KNS anti-twist pins?

[mzvarner]

Are these really necessary? I have a S&W M&P 15x that I hope to use in 3 gun. I like the concept, but it just seems like a lot of unneeded parts. Is there a simpler method? Maybe a hollow internally threaded pin/screw that when tightened squeezes the lower?

thanks

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

No they are not necessary. JP makes pins like you are talking about that has small Allen screws on both sides of a threaded pin.

Have had a trigger pin come out of my gun though which ruined my day because I had no spares.

 

[jeeperbryan]

Dont think theyre necessary but i use them.

 

[Facemelter]

Had them on my AR when I had it. I didnt shoot it enough to warrant the trigger pins to become loose,but I installed them anyway as cheap insurance. And they dont look to terribly bad either.

 

[Laseredge]

Dont think theyre necessary but i use them.

+1 Me too.

 

[SWThomas]

They came on the GAP-10, so I'll keep them.

 

[tylerw02]

Are these really necessary? .

No.

I like the concept

Why? What do you expect to gain from the pins, that were designed to rotate, not rotating?

but it just seems like a lot of unneeded parts.

All of these additional parts are unneeded.

Is there a simpler method?

Yes, leave it stock.

Hope this helps. Mosey over to M4Carbine. This has been discussed in depth by SMEs there.

 

[sawgunner2001]

I had a trigger pin walk out at a match once, but was fortunate enough to see and repair it between stages before it ruined my weekend. I ordered KNS pins as soon as I got home and installed them on all my AR's.

 

[jeeperbryan]

I thought I read somewhere that Geiselle recommends against them with their triggers. Is that true?

 

[Rhenerie]

I thought I read somewhere that Geiselle recommends against them with their triggers. Is that true?

Yes that is true. Gieselle triggers use a kind of inbetween sized pin. So it will fit in tight lowers but not be too sloppy in loose ones. They are also centerless ground which is very precise and much harder steel than KNS and even most mil spec pins

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Now, I don't know from Adam, as I'm just getting into assembling my first AR. But I've read comments in the past, and threads of lore which discussed "rotating" pins and then the holes get sloppy. Especially after a length of time in a gritty environment, the holes end up sloppy. (I'll repeat the fact that to me this is hear-say, but I understand the semantics of the statement) This is why these 'non-rotating' pins are supposed to be better, AND this also allows the actual bearing surface of the rotating part to be a HARDENED PIN as opposed to a Cast-Aluminum boss.

So, sing out ya'll, on where I'm wrong and possibly even talking outta my ass. These are simply views that I've amassed in my searching and archive diving. Here and elsewhere.

 

[Silverbullet2]

But they look so High Speed, Low Drag!

 

[Cascade_Sherpa]

I had never had them on an AR before but I recently aquired a Mega Maten from here on the Hide and the gunsmith put it together with KNS pins and also a Geisslle SSA trigger as well. I have had no problems with the setup yet but I'm curious and interested in learning more about Geisslle advising against their product being used along with KNS. I don't plan on using the rifle in a competition nor do I live in an area susceptible to dust and grit.....mainly cause it rains 9 freaking months of the year here. Great topic though. Tag for later.

 

[Beef82]

Not neccesary. Good for looks, if you're into that sorta thing. Some report a cleaner trigger pull post install from the better finishing.

My experience, which is limited, the FCG pin holes are far more likely to become loose due to disassembly with the wrong tools and/or by a meathead, in this case the anti-rotation pins can act very well as an anti-walk pin and keep a receiver fit for the scrap pile serviceable.

 

[EdwardArmsCo]

Absolutely 100% necessary. overtime the trigger and hammer pin will stretch out the aluminum around it turning into a wobble. This will eventually stretch out the pin holes causing them to walk out, usually at a very inopportune time. The KNS pins stop that from happening and they let the hammer and trigger ride on the pins as designed to.Why wouldn't you spend the 30 bucks to save your receiver?

 

[bjay]

i dont know whos telling the truth from unnecessary to use them to geissle against them.i did noticed geissle pins are not milspec..BUT on 4 of my AR's using all types of geissele triger everyone of them has KNS..i hear a lot of negatives about pin slowly wear out receiver hole i also tried playing trigger and hammer without kns AND did see trigger pin look like its rubbing receivers rotating while pulling trigger or hammer.SO since i heard negative things NOT having them instaled but no negatives review having them instaled i instaled them by the way it does work on all geissele trigger

 

[3O8Junkie]

Absolutely 100% necessary. overtime the trigger and hammer pin will stretch out the aluminum around it turning into a wobble. This will eventually stretch out the pin holes causing them to walk out, usually at a very inopportune time. The KNS pins stop that from happening and they let the hammer and trigger ride on the pins as designed to.Why wouldn't you spend the 30 bucks to save your receiver?

Do you care to cite a source for that? Many very qualified people disagree with that statement.

To the OP, no they are not necessary.

 

[mzvarner]

It sounds like "necessary" is a relative statement. My AR does not have a fancy trigger so thats not an issue. It would really suck to have those pins walk out at a match so I guess if you shoot a lot of matches then it may be "Necessary". In all honesty all after market parts are not "necessary" for the everyday shooter. Ya it may make the gun lighter, trigger feel nicer, etc, but as is they all go bang out of the box. For me personally, looks are important in my guns (do you like the look of a Springfield or a Hi-point better?) and these do look kinda bad ass.

 

[EdwardArmsCo]

I am citing my personal knowledge. I own a 07 C2 manufacturer, guess the name, and we pump out 50 or so custom rifles a month. I have owned several old colts, DPMS etc.. with what I like to call "Walking Pin Syndrom". The reason is simple and any manufacturer can attest to this fact.

FACT 1= When a harder metal is applying pressure to a softer metal, overtime, it WILL wear straight through it.

In this case, the hardened steel pins are applying rotational pressure to the soft aluminum surroundings of the receiver walls. Although this is not for the basic shooter who pumps a few hundred rounds down their barrels each year, the serious guys who train or shoot highpower which is basically 100 rounds per weekend all use them to save their receiver. Again, very little added weight and a whole bunch of positive reasons to use them.

NECESSARY!!! If you don't want to wear out your receiver. Especially with GI parts or other aftermarket triggers that do NOT have their own housing.
It's less necessary for receiver purposes and more necessary because of the engineering of the trigger design for triggers like Timney, Hogan, POF, etc....

 

[tylerw02]

Odd, I guess there are lots of worn out receivers in our military.

Also, will you please tell my receivers they are worn out? Thanks.

As somebody said above, there are TONS of reputable SMEs that advise AGAINST KNS for a reason. It isn't just some sort of personal vendetta. If you have faith in them, use them.

 

[Rhenerie]

I do own KNS pins and I own geissele triggers so I don't even care too much except to get info out to those who ask. I don't think you are going to have any real issues either way unless you shoot way more than most shooters.......

Link to Bill Geissele talking about pins. Go to 9:22http://youtu.be/ujgQ4IsVHF8?t=9m22s:

 

[Smokerroller]

Good find on the video Rhenerie. I don't run ani rotation pins but I am just a hobbiest shooter. I think I will stick with Mr. Geissele's advice.

 

[bjay]

I do own KNS pins and I own geissele triggers so I don't even care too much except to get info out to those who ask. I don't think you are going to have any real issues either way unless you shoot way more than most shooters.......

Link to Bill Geissele talking about pins. Go to 9:22Geissele Automatics - SSA trigger swap - Part 1 of 3 - YouTube

After market pins are soft realy? And his solid 4140 pins compare to kns? Its inserted on forged or billet so bill saying after market pins softer than anyreceiver?any receiver is softer than any pins and they will wear out first

 

[Rhenerie]

Soft compared to hardend steel. However it is very possible to have aluminum be harder than steel. Hardness/strength/elastisity etc arer not exclusive to ferrous metals. Aluminum can be quite hard, but it becomes brittle. Steel can be dead soft, depending how it is alloyed to the point you can smash it with pliers. Plus surface hardness of hard coat anodizing is actually quite high, with a good wear rate.

Didn't quite answer any questions just offering food for thought.

 

[3O8Junkie]

I am citing my personal knowledge. I own a 07 C2 manufacturer, guess the name, and we pump out 50 or so custom rifles a month. I have owned several old colts, DPMS etc.. with what I like to call "Walking Pin Syndrom". The reason is simple and any manufacturer can attest to this fact.

FACT 1= When a harder metal is applying pressure to a softer metal, overtime, it WILL wear straight through it.

In this case, the hardened steel pins are applying rotational pressure to the soft aluminum surroundings of the receiver walls. Although this is not for the basic shooter who pumps a few hundred rounds down their barrels each year, the serious guys who train or shoot highpower which is basically 100 rounds per weekend all use them to save their receiver. Again, very little added weight and a whole bunch of positive reasons to use them.

NECESSARY!!! If you don't want to wear out your receiver. Especially with GI parts or other aftermarket triggers that do NOT have their own housing.
It's less necessary for receiver purposes and more necessary because of the engineering of the trigger design for triggers like Timney, Hogan, POF, etc....

Can I see a picture of one of these worn out receivers that is so common? Verifiable citation not word of mouth please. Not trying to be a hard ass but this is how misinformation gets spread around the net. One thing I love about M4C.net is no claims without verifying them. They might be desirable to some for aesthetic reasons but necessary is a stretch in my book.

I have had a trigger pin walk out once. I just stopped and installed it correctly and it stays where it is supposed to now.

 

[EdwardArmsCo]

Im just going to throw this out there.. If I could show you a picture of an old worn out receiver of mine, I would, but then I wouldn't have been taking my own advice and using some anti-rotation pins...

Ok, well without stirring the kettle to much more, how about we call it good advice from someone who builds several hundred AR platform rifles per year and occassionally a fun little full auto build.

 

[Danco411]

Never had a pin come out. Never wore out the holes in the receivers but then again I never keep a rifle long enough. LOL. Now the KNS extended take down pins...those I can't live without.

 

[3O8Junkie]

Im just going to throw this out there.. If I could show you a picture of an old worn out receiver of mine, I would, but then I wouldn't have been taking my own advice and using some anti-rotation pins...

Ok, well without stirring the kettle to much more, how about we call it good advice from someone who builds several hundred AR platform rifles per year and occassionally a fun little full auto build.

"And who sells them" FIFY

 

[yellowcarbon]

I just picked up a set to run on my 9mm SBR set up. Being blow back, the 9mm is pretty harsh on the FCG pins.

 

[tylerw02]

Im just going to throw this out there.. If I could show you a picture of an old worn out receiver of mine, I would, but then I wouldn't have been taking my own advice and using some anti-rotation pins...

Ok, well without stirring the kettle to much more, how about we call it good advice from someone who builds several hundred AR platform rifles per year and occassionally a fun little full auto build.

In other words, take your word for it without evidence because you say so because you've assembled a few rifles.

 

[red6actual]

Who in the military cares if their lower receiver has worn out pin holes, not one individual!

If the weapon is unserviceable they scrap it and we pay for another for them to carry off and drag in the dirt.

I have used KNS pins on my Colt M16 since new for one reason, it cost me a shitload of $$$ to purchase and even more to replace it.

Those here shooting semi-auto ARs do not need them unless your firing schedule is akin to a SEAL team.

 

[Navybowhunter]

They come standard on my POF. Truly I had no idea what the heck they were at first. NOOB here.

I recently built an AR-15 style lower, from a "New" stripped Aero Precision lower. I used a Stag Lower Parts Kit for that.

Recently, I purchased a Giessele SD-E two stage trigger for my POF 308. The POF-308 comes standard with a Timney drop in single stage 4lb trigger. I would have been an absolute idiot if I did not take that Timney, and replace the "stock" Stag trigger group with the Timney drop in for my .300 AAC build.

Did the swap, and noted, that after "removal" (1st time removal) of the hammer pin (On the AERO Lower); and subsequent reinstall of the drop in Timney, that the hammer pin seemed to want to work loose.

I went with the KNS anti-walk system immediately. What a SWEET and No-Brainer design. Costs like $30, but for piece of mind.., worth it!

No BS here, just a lower in my safe..., working the trigger on that AERO lower, with the new Timney installed..., and a friend present..., put it back in the safe on an "ammo drawer", when I pulled it back out.., guess what was missing? Yup the Hammer pin!

So..., My advice is "do it"!

R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

Guess it is not really an issue for most, until they "remove" them after installing them. That, in my humble opinion, does stretch the metal somewhat, and (is elongate the word?), stretches the hole somewhat! LOL

I run into this on my Ruger 10/22......shit, the stock is the only thing keeping them pins in. Wish some of my Duck/Goose hunting shotguns had a similar design. Even if it were only, that they screwed into eachother! LOL

You all would have Laughed your Asses off, watching me pull the Timney out of my POF. I loosened one side of the KNS Pin, and was like...WTF! It ain't coming loose! This ain't like they show it on the videos.., hell, they don't even have this KNS stuff on most of the videos!

Figured it out right quick, and have a new found respect for the design.

R/
Chris

 

[mzvarner]

@ navybowhunter- I have the same problem with my 10/22 and Rem 870. Damn things just will not stay put. I know there are after market pins that screw into each other for the Rem 870, but IDK about anything for the10/22...Anyone?

 

[Fenix Mike]

My Hogan match trigger setup came with a set, so I installed them, and my SBR lower has them seeing as how I will have that one for a long time. For $30 and the "possibility" of prolonging the life of something I dont ever plan on selling, I installed them. POF and Hogan use them, all their match trigger kits include them, thats good enough for me to put them on a few guns. I cant say if its made a difference, but my gun ADD requires I buy and sell rifles before they ever have a chance to wear.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

@ navybowhunter- I have the same problem with my 10/22 and Rem 870. Damn things just will not stay put. I know there are after market pins that screw into each other for the Rem 870, but IDK about anything for the10/22...Anyone?

Look at Kidd's offerings. They have a set, but you have to chamfer your receiver if I remember correctly (not a big deal).

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

My Hogan match trigger setup came with a set, so I installed them, and my SBR lower has them seeing as how I will have that one for a long time. For $30 and the "possibility" of prolonging the life of something I dont ever plan on selling, I installed them. POF and Hogan use them, all their match trigger kits include them, thats good enough for me to put them on a few guns. I cant say if its made a difference, but my gun ADD requires I buy and sell rifles before they ever have a chance to wear.

POF and Hogan use them because they don't use conventional triggers where the pins are held in by the j-hook and hammer springs.

 

[mbpike]

I've always been of the belief if something is not broke then don't fix it. I see no reason to use KNS pins other then to get cool guy points. If you truly need them because you can't keep pins in your lower then go for it. If not then I'd just save your money for your next range trip.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

I've always been of the belief if something is not broke then don't fix it. I see no reason to use KNS pins other then to get cool guy points. If you truly need them because you can't keep pins in your lower then go for it. If not then I'd just save your money for your next range trip.

I agree, they are 99% sex appeal. For a cheaper option, I think JP offers pins retained by screws for around $11.

 

[thx1138jt]

I had a scare couple weeks ago. The hammer ping walked out half way on me. I just happened to look down, saw it and was able to get it back in. Got a set of KNS pins the weekend after. It was a Spikes lower with pins from Spikes LPK. So they are worth it to me.
If you do get a set make sure you get the right size. They come in .154 and .170. .154 fits most, .170 for Colt large pin holes.

 

[normbal]

I put these in a DPMS REPR just on a whim as someone had already installed anti-walk/rotation pins in another DPMS AR10 I'd bought and I liked the feel of the trigger.

If properly installed (they require reaming of the hammer), what they do isn't just to keep the pin holes from wearing, or the pins in place, but they keep the trigger-hammer
engagement (the sear) level/parallel along the length of the sear so it breaks evenly, cleanly, smoothly, uniformly. It also does the other stuff.

It might make a difference, might not. There's always a Geissele or Timney or other trigger pack setup.

 

[AXEMAN]

They come standard on my POF. Truly I had no idea what the heck they were at first. NOOB here.

I recently built an AR-15 style lower, from a "New" stripped Aero Precision lower. I used a Stag Lower Parts Kit for that.

Recently, I purchased a Giessele SD-E two stage trigger for my POF 308. The POF-308 comes standard with a Timney drop in single stage 4lb trigger. I would have been an absolute idiot if I did not take that Timney, and replace the "stock" Stag trigger group with the Timney drop in for my .300 AAC build.

Did the swap, and noted, that after "removal" (1st time removal) of the hammer pin (On the AERO Lower); and subsequent reinstall of the drop in Timney, that the hammer pin seemed to want to work loose.

I went with the KNS anti-walk system immediately. What a SWEET and No-Brainer design. Costs like $30, but for piece of mind.., worth it!

No BS here, just a lower in my safe..., working the trigger on that AERO lower, with the new Timney installed..., and a friend present..., put it back in the safe on an "ammo drawer", when I pulled it back out.., guess what was missing? Yup the Hammer pin!

So..., My advice is "do it"!

R/
Chris

if you have a timney, unless its different than my timney, there are set screws that will lock in the stock pins with tension. there are two stub screws on each side one to push down inside the receiver and give you tension against the pins and one on top of that one to lock it. did you notice these in the timney??

Odd, I guess there are lots of worn out receivers in our military.

Also, will you please tell my receivers they are worn out? Thanks.

As somebody said above, there are TONS of reputable SMEs that advise AGAINST KNS for a reason. It isn't just some sort of personal vendetta. If you have faith in them, use them.

just out of curiosity, what is that reason?

 

[AXEMAN]

They come standard on my POF. Truly I had no idea what the heck they were at first. NOOB here.

I recently built an AR-15 style lower, from a "New" stripped Aero Precision lower. I used a Stag Lower Parts Kit for that.

Recently, I purchased a Giessele SD-E two stage trigger for my POF 308. The POF-308 comes standard with a Timney drop in single stage 4lb trigger. I would have been an absolute idiot if I did not take that Timney, and replace the "stock" Stag trigger group with the Timney drop in for my .300 AAC build.

Did the swap, and noted, that after "removal" (1st time removal) of the hammer pin (On the AERO Lower); and subsequent reinstall of the drop in Timney, that the hammer pin seemed to want to work loose.

I went with the KNS anti-walk system immediately. What a SWEET and No-Brainer design. Costs like $30, but for piece of mind.., worth it!

No BS here, just a lower in my safe..., working the trigger on that AERO lower, with the new Timney installed..., and a friend present..., put it back in the safe on an "ammo drawer", when I pulled it back out.., guess what was missing? Yup the Hammer pin!

So..., My advice is "do it"!

R/
Chris

if you have a timney, unless its different than my timney, there are set screws that will lock in the stock pins with tension. there are two stub screws on each side one to push down inside the receiver and give you tension against the pins and one on top of that one to lock it. did you notice these in the timney??

Odd, I guess there are lots of worn out receivers in our military.

Also, will you please tell my receivers they are worn out? Thanks.

As somebody said above, there are TONS of reputable SMEs that advise AGAINST KNS for a reason. It isn't just some sort of personal vendetta. If you have faith in them, use them.

just out of curiosity, what is that reason?

 

[Navybowhunter]

I'm a NOOB, hell they come standard in POF's which you cannot touch these days for under $3K
They obviously like em.

My first AR build, I see the "value" in them..., why not..., honestly, what could it "hurt"..., truly that is the deal. What did a KNS pin setup do to ruin someone's setup?

 

[Navybowhunter]

I received some messages that I was "quoted", what an honor, on this topic. Look, NOOBIE, LOL..., BUT, in reality, prove a failure induced by using them pins before bagging upon an improvement...

Do it with statistics, data?

And, NO.., I do not think the battle proven weapons need them.., LOL...I'm quite sure them 20/30 year old weapons function fine!

R/
Chris

 

[Navybowhunter]

As for the 10/22 comments, DAMN I wish they would "perfect that" LOL

 

[bjay]

I received some messages that I was "quoted", what an honor, on this topic. Look, NOOBIE, LOL..., BUT, in reality, prove a failure induced by using them pins before bagging upon an improvement...

Do it with statistics, data?

And, NO.., I do not think the battle proven weapons need them.., LOL...I'm quite sure them 20/30 year old weapons function fine!

R/
Chris

My father has 2 20yrs old colt. He always brag about having th for period time.but he also said he fired them maybe once or twice only.so 30yrs statement not proving anything..sure shooting 300-500 rds every week "friction" bet pin and receiver create

 

[Navybowhunter]

I see absolutely no issues with "typical" military style weapons.., However...the question, "What could go wrong?"
I think KNS has a good product.., maybe not a solution, BUT why would they come up with this if...IF it was not an issue?


My.02 cents

 

[Guest]

4th chrome lined barrel was just removed from my R/R that sees lots of use. Built the girl on a form 1 in 79 or 80. 2nd or 3rd set of pins can't remember but, pin holes are as good today as back then. I've seen pin walk on brand new M16's as well as AR's. When checked every one was found to be out of spec from the get go.
Band-aids come in many different forms, same as snake oil. They do look tacti-cool I'll give them that.

Instill doubt, then sell, American way.

 

[tylerw02]

I see absolutely no issues with "typical" military style weapons.., However...the question, "What could go wrong?"
I think KNS has a good product.., maybe not a solution, BUT why would they come up with this if...IF it was not an issue?


My.02 cents

Why would they come up with it? Because they can SELL it for a PROFIT.