• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Annealing Accuracy Increases?

A

arbogb06

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 4, 2013
148
0
Seaford, DE
I currently reload my own round for my .338 lapua. I am getting good results with my current load and am getting ready to load my brass for the 3rd time. A few questions I had about annelaing brass is how often should you do it? And what are th emost consistant ways to do it without spending around $500.00 on an annealing machine? I see some threads where guys use drills and basically hold it in heir hand. I want to ensure uniformity without spending $500.00.

New Case Neck Annealing Machine

The above annealing machine looks like it would be the most precise and accurate but at $500.00 that is steep. What are the accuracy increases one can realistically achieve if they anneal their brass often? I know th emain purpose is to extend the life of the brass but am wondering if you can see the accuracy gains on paper and at what range do these gains start to become notcieable?

Thanks,

Brandon
 
Here's a machine that's a bit cheaper and is probably just as consistent, if not more consistent: Giraud Annealer

I would also like what people have to say about this. Don't really want to spend $450 right now, but I do want to reload more efficiently by annealing. Makes your cases last longer.

EDIT: Another plus to the Giraud is that you could have it do like 250 cases at a time without having to continually feed it brass. Obviously not a good idea to leave it on unattended for hours, but you could be trimming, resizing, etc while the Giraud is working.
 
Last edited:
Jonesy I do like the Giraud Anneale as well. I like the fact that it has a massive tray for doing 50 + pieces of brass at once without having to hand feed it. This would make the process much easier and like you stated allow me to do two things at once.
 
arbogb06 said:
Anyone with a Giraud Aneeleaer care to chime in? I'd like to know how they like the annealer.
Click to expand...

I use a Giraud. Easy to setup and using tempilaq easy to get it set to the temp I'm looking to achieve. Load it up and drink my coffee while it does its thing. It's so easy and effective that annealing after every firing wouldn't add much to the overall process of my reloading routine.

L
 
Layton. Thanks for the insight. Just called Giraud Tool and the only bad thing is they won't have any to ship until July. Anyone want a new home for theirs?
 
arbogb06 said:
Layton. Thanks for the insight. Just called Giraud Tool and the only bad thing is they won't have any to ship until July. Anyone want a new home for theirs?
Click to expand...

They go up for sale very rarely. When they do, they're gone almost instantly. Good luck finding a used one.
 
On my AR i shot and dump brass.my precision i tried preanealed like lapua's im not aure if it realy makes a diff on accuracy but i know it can stretch your brass life..
 
Unless Bench Source has lowered prices you won't get their annealer for $500. More like $550 plus shipping. Anyway, it is a great machine and I would not hesitate to buy it again.
While accuracy improvement may be minimal you will certainly get improvement. The biggest thing is brass life improvement. At almost $3/ that is big with the 338LM.
 
I'm happy with my Giraud stuff. I have both the trimmer and annealer.

[MENTION=80159]jonesy[/MENTION] recently bought some brass from me that was trimmed/annealed via Giraud, so maybe he'll provide an independent, 3rd party review of how it did.

I load ~150-200pcs in it at a time, and go about my business nearby. You get used to hearing the brass drop, followed by the "k-thwack" sound of the carriage return. It's jammed on me once or twice but because I heard a break in its cadence, I went right over and fixed it, no big deal.

I think its worth the money (easily) because cost of ownership is basically free. Buy it, use it, when your done, sell it at a small loss. Like Dillon, the resale is high, and used machines increase in value as the price of new ones goes up.
 
I have the Giraud also, I've never really bragged it up before. It is a SOB to get set up each time, nothing is repeatable. I regulated mine and run a 10lb cylinder, so my flame won't get as hot as before, not sure if it was a mistake. On Sunday I did 520 saum brass, best batch to date, with only one primed case! No detonation.
I can't say if it helps or not, my brass is mostly newer stuff, but I like the unit. And unlike turbo, I can't see selling when I'll need it later.
My brass looks nothing like most pics posted here, mine has kind a rust color hue, with the necks turning silver, bright color. I think it's my media polish causing it.
Not bashing, but if I had it to do over, I'd buy the benchsource with 3 torches, and run fast. I seem to sit and babysit mine anyway, I could just as well be feeding brass.
 
turbo54 said:
[MENTION=80159]jonesy[/MENTION] recently bought some brass from me that was trimmed/annealed via Giraud, so maybe he'll provide an independent, 3rd party review of how it did.
Click to expand...

The brass looks great. Looks like the Lapua stuff when you get it new. I can't give a comparison as to how it performed versus not annealing since I don't have a control group of work hardened brass to compare it to. I can say that the loads I'm shooting with that brass and the rifle work together amazingly well.

I really want to get one of the Girauds. Probably will in the next few months.
 
I have the bench source, it is a great machine & not cheap. The adjustability is awesome. You can get it for $507 shipped if you send check or mo. A friend has a Giraud & loves it. I do see differences in accuracy now, but it is most likely from multiple changes in my loading techniques. Full case prep, annealing, consistent neck tension & very little to no runout. Annealing allowed for more consistent neck tension & more loads per case. The above post was correct about rarely seeing used machines up for sale & the first person to see it usually buys it. You will only regret not getting one if this is something you plan on doing for a long time. If its in your budget, get one or save to get one. BTW I also load 338LM & soon to be 300 Hulk. I don't necessarily enjoy buying lapua brass for $2.60+ ea
 
milo 2.0 said:
It is a SOB to get set up each time, nothing is repeatable.
Click to expand...

My experience is completely opposite here. It is very repeatable with me. I check my temps with tempilaq each time as it's so easy why not. Also, am I reading right in that you annealed live primed brass? And what was your rationale for redesigning the gas system since it's so simplistic and convenient as is?

L
 
I have the Bench Source and couldn't be happier with the unit...$500.00 is definitely not the right number.
Not to mention you still have to buy the torches and assorted propane bits and pieces and a tank.
Its not cheap, but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I anneal cases from 223 to 50BMG. Roughly speaking the 223 is probably 1000/hour, 308 is a bit slower, and 50BMG is 300-400/hour. More torches would make it faster, but I see no huge upside.
Set up the machine once, record the setting and torch positions, and you are good to go .
The little microprocessor timer thingy and the slick torch mounts make it a snap.

My bud has a couple of Giraud's machines, but I think his unit is best for very large runs of brass...Setup is ssslow.
Definitely not for 20 here 50 there shooting. If you have to setup the Giraud the Bench Source will setup and run of a few hundred....and will likely be on the next caliber.
I would not hesitate to buy a Giraud if it suited your volume needs.
 
Friend of mine has a Benchsource. They are nice. It's like debating which flavor ice cream is better. You can't go wrong with either. A big reason I went Giraud is they are local to me.

L
 
Layton said:
My experience is completely opposite here. It is very repeatable with me. I check my temps with tempilaq each time as it's so easy why not. Also, am I reading right in that you annealed live primed brass? And what was your rationale for redesigning the gas system since it's so simplistic and convenient as is?

L
Click to expand...

We've been over this before, the flame, because of pressure was way high. I tried to double needle valve the thing, propane dude and myself just went with reg. I didn't want to mess with buying green bottles when I had a nice size tank. I'm not the only one here. So far it's really only done short mag style brass, and lots of it at a time. Switching to .223 will be a pain.
The primed case, my fuckup, didn't find it till I sized cases.
As for simple, I call bullshit.
 
LOL, whew!! I thought you meant you annealed all of em primed. Was gonna say here's your sign. I had thought about converting mine but it really is that simple from my perspective. Same time/resistor setting each run, flame is easy to eyeball so really not much to it. The Bench Source is pretty damn easy too.
 
Layton said:
LOL, whew!! I thought you meant you annealed all of em primed. Was gonna say here's your sign.
Click to expand...

It wasn't the first time, I had one go off, luckily I just got up to get something out of the freezer, fuck! Quickly remembered I had 4 primed cases unaccounted for, got the other 3 out.
There was a thread on annealing primed brass awhile back, of course my response was, " when is someone gonna ask if loaded rounds were ok", then of course it's me that sets one off!
I know, here's my sign, at least I can laugh at my own dumb ass!
 
I'll opine on this some more...

The disclaimer is I have ONLY used a Giraud, so I can't give any insight to the other machines.

I bought a Giraud because of 3 key reasons:

1. I already had his trimmer and really like it. It's a well designed, well thought out device that does the job it's designed to do.
2. The resale of Giraud stuff is high, so cost of ownership is low when you decide to sell.
3. It's the only unit on the market that has a "hopper" or "reservoir", so that it will run autonomously.

I've not found setting it up to be difficult at all. There are only a couple of adjustments on it...

1. There is a single screw that secure the rotary feeder plates to the driveshaft. There are two feeder plates, and then spacer plates to hold them apart. You can stack a different amount of spacer plates to account for different length brass. There are 3 different sets of feeder plates; 1 set to cover ~223ish cases, 1 set to cover ~308ish cases, and 1 set to cover the magnums. So far I've only annealed 243/260/708/308 cases and 284win cases. I use the same feeder plates and the same spacing for all, so I've not had to mess with the feeder plates or spacers at all, except for the initial setup. Maybe I got lucky, but I eyeballed it and said "that looks good" and it's worked great from the beginning.

2. There are 2 screws that you you use to adjust the torch position. You can tighten these enough the torch stays put, while leaving them loose enough you can adjust it with your hand as needed. I've found for the 308 and 284 cases, the distance from the torch to the carriage doesn't need to be changed. The angle of the torch does need to be adjusted however, because of the different shoulder location of these two cases. An eyeball alignment is more than adequate, and takes 10 seconds or less. I adjust the distance of the torch so that point of the blue portion of the flame will intersect the longitudinal centerline of the cartridge case.

3. There are 2 case carriages; a narrow one and a wide one. I've been using the wide one for both 308 and 284 cases.

4. Gas valve. I've almost found this to NOT be an adjustment at all. When I first started using and tinkering with the machine, I played with the balance of flame and carriage speed a lot, but I've found that isn't needed. You open up the gasvalve until you have an aggressive flame. You'll find as you open the throttle (so to speak) at a certain point the length of the hot blue portion of the flame doesn't get much longer, only the sound of the flame changes. I turn up the gas valve for about the max blue flame length.

5. Carriage speed. I turn off the lights and let my eyes get used to the darkness for a couple of minutes. I adjust the carriage speed so the casemouth is starting to turn a dull red just before it drops. You can also adjust this by watching for the "orange fringes" of flame that start to come off the case.

I will say that when I first started using the machine, I had trouble getting the flame strength/carriage speed balance correct. The "power" of the flame would change over the course of 5-10 minutes simply on account of the fact the amount of fuel (and therefore the vapor pressure) consumed from the bottle. I found I was constantly messing with the flame/speed adjustments trying to keep it balanced and correct.

Once I learned to just run the flame hard and focus on the carriage speed adjustment, this issue went away. The combination of the smallish fuel bottle and gas regulator makes it just about impossible to maintain an even, consistent flame - IF you are trying to maintain a nice easy flame. If you crank it up, it stays consistent and nice.

To switch from 308 to 284 cases takes me less than a minute. As I indicated before, the angle of the torch has to be adjusted. Without no flame, I lay a case on the carriage, look down on it from above and adjust the torch angle by hand until it looks right. Then I light the torch, turn the machine on, feed it a case and watch for the dull red. I adjust the carriage speed accordingly. It usually only takes me 2 or 3 cases to get it just right. Then I start stacking cases into the feeder.
 
milo 2.0 said:
It wasn't the first time, I had one go off, luckily I just got up to get something out of the freezer, fuck! Quickly remembered I had 4 primed cases unaccounted for, got the other 3 out.
There was a thread on annealing primed brass awhile back, of course my response was, " when is someone gonna ask if loaded rounds were ok", then of course it's me that sets one off!
I know, here's my sign, at least I can laugh at my own dumb ass!
Click to expand...

LMAO! :)
Well that would wake you up in a hurry!
Must have been loud as hell! :)
 
Good report Turbo. I should have mentioned similar cases are easier to set up.
I do think the Giraud would benefit from a better torch/regulated propane system, but that stuff is expensive.
Dual torches would make it faster yet.

My problem is I might anneal 6mmbr, 338 Lapua, and 50 BMG one after another. Those adjustments take a little longer on the Giraud.
Speaking of which....Can the Giraud do BMG?
 
X-fan said:
LMAO! :)
Well that would wake you up in a hurry!
Must have been loud as hell! :)
Click to expand...

I kinda laughed also, and said I'd never post I did it. It wasn't that loud, but definetly you know something went awry. Primer poked quite a dent in my aluminum bread pan I was catching my brass in. I'm just glad I stood up and moved, the blast would have hit me high center chest, to close to the eyes for comfort.
You may gather that I'm easily entertained.
 
I got the bench source a couple of years ago and don't regret it a bit. Super easy to set up and I can do 200 cases HAND FEADING them in less than 20 min. I would never leave a flame un-watched
 
Another quick question I have is when setting up and running this for the same round on the benchsource of Geriaud do you have to use the tempilaq paint every time for every round or just for initial set up. It looks like the bench source you just set it up once write down your setting and that round is good on those settings forever. What is the magical setting feature one would be looking for? A specific surface temperature on the neck portion? Inside or Outside? I know the tempilaq burns off at a certain temperature so this is a good indicator but at what temperaturw do you want the brass to reach?

Thanks.
 
arbogb06 said:
Another quick question I have is when setting up and running this for the same round on the benchsource of Geriaud do you have to use the tempilaq paint every time for every round or just for initial set up. It looks like the bench source you just set it up once write down your setting and that round is good on those settings forever. What is the magical setting feature one would be looking for? A specific surface temperature on the neck portion? Inside or Outside? I know the tempilaq burns off at a certain temperature so this is a good indicator but at what temperaturw do you want the brass to reach?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
You use the tempilaq for setup only. From there the machine makes the process identical every time.
The objective is to get the 750 degree to go off then take it out of the heat....Simple!
I put it on the outside
 
What is wrong with just using a torch and drill ?
Consistentancy ?
Speed?

I just did 200 rounds , and I think they came out pretty good

Kyle
 
Nothing wrong with the drill/socket/torch method at all.

Its just that if you've got lots to do, the machine makes it easier.
 
Last edited:
A bit of an old thread but I recently performed a test to answer the OP's EXACT question: what kind of gains in accuracy and precision can be seen on paper before/after annealing?

Here is picture of test done with 5th fire Non-annealed brass and Annealed 6th fire brass:

naga2yba.jpg


For full thread, click here: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=259933

Hope someone can try this same test or similar.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Cole440
Dark necks on annealed cases
Replies
11
Views
400
Cole440
Cole440
moonstalanda
Annealing
Replies
30
Views
1K
secondofangle2
secondofangle2
R
Rate My Annealing...
Replies
5
Views
428
Doom
Doom
H
Brass lifespan
Replies
8
Views
439
Ledzep
Ledzep
P
Ammo Annealing Service
Replies
6
Views
734
Painterbolt
P
Top Bottom
Back