Sizing die won't size??

[turbo54]

So a local friend is getting into reloading for his scoped rifle (FN SPR in 308). He is a complete noob. He came over and watched me make some ammo. Another time he came over and we made some ammo for his rifle. I had him pull the lever a while. I showed him what's what.

He asked me to come over last night to help him do a shake-down run with his setup.

He's got a new Hornady AP progressive, and Hornady "custom grade" 308 die set.

I brought a 308 headspace gage over, and zeroed the caliper (with HS measuring attachment) on my gage, then measured his fired (but decapped) brass. Interestingly, the brass measured .001-.0015" UNDER the HS gage.

Anyway, I started setting up his sizing die by raising the ram and screwing in the die until it kissed the shellplate - NO camming over.

I sized a piece of brass and measured it - it was +.006"

I screwed the die in a little more, which caused the press to cam over *slightly*, and sized another piece of brass - it measured +.005"

Then I tried chambering the two pieces of "sized" brass - they'll go, but the bolt is tight.

I screwed the die in a little more, causing the press to cam over quite a bit, then sized yet another piece of brass - it measured +.005"

I sharpied up the shoulder on another piece of fired brass and sized it, to confirm the shoulder was NOT being contacted - confirmed.

At this point I was thinking we'd just sand/grind ~.005-.010" off the face of his die and try again, but then I noticed a shiny spot on his brass where the die is in fact contacting. The die is contacting the outer edge of the shoulder, just where the sharp angle is created where the shoulder meets the case body. With the die set where it is (causing cam over, but not contacting shoulder), the die is rounding off the shoulder/body corner...not a *lot*, but definitely contacting and visibly removing the sharp corner.

This makes me concered that if I sand/grind the face of the die allowing us to get the case deeper into the die, the die is really going to get into the shoulder/body corner, rounding it off quite a bit.

My advice to him was to return the Hornady die set and to buy another brand, either RCBS, Forster or Redding...anything but Lee or Hornady.

Any thoughts on this? Am I missing something here? WTF?

Every sizing die I've ever set up in ANY press has allowed me to push the shoulder back MORE than it ought to be. This die seems incapable of even resizing brass back to SAAMI specs, never mind under.

Thanks for reading my dissertation.

 

[TimK]

Maybe try a different shell holder? Mine all hold the case the same distance from the top, but maybe yours is too deep.

 

[gau17]

Are you sure it's not a neck die?

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

I had issues with Hornaday dies on a 6.5x284, and 6.5x47. I had several rounds get stuck in the dies, they both were out of spec, and that was that. Tell him to get RCBS at the least, Redding preferably. I have ran, not walked away from Hornaday products.

 

[roggom]

+1 on what Tim said, is the shell plate Hornady? I have RCBS and Redding and there is a .005 difference in thickness. My redding plate must be used with the Redding die (its not a small base or anything like that).

Maybe bring over another shell plate and try.

 

[Loopdog]

Same set up Same issue.. i went with the Forster and Im Happy happy Happy now

 

[wilecoyote]

if it's a noob and a friend,please,simply don't allow to use a progressive_said that, if the die squeeze a fired (and diameter-enlarged) brass, the brass will grow in height first , and maybe some progressive can have problems to adequately work on consequently resizing it, headspace-wise, independently from the die brand_ if you don't trust in grinding the his die, please, will refer to Forster or Redding ONLY for the next buy (and if mounted on a single-stage+Imperial Wax, better)_I hope can help,if you can forgive my poor English_

 

[turbo54]

Are you sure it's not a neck die?

Yes. The die is labeled "FLS", it has a lot of resistance going into the die, and I can see where the die is working the body down at the .200" line.

I had issues with Hornaday dies on a 6.5x284, and 6.5x47. I had several rounds get stuck in the dies, they both were out of spec, and that was that. Tell him to get RCBS at the least, Redding preferably. I have ran, not walked away from Hornaday products.

Cases go into this die stiff. At first I thought it was because the die was new and had some rust-inhibitor inside, so I cleaned the snot out of the die with a bottle brush and soapy water. I was rather surprised when the next piece went in stiffly, even with proper lubrication using Imperial. I've not experienced this before.

+1 on what Tim said, is the shell plate Hornady?

Yes, it is a new Hornady AP press with Hornady shellplate.

Again, the fact the die/press configuration is not capable (currently) of pushing the shoulder back to 1.630" is only one issue. That issue could be solved by sanding ~.005" from the shellplate or the bottom surface of the die itself.

Issue two is if I were to do that, and the case was able to go deeper into the die, there would be even more contact at the shouler/body corner, where it is already contacting and rounding the corner off.

It sure seems to me like this die set is a fail.

 

[Deadshot2]

Have you tried the die on another press, preferably a single stage? I wouldn't doctor the die unless I was absolutely positive that it is the die.

Also, you mentioned that the die was set so the press would "cam over" and I assume that this was without a case being used. Before any other steps, check to see if you can see "daylight" between shellplate and the bottom of the die when a case if fully inserted and the press "cammed over". You may have more spring in the press than realized.

Lastly, it just might be that either the shell plate or the die is out of spec. I have a Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension F/L die (.308) that I actually have to back off in order to maintain 1.6285" which gives me a .0015" "bump" from my fired case dimension.

 

[JGorski]

For one, Id never have a noob start with a progressive, but it is what it is, so.....Ive got both FL & NS bushing Hornady Custom dies for the 308, never had any issues, camming over quite a bit never helps size the case more, kissing the shellholder and turning the die in just a 1/16th turn more is plenty, I use Lee shellholders for the 308 class rifle cases. Have him come over to your place and use your shellholder, of course have him bring his rifle along and try working on it again. If that fails, call Ben at Hornady, he'd be glad to help you guys out.

 

[JGorski]

So these are "New dimension" dies or real Custom dies like Ive got?

Actually, Ive got both new dimension & custom Hornady dies.

 

[fish30114]

I've had the same issue with a Hornady die in the past. I simply whizzed a few thou off on my belt sander while I held the die, by the spindle, chucked up into a cordless drill-just my attempt to keep things balanced-concentric. After that 30 seconds the die has worked fine and sizes my brass without any of the 'rounding of the shoulder' issue you allude to. Just FYI this was/is a 280 AI die, which has really sharp and clearly defined shoulders, which this die maintains now. I'd sand off some of the die in a minute, but then again I don't like waiting on things, I did mine over the course of a few minutes, from unsucessful sizing operations, to fully functional in one quick walk across my shop and back.
Another trick I've seen used to confirm it is the die, is too slip a feeler gauge under the next case before/during sizing, you can put a blade of say 5 thousandths under the case and the see what happens to the case. I personally don't think this is that big of an issue, I just attribute these things to tolerance stack, and get on with it.
Good luck to you both.

 

[turbo54]

The feeler gage under the case idea to see what the die will do to a case if we sanded it is a good idea. I'll try that.

Like I said, if it were only a matter of needing to get the case a couple .001s deeper into the die to contact the shoulder, I wouldn't be trippin'. The rounding off of the shoulder concerns me more...and it'll only get worse if we push the case deeper.

I'll do the feeler gage thing and see how it comes out. I suspect it won't be good, but we'll see.

Thanks for the helpful posts, everyone.

 

[X-fan]

I assume the die contacts the outer shoulder first because of mismatched tolerances...Sloppy, but no big deal.
I would just grind off the die base.
Trimming the die wont make it worse

Edit: With the undersized headspace it is likely that no die will work...My thoughts anyway

 

[P7id10t]

Problem solving is the best learning experience. I hope your friend is understanding all that is happening.
Remember K.I.S.S. - don't mess with the shell plate or die until you understand the root of the problem.

Try his die set in your single stage press - see what you get.
Then try your die set in his AP
Note how the expander ball and primer ejection pin are set up between your two dies. Dragging on the expander ball on the downstroke of the ram can stretch your brass. Dunno how much 'cuz I've never had to measure it.
These babies are all CNC'd and the machines rarely screw it up.

An interesting test would be this:
1. Stroke the ram to widen the case mouth ONLY. No FL sizing.
2. Measure the internal and external diameters of the case mouth
3. Take the decapper rod and expander ball assembly out
4. Run that same case up to do a full length sizing
5. Measure the ID and OD of the case mouth

I'll check what mine do on my match set this evening when I get home from work. Will post the numbers back.

Jim

 

[scudzuki]

"My advice to him was to return the Hornady die set and to buy another brand, either RCBS, Forster or Redding...anything but Lee or Hornady."

Yeah, whatever.
I have 6 different sets of Lee dies that have pumped out tens of thousands of reloads and they all work great.
The Lee collet die is the best neck resizing die made, hands down.

Joe