to go with it. Tons of history there, but that's another topic. I will say that my team on the spur ride had our 11A- Ranger-tabbed new PL on it. He'd had time as a PL in the Infantry already and becoming the Scout PL was a promotion for future assignment as a Captain. He ended up going to Selection instead of staying 11A and I believe he made it if memory serves. At one point near the end I asked him what he thought of the spur ride. His response was that it was a lot tougher than he thought it would be and it reminded him of a few of the harder days in Ranger School. One of the spur holders conducting the ride was an 11C who'd earned his spurs in the 82nd. The only one who quit the ride with a complaint about a sandy orifice was an 11B. Anecdotal, surely, but food for thought. I'll keep the Stetson.

*tips brim*
 
Im thinking of re-enlisting in the national guard, and going 19D. I was reading that they can get a S/S slot, figured this site would give me a non BS answer.

Is that rare? It seems they would go 11B before 19D but I have no idea. I figured it may not be realistic but it seems a cool MOS regardless, just wanted to know if it was a possibility since I would love the opportunity to take the
challenge.

since the guard has the chaffe school in Arkansas it may be a possibility. 19d will not be awarded the asi b4. however you can still complete school. I was in a cav unit and still all our snipers where 11b but you never know man. I know some 19d's that are qualified.