I received my LMT MWS CL 16" a few weeks back and have since installed a Geissele SSA-E, Surefire brake, and SWFA 5-20x50. I'm getting a bit frustrated because I really want to LOVE this rifle but I'm having a difficult time even enjoying it. After putting 160 rounds of various ammo downrange I'm hard pressed to consistently achieve even 2.5 MOA groups (all are 5 rounds) at 100 yards shooting prone with a bipod. I've read numerous reviews of this rifle on the hide as well as various other sites and the consensus is that this is a MOA or better rifle. What gives? I've shot Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr, Federal Power Shok 165 gr soft point "deer thug" and Prvi Partizan 150 gr soft point. I understand that the last 2 rounds aren't meant to be match ammo but they are all that I have available to me currently. The FGMM on the other hand should provide much tighter groupings, but it doesn't. The best group that I've seen come out of the gun is just over 1 MOA (that happened 1 time with the FGMM, and it was shot by a buddy who had far more experience than myself). The same friend was never able to replicate that grouping with the same ammo in my 16 CL. I feel that this rifle should shoot better than what it is. I have a KAC SR15 that I can consistently get 1.5 MOA or less out of at 100 yards. I understand that I need to spend more time behind the trigger but I was just hoping that some of you with MWS experience could provide me some direction in regards to accurate ammo. What factory loads provide the most accurate results? I know that a lot of you are going to suggest that I hand load but at this point in time I'm not ready to take that on nor do I have the equipment/know how to do so. I'd really like to have a 1.5 MOA gun with factory loads and based on what I've read I think it should be possible. What does everyone think? Any suggestions?
- Thread starter sbaird4000
- Start date
Search for the Elfster's little 6x5 round (30 round total) group contest. That will keep you busy for a while. It was "enlightening" to many people.
How much time do you have on large frame gas guns outside of the 150 or so rds you've fired thus far on your MWS?
My results over the course of two yrs. or so, the MWS 16" CL prints almost any quality factory ammo under 1.5"....10rd/100yd groups.
My results over the course of two yrs. or so, the MWS 16" CL prints almost any quality factory ammo under 1.5"....10rd/100yd groups.
I posted this in another thread:
I put it in Shooter and its between .4 and .6 MOA(I re-did it a few times and it was slightly different each time, but largest was .6, smallest .4, depending on EXACTLY where I put the circles). 5 shots at 100. That load, which wasnt even really tuned up for the gun, was a 155 Nosler or something like that, dont really remember. Dont remember powder. Wasnt overly impressed with the round except this one group.
This was another group I shot that day with the same ammo:
I think Shooter put this at just over 1 MOA like 1.1 or something(cant find my saved image files, if I even saved em).
Setup is a LMT MWS 16" CL, Vortex Viper PST 4-16x SFP, Seekins Rings, Harris 6-9, home made rear bag.
I put it in Shooter and its between .4 and .6 MOA(I re-did it a few times and it was slightly different each time, but largest was .6, smallest .4, depending on EXACTLY where I put the circles). 5 shots at 100. That load, which wasnt even really tuned up for the gun, was a 155 Nosler or something like that, dont really remember. Dont remember powder. Wasnt overly impressed with the round except this one group.
This was another group I shot that day with the same ammo:
I think Shooter put this at just over 1 MOA like 1.1 or something(cant find my saved image files, if I even saved em).
Setup is a LMT MWS 16" CL, Vortex Viper PST 4-16x SFP, Seekins Rings, Harris 6-9, home made rear bag.
Wow, I could see pushing 2"moa @ 100yards, but 2.5" @ 100yards? do you have any pics of your targets?
I think your main goal would be getting 1" @ 100yards. Anything sub-moa is a bonus...... but getting 2.5"moa @ 100yards??? something is not right there.... I would try the following maybe:
1.) re-installing the LMT barrel. MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS OR YOU WILL SNAP THE LMT BOLTS. Trash the LMT wrench and use a nice inch pound torque wrench. MAKE SURE THE BARREL BOLTS AND INSIDE OF THE NUTS ARE BONE DRY WITH NO OILS AND NO LOCK TIGHT!!! any oil and lock tight will greatly throw off your inch pound of torque and you will snap the bolts (bolts are designed to snap if they go over in inch pounds)!! 140inch pounds.
2.) I would even consider re-mounting the scope.
3.) post a pic of your rifle please. Are you using a 1pc scope mount?
4.) there is a definite technique to driving a big caliber semi-auto, but something is way off if you're truly getting 2.5" @ 100yards.
I think your main goal would be getting 1" @ 100yards. Anything sub-moa is a bonus...... but getting 2.5"moa @ 100yards??? something is not right there.... I would try the following maybe:
1.) re-installing the LMT barrel. MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS OR YOU WILL SNAP THE LMT BOLTS. Trash the LMT wrench and use a nice inch pound torque wrench. MAKE SURE THE BARREL BOLTS AND INSIDE OF THE NUTS ARE BONE DRY WITH NO OILS AND NO LOCK TIGHT!!! any oil and lock tight will greatly throw off your inch pound of torque and you will snap the bolts (bolts are designed to snap if they go over in inch pounds)!! 140inch pounds.
2.) I would even consider re-mounting the scope.
3.) post a pic of your rifle please. Are you using a 1pc scope mount?
4.) there is a definite technique to driving a big caliber semi-auto, but something is way off if you're truly getting 2.5" @ 100yards.
How much time do you have on large frame gas guns outside of the 150 or so rds you've fired thus far on your MWS?
My results over the course of two yrs. or so, the MWS 16" CL prints almost any quality factory ammo under 1.5"....10rd/100yd groups.
I only have 160 rounds of experience in a large frame gas gun (my MWS). I have much more experience with my KAC SR 15. I'm pretty new to shooting but feel that for my level of experience I shoot pretty well. It's just that I see a lot of sub 1.5 groups from my KAC and have a difficult time getting 2.5 out of a rifle that is touted by many as a "precision AR". I'm sure that some of it has to do with me so I'm looking to gain as much knowledge as possible regarding the variables that I have control over in order to hopefully improve my groupings.
The differences b/t driving a SR15, and a MWS in a precision capacity are night and day imho.
some of the best factory ammo ive shot out of my LMT has been American eagle 168grn bthp "designed" for MIA rifles.... and it is really dirt cheap and the brass is not bad for reloading. I've produced many sub-moa groups with this factory ammo:
Federal Centerfire Rifle Ammunition 7.62x51 NATO 165 Gr Open Tip Match (OTM) M1A
Federal Centerfire Rifle Ammunition 7.62x51 NATO 165 Gr Open Tip Match (OTM) M1A
The other thing that got me thinking that my gun may perform better with different ammo is that I shot a 1.2 moa 5 shot group out of a friends 20" ss MWS today. I know the ss is more accurate but I didn't think it was more than 1 inch better.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'd really like to try some of this ammo, now I just have to find some in stock.
just all more of a reason to start reloading. One thing is for sure. You don't reload to save money. You do it to shoot a hell of a lot more for the same amount of money and to develop you own kick ass loads. Even during times like this when buying factory ammo is next to impossible and crazy expensive, I'm still reloading @ $8.80 per 20rounds comparison. I just loaded these 101 total @ 168grn AMAX beauties a couple days ago:
I have the brass
.03 per primer
about .14 per varget powder drop
.28 per bullet
that's .45 per round x 20 = $9 per 20round factory box comparison
it cost me out of pocket about $45 bucks for these 101 ammo bad boys!
I have the brass
.03 per primer
about .14 per varget powder drop
.28 per bullet
that's .45 per round x 20 = $9 per 20round factory box comparison
it cost me out of pocket about $45 bucks for these 101 ammo bad boys!
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You're absolutely correct, I do have to start reloading. I will sometime soon but have a bunch to learn before I begin. Nice MWS by the way. Stainless 20"?
nope, 20" CL and she can drive tacks. I would say it averages about .75moa. I have had 5shot groups all the way from .3 to 2" @ 100yards. So don't let this get you down. Ammo plays a HUGE roll in shooting .308 semi-auto's. Damn near as important as technique. Half of the fun playing around with these semi-auto rifles is developing ammo that works well for that particular semi-auto rifle. Each rifle is different.
don't let this get you down. this is just something you need to figure out between rifle set up (making sure barrel / scope is properly mounted), ammo development (stop using that crappy factory ammo), and most important!!! using proper technique to "driving" a gasser.
don't let this get you down. this is just something you need to figure out between rifle set up (making sure barrel / scope is properly mounted), ammo development (stop using that crappy factory ammo), and most important!!! using proper technique to "driving" a gasser.
also, if you're not doing this, then try using a sand bag on the rear with a bipod on the front. If you're going full blown bipod only with no rear sand bag, then it is possible to get 2.5moa
I tried a sand bag and while it made holding the rifle steady much easier, my groups were still 2.5 or greater moa.
I'll post a photo tomorrow...I just have to figure out how to do it first. I have the same scope mount as you (larue spr 1.5). As for the 2.5 moa, bm11 can vouch for me, he was there.
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I had the same problem with my 16"CL MWS until I re-torqued the barrel with a quality wrench I borrowed from my brother. Went from shotgun patterns to 0.75" or less shooting 168smk's
Ironically, I just got off the phone with LMT and they suggested that I uninstall/reinstall the barrel. I just finished the job and cleaned the entire rifle while I was at it. Hopefully this helps, 2.5 moa is unacceptable to me. Unfortunately I don't have a quality torgue wrench so I used the one that came with the rifle. I'll have to see if one of my friends has a better one. How many rounds did you have through it when you retorgued the barrel?
Don't forget to load that bipod the same way every time.
I'm beginning to think that I am taking my frustration out on a good rifle that I have shot a ton of crap ammo through. What I think I really need to do is find a few hundred rounds of match quality ammo and shoot some 5 round groups with it and go from there. I have put 160 rounds through the rifle so far but less than half of that was quality ammo such as FGMM. Thinking back on the days that I was shooting paper with my KAC and getting great results I've come to the conclusion that it shot so well for me because the ammo I put through it was good ammo. My LMT on the other hand has been fed a bunch of soft point garbage and I'm getting frustrated with the results. Granted some of my bad groups were shot with FGMM, I've only shot the rifle a few times and still have to work on my technique with it. If I still have a problem with shooting sub 1.5 MOA groups after I've put another 200 rounds of quality ammo such as FGMM then maybe I have a bad barrel or something. FGMM is tough to come by nowadays at a decent price and I still don't reload, what other ammo are you guys getting good results from? Has anyone tried Silver State Armory ammo or Fusion ammo, is it any good?
So...this morning I received a 16 inch SS barrel for my MWS. As you all know, I didn't have the best of luck with my 16 inch CL. I installed the barrel in a matter of minutes (love barrel changes with the MWS) and headed to the range with a friend. I put 100 rounds downrange at 100 yards, here are a couple of the groups that I got with the first 100 rounds (man did I pull one of my shots in the bottom left group). I was shooting FGMM 175 gr, the rifle seems to love it and I'm now happier than ever. I really feel that with a bunch of practice and a few hundred more rounds down the tube that this thing is really going to tighten up (not that I mind the current results as they're much better than what I was getting with the CL). I just feel that the rifle is capable of shooting better than my current skill level allows me to.
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Nice! I bet with some time behind it and getting used to it, they will tighten up quite a bit. Glad it all worked out. Every time myself a colleague or a pal has bought and interacted with them (LMT), it has been a positive experience. Not that 308 has any real recoil really but it is really a kitten with the surefire brake isn't it? Especially standing, there is a difference in time back on target. This was my first rifle/carbine with any kind of brake on it.
Yours is very similar to one of mine.
Yours is very similar to one of mine.
Thanks! I have a Surefire break on my KAC SR15 and absolutely love it. I had one on my 16 inch CL but am running the SS without one for now. I'm toying with the idea of getting one for the SS but with the way it's shooting I don't really want to mess with anything.
On Saturday I shot a LMT MWSE (16" chrome lined barrel) I bought last week. I was using Federal 175 grain Match ammo which is good for the 1 in 10 twist. The 1 in 11.25 barrel will like the 168 grain bullets best. I was using an Eotech XPS for a sight. The rifle held to 1/2 MOA on the first trip to the range. Planning on mounting an old Leupold 4.5 x 14 50mm LR Tactical scope on a Larue LT112 base later this week. I doubt it will shoot much better, but it should take it out to 1200 yards.
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1/2 MOA, that's some good shooting (especially without magnification). If you truly are holding at 1/2 MOA you should take a picture of 6 consecutive 5 shot groups (I'm assuming you're shooting at 100 yards) and enter it in Elfsters challenge, you'd be right at the top of the board. I was planning on entering his challenge after yesterdays trip to the range until I pulled a shot thus opening my 3rd group to 2.830...gross.
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Thank for the invite. I just shoot my rifles, don't have a working camera right now. Rather buy ammo than a new one. I feed a Surgeon .338 Lapua PSR, an EDM .408, a Colt Mk12 Mod01 and Mk18 Mod2, this new LMT MWSE and a load of hand guns. Get out shooting 3 times a week now, but only shoot short range targets to sight in a new rifle. I will try to get some photos of 100 targets when I get the scope mounted on the LMT 7.62 Will be shooting in the west desert again, Hawthorn and Yuma also on the schedule. Mostly just shoot ELR. If you do a 1000 yard contest, count me in.
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When I purchased my LMT MWS and ran American Eagle 150 grain ammo through it I was really disappointed, the groups were in the 1.5 to 2.5 inch range...groups reduced to 1" range with FGMM 168 and really tighten up to the .5 to .625 range with 175 (7.62 x 51) FGMM. This is a great rifle, give it time
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Sorry for the tardy reply, i did not see your question. I don't remember exactly now probably 60-80 rounds. I was well over a year ago. When I called LMT they told me the dealer must have messed with the rifle as they are tested for accuracy before they are shipped. I told them I was at the store when the rifle arrived and no one had messed with the rifle as I was there when it was unboxed. That is when the asked me to re-torque it before sending it back. I asked him how this rifle could have been shot with acceptable groups before it was shipped. He had no answer. So much for there in house testing. By the way my groups before the re-torquing were worse than 2.5".
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Thanks for getting back to me. I ended up getting a LMT Stainless 16" barrel and couldn't be happier with the rifle now. It doesn't always shoot sub moa but I think that has more to do with me than with the rifle. In the 130 rounds I've put through the new barrel I have seen a decent number of sub moa 5 shot groups which makes more than satisfied. Here's one of the groups I shot yesterday at 100 yards...my personal best with a semi auto.
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Thanks. I do want to get in on the competition but I haven't yet shot 6-5 round groups consecutively that are good enough to submit. IE, if I submit something I want it to be good enough to get me on the board.
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My best groups have been with Black Hills 168 grain. I have shot several five shot groups under 3/4 with this ammo and a few right at 1/2 inch. I am convinced that when I shot larger groups it is me and not the rifle or ammo.
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I tried some Nosler match ammo - 175 grn Custom Competition round rated at +/- 2550 fps at muzzle.
I have a 16 inch CL barrel.
At 300 yards it did not perform near as well as the mixed case, remanufactured Atomic Ammo using a 168 Custom Competition round over Varget at +/- 2600 fps, that I typically use. The 168 reman ammo and my skills usually produce 1.5 inch results @ 100 yards.
The 175 factory ammo also blew 2/10 primers from brand new Nosler cases. I have a box and a half left but I dont think its loaded for semi auto considering the primer blowouts. I was surprised as the rated fps seems average to mild.
I have a 16 inch CL barrel.
At 300 yards it did not perform near as well as the mixed case, remanufactured Atomic Ammo using a 168 Custom Competition round over Varget at +/- 2600 fps, that I typically use. The 168 reman ammo and my skills usually produce 1.5 inch results @ 100 yards.
The 175 factory ammo also blew 2/10 primers from brand new Nosler cases. I have a box and a half left but I dont think its loaded for semi auto considering the primer blowouts. I was surprised as the rated fps seems average to mild.
