Rifle Scopes In need of some basic understanding of MOA vs Mil

[cnl390]

I am brand new to The Hide and after siting through quite a few threads I have found that there is a wealth of knowledge here. So let's hope
that my first question (actually a couple) isn't to dumb or boring for you all.
A couple of months ago I purchased a Nightforce 2.5-10x24 scope with zero stop & NP-R2 reticle. I have determined from reading quite a few posts
that a Mil Dot reticle is preferred over the MOA. And I also saw something about the capped turrets being less desirable. I currently have this scope
on my Wilson Combat .300 Blackout, but it will eventually be mounted on my LaRue 5.56 PredatAR when it arrives. I will be using it for short, medium &
long range hog hunting as well as long range fun shooting. I have been learning as much as I can about ranging & calculating holdover using MOA, and
also want to learn about dialing in the shot. Is the correct scope, the correct reticle & the best turrets to have? I am beginning to hooked on this
long range stuff and would rather change out now than have to re-learn a whole new system later.
Sorry for such a long drawn out question.

 

[_Windrider_]

I am brand new to The Hide and after siting through quite a few threads I have found that there is a wealth of knowledge here. So let's hope
that my first question (actually a couple) isn't to dumb or boring for you all.
A couple of months ago I purchased a Nightforce 2.5-10x24 scope with zero stop & NP-R2 reticle. I have determined from reading quite a few posts
that a Mil Dot reticle is preferred over the MOA. And I also saw something about the capped turrets being less desirable. I currently have this scope
on my Wilson Combat .300 Blackout, but it will eventually be mounted on my LaRue 5.56 PredatAR when it arrives. I will be using it for short, medium &
long range hog hunting as well as long range fun shooting. I have been learning as much as I can about ranging & calculating holdover using MOA, and
also want to learn about dialing in the shot. Is the correct scope, the correct reticle & the best turrets to have? I am beginning to hooked on this
long range stuff and would rather change out now than have to re-learn a whole new system later.
Sorry for such a long drawn out question.

Here are some easy videos to help

http://youtu.be/VA2PZBD5Tjg
http://youtu.be/S5AGsHSIsVo

There are other NSSF vids that are equally good in that series. You should be able to find them from these

 

[mzvarner]

These are good resources. I am new to distance shooting and have watched them a handful of times ( sometimes just for stoke)

 

[JFComfort]

You should be able to make it work!

 

[Sniper260]

Ha those videos are the two I thought about when reading the post. Mils is easier imo

 

[Dkindels]

Pick one and use it. Each system will enable you to hit targets with enough practice.

 

[HD1911]

Go with Mils and never look back....you'll be glad u did. So easy to understand and use, and faster to boot IMHO.

 

[doubledelta]

Coke vs. Pepsi!

What's important is that the turrets match the reticle.

I use moa, but will probably switch to mil for two reasons;

1. more choices in mil based scopes.

2. seems like everyone is using mil these days, and when i ask for a wind call i must then convert the answer from mils to moa.


that being said, i think you have a fine scope for an AR type rifle.

 

[The Revenge]

While we're on the subject, I've never understood why folks think mils are easier than moa.
Moa, increases one inch per hundred yards. Divide drop by moa number at the different yardages. 3 for 300yd, 7 for 700, 9 for 900 etc.. That simple
Mils. One mil is 3.6. In order to determine your dial up you need to multiply 3.6 times what the yardage is. 3.6 x 3 for 300 yd, 3.6 x 7 for 700 yd. etc... Then you still have to divide the drop by that number.
What am I missing? How is mils easier?
I'm too curious I'm getting ready to order a high end scope and have been looking at a mil/mil for the first time.

 

[dcjs]

What am I missing?

Seems like you're keeping your drop charts in inches. Don't. Use mils (or moa), those are the units your scope turrets and reticle (hopefully matching units) are calibrated in, and you can use them directly to adjust your POI. That whole conversion clusterfuck of inches of drop to adjustment values for different ranges is totally unnecessary. This matter is separated from the question of mils vs. moa, but it is even more important to understand.

 

[The Revenge]

Right now I'm using a PST 4-16, moa/moa. Looking at a us optics, s&b, or march for my new rifle.
I use isnipe and it shows the moa or mils if you prefer adjustment.
Just wondering what's easier about mils to you guys. Is it because that's what you learned with?

 

[surprise]

So I learned with moa and I just purchased a mil scope. I had the same debate about a month ago and decided that moa is easier because I'm more familiar inches. miles are much more user-friendly for everybody because it is much more popular. I am at a crossroads as well a lot of my optics have moa however my nicest optic is now mil. After lots of thought and reading I am switching over to Mils. From my limited experience I don't feel that Mils are easier I just think they will be better in the long run.
So to answer your question, you have a great scope and I agree it will work perfectly for most semi auto applications however if you're planning on shooting long-distance and or getting more optics I think you would do yourself a huge favor to switch over to Mils now.

 

[Graham]

Don't 'pick one system'. Learn both systems and learn how they relate to each other.

Hint: 3.438

 

[surprise]

Valid point!

 

[RobertB]

Don't 'pick one system'. Learn both systems and learn how they relate to each other.

Hint: 3.438

I very much agree with this ^^^^^

Great scope OP, nothing wrong with it at all. As far as mil/MOA, I shoot both. Both will get you results the same way. On either one, don't think in inches, feet, etc. For most of the time the only time you would think at all in that is for ranging. WHen your using your reticle to range your target. Other than that, if your scope hits 1MOA/mil low, adjust 1 MOA/mil up. Simple as that. It's not at all complicated. If you are ranging with the reticle then I recommend a mil-dot master. It's an analog calculator that works in either mils or MOA. On zeroing the rifle, get it close at 25 yds then look at your first group on paper. If its 4 MOA/mils whatever low and 2 right, adjust that. You can see what it is by getting back on your target and measuring with you reticle where your bullets ended up from where you aimed at. The best advice that either I or anyone else can give you is to not make it over complicated. Think in either version you have and you can swap back an forth between either with no problem. I think that one reason people think that mils are easier is that the numbers are smaller. It's like measuring your yard in inches instead of feet, both are accurate but one outcome is smaller because the measurements are bigger. Not saying mil scopes don't adjust as fine. 1/10 of a mil is still a fine adjustment for any field shooting IMHO. They are just broken down different. When I use either I think about the angular measurement not how many inches you think it is. When measuring a group or seeing how far a target is off of your group at 1000 yds on paper for fine tuning of your data or something like that you might have to think about what adjustments come out to in your formula but as far as 99% of your shooting goes once your rifle is setup, zero'd, and data determined, then you will only need to thing about your angular measurement in which ever version you chose. Good luck and enjoy this great sport. Hope this helped.

 

[cnl390]

Amazing how much good info and opinions one can get if you just ask. I have learned so much, but still have a long way to go.
Next question, does anyone know of a ballistic calculator app for a Windows Phone?

 

[_Windrider_]

Amazing how much good info and opinions one can get if you just ask. I have learned so much, but still have a long way to go.
Next question, does anyone know of a ballistic calculator app for a Windows Phone?

Maybe FFS (field firing solution) or ATrag, but ATrag requires an SD card I think. Those r the only two possibilities I can think of, I'm sure there are more.

 

[haroldwilson]

MOA is often preferred by target shooters as the adjustments are finer. 1 MOA at 100 yds = 1.047", and 1/8 MOA at 100 yds = .131". If shooting F class at 600 yds one click of a 1/8 MOA knob will move the point of impact by .131" x 6 = .786". The X ring on the target at 600 yds is approx 3". Having .786" POI shift means you can move the POI into the target in .786" increments.

1 Mil at 100 yds = 3.6". Using a Mil scope with .10 mil knobs for the same application, one click of the knob would move the POI by 2.16". The adjustment is not as fine. If you were trying to center up on a 3" x ring, one might prefer the finer adjustment. I would. There are some scopes made with .05 mil knobs, but they aren't that common and even then the adjustment on this application is 1.08" per click.

The opposite can be true for tactical applications where you are ranging, especially unknown distance, and making big moves fast to correct misses. The Mil scope is preferred, by me anyway, for this application. You want to be able to make bigger moves faster and you aren't concerned about the finer adjustments. In fact, the finer adjustments would be a hindrance. To make a quick adjustment with 1/8 MOA knob in this application versus a .10 mil knob would take 2.75 more clicks, and 1.37 more clicks with a 1/4 MOA knob. If you are wanting to move 3 mil, this can be significant in a hurried situation, plus the more you have to count the more you can screw up.

Learning both systems is ideal as it will allow you to speak both languages. I went to a long range spotter / shooter event with a buddy of mine and between us we had a mil/mil scope, a moa/moa scope, and a mil/moa scope on a back up gun which we ended up having to use. The mil/moa caused the most problems, but we were able to make it happen because we both spoke both languages.

 

[cnl390]

Maybe FFS (field firing solution) or ATrag, but ATrag requires an SD card I think. Those r the only two possibilities I can think of, I'm sure there are more.

Thanks. I have checked and the only apps available for Windows phones are; Shooter's Reference, My Range Compensator, My Hunting Calculator, Ballistics Calc & Ballistica. I will see if anyone has used one of these here, and if not I will start a new thread.

 

[Chanonry]

This topic has huge scope for b/s and personal prejudice. This is why it runs and runs and runs. Also means there is no 'correct' bit of kit.

Bottom line we start with a circle (or an arc). We then invent a set of units to communicate to each other how much angular offset we are using/need. What they are is irrelevant. Mil, MOA, IPHY or anything else you care to invent. MIL is 'better' than MOA or vice versa is clearly bollocks if you look at it like this.

What is important is that you understand which system you are using (MOA vs IPHY is a common confusion), have the same scale on your reticle and turrets, and use a system which is catered for by others who you may be part of your shooting 'team' (not much help if you are shooting MIL and your buddy is calling MOA adjustments). This is how you get personal pref. The military guys (I am guessing) are more used to MIL so you can understand why they advocate it. Other guys were brought up on MOA.

It is just a scale/rule that you use. Personally moving between one and the other does not seem to be any kind of issue but I am not trying to build a memory of how my system performs.

Just buy quality kit that is all in the same 'scale' and calibrate the scope reticle and turret clicks to check it is actually operating in true MOA/MIL. You may need to work out a correction factor for your particular scope or whatever so that you can relate to the true angular measurements (eg from your ballistic software output)

 

[cnl390]

After taking in all of the great opiniions, suggestions, advice and watching the videos I have pretty much decided on at least one thing. That is unless someone changes my mind. Anyway I have scrapped the idea of getting the Leupold with the .300 Blackout reticle. And I will be going MOA/MOA. Nothing against the mil folks, it is just I already have the Nightforce in MOA and want to be consistent. Now it comes down to choosing a scope. So I need some suggestions. If you all think I need to start another thread I will. But my basic parameters are...great glass, stadia lines or dots, turrets with exposed dials for dialing in, a smaller size but with enough magnification fro 59 year old eyes to make 300 yard shots.
Thanks, you all have helped me a tremendous amount so far.

 

[Graham]

If you want MOA/MOA, go Nightforce. Because you will want it to have a high resale value and you will need a market for it when you decide to sell it.

 

[scudzuki]

While we're on the subject, I've never understood why folks think mils are easier than moa.
Moa, increases one inch per hundred yards. Divide drop by moa number at the different yardages. 3 for 300yd, 7 for 700, 9 for 900 etc.. That simple
Mils. One mil is 3.6. In order to determine your dial up you need to multiply 3.6 times what the yardage is. 3.6 x 3 for 300 yd, 3.6 x 7 for 700 yd. etc... Then you still have to divide the drop by that number.
What am I missing? How is mils easier?
I'm too curious I'm getting ready to order a high end scope and have been looking at a mil/mil for the first time.

What are you missing?
If you are using 1" equals 1 MOA at 100 yards, you're missing one MOA for every 20 (4.7%).
It's 1.047" per hundred yards, which is 4 digits to multiply or divide, as opposed to moving a decimal point when calculating using mils (1/1000th).

Joe