GAP-10 & FGMM Ammo

[powereng]

I originally started a thread in the reloading section about the results of my ladder test with some of my reloads, but it sort of turned into a thread about issues I've been having with pierced primers and my 308 GAP-10.

Original thread here:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=178699

To re-cap my first 100 rounds through the rifle where all factory FGMM 175gr SMK's. Of those rounds about 50 percent of them experienced pierced primers. I switched over to a different lot of FGMM, and although I've experenced no pierced primers, I do have heavy cratering of the primer. The few reloads that I have tried have all experienced a mix of heavy cratering and pierced primers. All the heat and blow back from the pierced primers have left my firing pin a pitted mess. When I talked to GAP last week they said it sounded like an ammo issue.

Two weeks ago I sent the remaining lot of FGMM that I had originally experienced all the pierced primers with back to ATK/Federal ammo. Which have been awesome to deal with by the way. Today I got the results back from Federal. Of the 5 boxes I sent back to them, all the ammo tested perfect with and average pressure of 58,834psi with spec of 60,000psi. All cases were within tollerance as well. Their opinion was that my rifle has headspace issues.

The rifle functions fine until I have a pierced primer, after which every round there after experiences a pierced primer. I have to dis-assembly the bolt carrier to find the little piece of primer brass caught in the firing pin area of the bolt, to get the rifle to function normally again.

So my question is, where do I turn from here? Send it back to GAP? Send the bolt to Gre-tan for a bushing job and custom firing pin? I could use a little advice here.

Thank, Powereng

 

[JPShooter]

I would forward your text from here directly to GAP and let them know its on the Hide.

I'm sure they will respond appropriately.

 

[FLIGHT762]

Glen Zediker addresses this in one of of his books, Handloading for competition. He writes if the firing pin hole in the bolt face is larger than .065", the firing pin may act like a cookie cutter and will pierce primers before reaching usual pressures.

Since it's a GAP gun, I'd send the rifle back to them for their testing. It's a pain in the ass, but GAP should make it good.

I've been shooting an early production SR-25 since 1993. My rifle beats the shit out of soft (Federal) brass and will enlarge primer pockets in near max loads. I do reload for it. I put in a Tubbs carrier weight system and flat buffer spring, which has helped a little bit. Remington brass takes the beatings better and I can get 3-5 reloads out of them. Federal is the softest and I only get 1-2 loads out of them.

 

[HighGroundMan]

Absolutely contact the guys at GAP and relate your story and findings to date. They would be very interested in this and I think they would make it right. They will need the rifle I'm sure but that's just the way it goes sometimes. This is the first I have heard of this. I haven't had any problems with the Federal ammo in my GAP 10 or any ammo for that matter, so far. Knock (shoot) on wood.

 

[sic65stang]

Powereng, I had some issues with my GAP10 when I first got it as well but that is a different issue and I think it is working out ok now. I have no idea why the FGMM have been piercing primers, however after reading your handload posting I am fairly sure your load is too hot for that rifle. Have you chronographed any of those loads? I think they are way to hot for 175 SMK. I actually had to go BELOW book recommendations for Varget to get mine to shoot good. My load is only 41 grains of varget. However you mentioned your headspace is 1.56 which does seem to short to me as mine measures after being fired at 1.625. I would give GAP a call and specify about your headspace measurement.

 

[powereng]

sic65stang, Thanks for the reloading info. I've pretty much scrapped the few reloads I had put together thus far. I was able to pick up some CCI BR2's at my local honey hole of the a gun shop the other day. I won't start reloading again until I get this factory ammo pierced primer issue figured out. I called and left a message with Ken from GAP on Monday & Wednesday. Still no word back.

 

[smschulz]

Pressure issues are not uncommon in gas precision rigs. I am going through the same thing with a couple MA TEN's I recently built. It is a chamber issue and load issue. I never had any problems with FGGM but mostly Black Hills 168gn Match red box ammo and some Nosler Match. I am solving with reloading the right load, adjustable gas settings at the moment. These are Rainier UM Shilen barrels. Good Luck and let us know the outcome.

 

[powereng]

Sorry to hear about your MA TEN troubles, but it's good to know I'm not alone. I've been stockpiling FGMM for two years now in anticipation of this rifle. Yes I can reload my own, but in my mind, a rifle should be able to fire quality factory ammo without issue. Not upset, just saying.

 

[smschulz]

Sorry to hear about your MA TEN troubles, but it's good to know I'm not alone. I've been stockpiling FGMM for two years now in anticipation of this rifle. Yes I can reload my own, but in my mind, a rifle should be able to fire quality factory ammo without issue. Not upset, just saying.

It is not so much whether a new rifle should or shouldn't. The pressures in 308 are finicky and even bolt guns can have issues albeit less. Not everyone uses the high powered match ammo in gas guns where the pressures are higher and precision chambers and loads make all the difference in the world. My issues will get solved (more like fine tuned) sooner or later and they are really not all that bad. Most any other caliber you never hear too much and I have never had a 223/556 issue in the several builds I built. YMMV and good luck.

 

[powereng]

Just an update guys. I did hear back from George today via a voicemail left on my phone. Basically he said I'll just have to live with it and that cratered primers are just part of owning a gas gun. He did not recommend going with a smaller firing pin and bushing the bolt due to "reliability uses with it setting off primers". Lastly he stated that Federal is feeding me line of BS and that many police depts are having to return large quantities of their ammo due to having issues.

So I guess on that note I'm left to rolling my own. My plan is to start with the few pieces of Winchester brass that I have, CCI BR2 primers, 175gr SMK's, and a starting charge of 41gr of Varget. Let me know what you think.

 

[netranger6]

You try any southwest 175's? Been slinging those for past two years and will put against FGGM all day long.

 

[3O8Junkie]

Just an update guys. I did hear back from George today via a voicemail left on my phone. Basically he said I'll just have to live with it and that cratered primers are just part of owning a gas gun. He did not recommend going with a smaller firing pin and bushing the bolt due to "reliability uses with it setting off primers". Lastly he stated that Federal is feeding me line of BS and that many police depts are having to return large quantities of their ammo due to having issues.

So I guess on that note I'm left to rolling my own. My plan is to start with the few pieces of Winchester brass that I have, CCI BR2 primers, 175gr SMK's, and a starting charge of 41gr of Varget. Let me know what you think.

Not even an offer to look at it huh? Not impressed... Maybe I expect too much out of a gun, but not running factory ammo reliably is a no go for me.

For what its worth my N6 doesn't have those issues with FGMM or anything else I have run through it.

 

[LRH308]

I can't believe GAP won't stand behind their gun and at least take a look at it. Maybe you should look into a Larue! GAP seems to be lacking on their customer service.

 

[powereng]

308Junkie, I know, my old N6 and my buddy's OBR doesn't have this problem either. My whole experience with George and GAP from order to delivery was one miserable experience after another. I have a saved e-mail chain from Dustin that would make your blood boil. I almost turned around and sold the rifle the day I picked it up from my FFL because I knew if I had I problem with this rifle I would get treated like shit. Sure enough, here I am. I am the point now where I just want to sell the rifle and be done with George and GAP altogether.

 

[JSTARSZ]

The chance of it being the ammunition is pretty low and since Federal even took it back to check it is kudos for them. I have 308 AR's including an older version GAP 308 that I sold, and never had issues with pierced primers unless I loaded the reloads too hot. That a rifle leaves the builder and has an issue is not a big deal, as it happens; but, that GA Precision didn't even offer to take it back to work the problem is disturbing. I am sure they have their side of the story but when I pay BIG bucks for a custom rifle I expect that they would take care of the issue no matter what their opinion of me or my rifle is.

 

[997/2man]

Just an update guys. I did hear back from George today via a voicemail left on my phone. Basically he said I'll just have to live with it and that cratered primers are just part of owning a gas gun. He did not recommend going with a smaller firing pin and bushing the bolt due to "reliability uses with it setting off primers". Lastly he stated that Federal is feeding me line of BS and that many police depts are having to return large quantities of their ammo due to having issues.

So I guess on that note I'm left to rolling my own. My plan is to start with the few pieces of Winchester brass that I have, CCI BR2 primers, 175gr SMK's, and a starting charge of 41gr of Varget. Let me know what you think.

This sounds like a huge, steaming pile of bullshit.

I own 3 other brands of gas operated.308s, not a SINGLE fucked primer. Granted, half the time my cases are lost in the weeds, ditch, canal, etc. FGMM or Black Hills is my go to ammo. Someone is pissing down your leg and telling you that it is raining. If it were just your hand loads, I say start there, but...

Good luck.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Troubleshooting 001 - frog the rifle and ammo with another rifle/ammo combo. See if the problem follows the rifle or the ammo. Just make sure it is not Hornady SuperFormance ammo

EDIT - now the truth comes out.

 

[nn8734]

Hmm, this is somewhat disturbing...I was strongly thinking of ordering a GAP 10 (yea, and deal with the 1 year wait). I would hope that someone from GA Precision would chime in here and offer to take a look at the rifle for you...Failing that, I would follow 9H_Cracka's advice and evaluate the weapon as described above.

 

[Graham]

Cratered primers are not part of operating a properly set-up gas gun. And what police departments may have done with their ammo is not relevant to your rifle. Try different ammo and see if the problem persists.

 

[powereng]

Troubleshooting 001 - frog the rifle and ammo with another rifle/ammo combo. See if the problem follows the rifle or the ammo. Just make sure it is not Hornady SuperFormance ammo

As far as seeing what the state of the rifle is, I would do this:

- find a COMPETENT local smith
- have them check the headspace with go/no-go gauges
- measure the firing pin diameter
- measure the firing pin hold diameter in the bolt (see reference to competent gunsmith - he'll have pin gauges and/or a number drill set to do this with)
- inspect the tip of the firing pin under a 10X lupe/magnifier

Long headspace will make the primers flat and flow outside the diameter of the primer pocket, not make them pierce.

There have been MANY threads here over the years where people with AR10-type rifles shared firing pin and FP holes in the bolt dimensions here. This is not a new problem/issue/topic.

Exactly Craka. I called and spoke with Greg from Gre-tan last night and he agreed that the firing pin and hole is probably too large. Unfortunately he can't fix it with a bushing and smaller firing pin due to the hardness of the bolt coating. He said Eugene Stoner got it right with his original firing pin opening. He said unfortunately manufacturers open the hole larger to decrease the cost of tooling to make the hole, drill bit vs mill cutter. He explained it as placing a 8' 2x4 across an open hole. Place the 2x4 across a 7' hole and put a 300lb man on the board, the board will break and the man will fall in. Now take that same 2x4 and put it across a 4' hole with the same 300lb man and the board will support his weight. The man is this example is the primer materal flowing through the enlarged hole. This is why I'm stuck. George won't help me and one of the best bushing guys in the business says it he can't repair it.

 

[sic65stang]

Power, I started at 40 with the varget, and settled on 41. All of those loads are very light but the 41 from my 18" gets me 2450FPS which I think is acceptable. I too had a very disturbing email string with Dustin and I sent that to George and talked to him about it. George did take my rifle upper back once to fix a switchblock issue, that still doesnt seem resolved. I too felt like the after the fact customer service was lacking from GAP. Please let me know how this works out.

 

[netranger6]

Fuck. Here we go. I put my deposit down a month ago.... Someone needs to chime in on here. I know the team is busy as hell, but someone needs to put this shit to sleep. I'll be pissed as fuck if all my .308 shoots like shit, but then again, I don't reload.

 

[9H_Cracka]

EDIT - now the truth comes out.

 

[Boomholzer]

cant find the watch button so tagaroo.

 

[Hannibalsnipes]

308Junkie, I know, my old N6 and my buddy's OBR doesn't have this problem either. My whole experience with George and GAP from order to delivery was one miserable experience after another. I have a saved e-mail chain from Dustin that would make your blood boil. I almost turned around and sold the rifle the day I picked it up from my FFL because I knew if I had I problem with this rifle I would get treated like shit. Sure enough, here I am. I am the point now where I just want to sell the rifle and be done with George and GAP altogether.

Every person/store has the human right to error, so when I went through all of the BS with GAP, I thought I was the only one and just bitched about it to my shooting buddy; but I didn't bitch to the Hide.
Now, I see others are having issues. After reading about your frustration and remembering feeling the EXACT same way, as well as seeing the concern of others who have placed orders, I feel compelled to make a statement.

My experience with GAP was horrible. I ordered the rifle, that seemed to go well, except (let's call him Bob) Bob didn't seem very competent to me and even told me that he "don't have it together today". I ordered a Gap-10 which was pretty normal except for a PRS stock, some color to the barrel and scope mount, a Noveski gas-block switch, and mounting a TBAC brake (for those that don't know TBAC is a prominent suppressor company). I received the rifle within the quoted waiting period, and immediately noticed that there was no gas-block switch. I immediately called GAP and spoke with Bob and was told that I "had not made any mention of using a suppressor with your rifle". I was very quick to point out that they had mounted a TBAC (30ba) muzzle brake that is designed for suppressor application. Long pause from Bob.... I recounted our conversation when I ordered the rifle (keeping in mind that he certainly talks to many customers) and gave him a verbatim recount of our phone conversation (I'm fortunate in that's how my mind works). He then continued to argue with me that I hadn't ordered a gas-block switch.
So I break the rifle in and it WON'T shoot straight.

I try EVERYTHING to try and resolve this, and then I discover why, the barrel was coming loose...

So that warrants a call to GAP, they tell me to send it in, so I asked them to install the g-b switch. They get the rifle, don't tell me anything for a few months, I finally call and ask Bob what was wrong with the rifle and he says, "they weren't able to find anything wrong with it".
REALLY??? (click the pic for video; nevermind that dirty sock..=0)


So I get the rifle back, it won't cycle, so I send it back to get the g-b switch tuned and I guess Bob and (let's call him Dob) Dob had told George that I had refused to send them my suppressor...
George- "Keep in mind as you refused to send your suppressor, it will not work with a suppressor at all. Not sure what's going on but 2 of the three guys here that you have talked to said you would not send your suppressor".
My response- "Sir, I think you've been misinformed. I never refused to send in my suppressor. I told Bob and Dob that I had not yet received my suppressor. My form3 took 6 months. I was planning to send the rifle and suppressor back as soon as I got the can. During a phone call with Dob after I sent the rifle back the first time, he said that I had sent back the rifle "all beat up due to shooting it suppressed without a gasblock switch". That pissed me off for several reasons. First of all because Bob told me that a gas block switch was completely unnecessary and second because Bob had told me that there was nothing wrong with the rifle when I sent it back and third because I still hadn't gotten my suppressor so I hadn't shot the rifle suppressed at all. Now, you've apparently been told that I refused to send in my suppressor. I don't know why your employees have not been truthful with me or with you. I have tried to shoot the rifle unsuppressed in the unsuppressed setting with three different types ammo and it still misfeeds 90% of the time"

George took over, sent me 10 rounds of Copper Creek for free to try with unsuppressed. They work, so I sent the rifle in with the can, they tune it, and now it cycles properly. In the end, to be fair, some of the misfeeding was due to my fault and a bad sizer die, but it was one long, frustrating road, and I still don't have faith in the rifle. After a few hundred rounds with no problems, I'll trust it; but for now I don't.

And also to be fair, here is a pic of the grouping I'm getting now:

 

[powereng]

Hannibalsnipes. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I thought I was the only one they treated this way.

So after reading your post I called GAP and read Ken the riot act. Ken said I would have to continue working with George and that George way away at a funeral. I told Ken that George left me a voicemail yesterday telling me it was my problem. So I basically had to demand that they send me a shipper tag to ship the rifle back to them. Initially Ken wanted me to pay for shipping and they would pay me back. I told him no way. After all the BS I've been handed up to this point I have no reason to trust them.

Just so people don't think I'm making this up, can someone post an audio file for me of George's initial response to me. I have it in .wav format.

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Guys, the OP stated in his call to me that he did not want to send back the rifle, He even states in another post in the reloading section that he was told By us to send it in. I've only comunicated with him via messages as every time I call he is not available. It's very true that Fedral Gold Medal has the highest amount of problems in gas guns, Brass is soft and the brass is oversized. Neck is .340 when every other maker keeps it at .334-.336. I suggest that guys not shoot Fedral. It will be more problematic. Everyone that has called with issues has been related to Ammo, it's a Gas Rifle and its dependent on ammo .

 

[powereng]

10 minutes ago Ken told me you were unavailable and at a funeral. This is what it takes to get a response out of you. Wow!

 

[T2CH]

I have a GAP-10 and it has been flawless. The best groups and function comes when using FGMM. The only time it has had a problem is when using Copper Creek gas gun loads. And I'm talking every other round...

 

[A10XRIFLE]

Yea it's sad that I have to post from my cell phone while I'm driving to my freinds funeral in Houston.

 

[powereng]

At this point I'm done. Life is just too short to put up with all this nonsense. I say this because even if I get this issue figured out, the gun will still have to go back to them once I get my supressor so they can "tune it". So if someone is willing to deal with all this BS, feel free to make me an offer.

 

[Mike]

You're a douche. You're lying your ass off in this thread. Nothing you have relayed what George or Kenny said is true. The very FIRST thing they said is send the rifle back. After you REFUSED to send it back you want them to try and fix it through some telekinesis. You ignore the fact that it could be that ONE PARTICULAR lot of ammo and take Federal's word as gospel. Match ammo or not it's still mass produced and anyone with half a brain would realize that the propensity for error is on the side of the least quality control, aka Federal. Next, you didn't take anyone else's smart advice and try that ammo in another rifle. You don't want to listen as you're not getting the instant answer you want to hear. Finally, after you're told the George is on his way to a funeral your answer of "I don't give a fuck where he is have him call me right now" shows your low class.

There are always two sides to a story and we will wait to hear George's version when he has something to type on besides a phone. And yes, I do know what's going on as I've spoke will both George and Kenny.