I have started a post in other areas on SH but didn't get the answers I was looking for. I run the ballistic AE app on my iPhone right now but just don't get the results I want with it. I don't know if it's just the fact I can't put in enough data to get enough out of it or what. But I wanna go with a dedicated PDA for ballistic software only and a kestrel with blue tooth. I am shooting a DTA SRS with a US optics 5-25 Tpal and the Horus reticle. I have my eye on the nomad PDA I know it's up there in cost but if its more accurate then a iPhone app and will get me on target better then I thinks it's worth it. So fellas please chime in and let me know what you think.
- Thread starter Rowdyryno
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Ballistic calculators are great and will get you close, but Dope wins every time. Go to a benchrest match and see how many guys are actually inputting data as they go. Bryan Litz's applied ballistics app is as good as any pda or kestrel with horus atrag that you can get, and often has more options, inputs, and easier to use interface. But you should probably cnsider shooting more and taking more notes. Just my opinion
The PDA won't affect the accuracy of the software, but it will determine what you can run on it. FFS and Patagonia run on PDAs like the Nomad (or better the newer Juno) but they have a hefty price because they are ruggedized, unlike your phone or iPod. That said, the vast majority of shooters I come across do fine at the range with a phone or iPod running Ballistic, Shooter, BulletFlight, etc.
Now if you're not getting good results with those apps, my first guess would be you're not inputting good data. Ballistic calculators at the core are just that: calculators. They ultimately take a number of input variables, apply them to terms within a ballistic function and compute a result, but if you're not giving it accurate variables to work with the results will be poor. Crap in, crap out. Assuming you're shooting beyond 300m, at a minimum you need a weather station of some sort like a Kestral, so you can input proper environmental conditions. Next, you need to know the variables of your rifle and ammo, particularly bullet mass (which should be a no brainer) and velocity. If you haven't chronographed your loads, how do you know what your average velocity is? You also need to get an accurate number for your sight height (center optic to center bore). The more accurate and detailed your input data, the more accurate the ballistic function can calculate.
Myself and a whole lot of people here have done just fine with the inexpensive apps you can run on your phone or iPod. They are an incredible value and are very useful for precision shooting. However, if you're shooting ELR distances, you will likely find those apps start to fall apart on you around a mile or so, and that's when you know it's time to upgrade.
Now if you're not getting good results with those apps, my first guess would be you're not inputting good data. Ballistic calculators at the core are just that: calculators. They ultimately take a number of input variables, apply them to terms within a ballistic function and compute a result, but if you're not giving it accurate variables to work with the results will be poor. Crap in, crap out. Assuming you're shooting beyond 300m, at a minimum you need a weather station of some sort like a Kestral, so you can input proper environmental conditions. Next, you need to know the variables of your rifle and ammo, particularly bullet mass (which should be a no brainer) and velocity. If you haven't chronographed your loads, how do you know what your average velocity is? You also need to get an accurate number for your sight height (center optic to center bore). The more accurate and detailed your input data, the more accurate the ballistic function can calculate.
Myself and a whole lot of people here have done just fine with the inexpensive apps you can run on your phone or iPod. They are an incredible value and are very useful for precision shooting. However, if you're shooting ELR distances, you will likely find those apps start to fall apart on you around a mile or so, and that's when you know it's time to upgrade.
Just an FYI,
During a past Gunsite XLR Class, two different shooters, simultaneously running a Nomad w/ FFS and an iPhone with an App (me included) saw the App work great until we went past 1500m then the App would mysteriously go off by a full Mil until we reset it. Did it more than once on both units. Now, not all Apps are created equal, and they tend to update and fix them all the time, so it could have just been that build, but something to consider. Different builds, versions, etc, can have issues because the Apps are not very robust.
If you are shooting far, you are spending a good deal of money, so why skimp on the software. A Nomad with either Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the way to go. (I have both loaded on one unit) If you want to save money, just get a cheaper unit like a Trimble Recon and run ColdBore, you'll save about half the cost of a Nomad, but still have all the features and function, plus a desktop companion that will allow you to speak and update your mobile device. In my mind that is the only way to compromise when shooting past 1000 yards, by getting a Recon or equivalent unit and sticking with CB1. The results will be much more secure than using an App...
I use Apps for reference and inside 1k, but anything else, they are really just a placeholder for a real ballistic computer. Personally I am not a fan of how Point Mass handles information, it is very biased and tends to punish people for not knowing everything they should, or using the wrong G Model. Where both FFS and CB1 handle things much better, and are not dependent on picking the right drag model, they don't care which you use. (In fact FFS only uses G1)
During a past Gunsite XLR Class, two different shooters, simultaneously running a Nomad w/ FFS and an iPhone with an App (me included) saw the App work great until we went past 1500m then the App would mysteriously go off by a full Mil until we reset it. Did it more than once on both units. Now, not all Apps are created equal, and they tend to update and fix them all the time, so it could have just been that build, but something to consider. Different builds, versions, etc, can have issues because the Apps are not very robust.
If you are shooting far, you are spending a good deal of money, so why skimp on the software. A Nomad with either Field Firing Solution or Patagonia ColdBore is the way to go. (I have both loaded on one unit) If you want to save money, just get a cheaper unit like a Trimble Recon and run ColdBore, you'll save about half the cost of a Nomad, but still have all the features and function, plus a desktop companion that will allow you to speak and update your mobile device. In my mind that is the only way to compromise when shooting past 1000 yards, by getting a Recon or equivalent unit and sticking with CB1. The results will be much more secure than using an App...
I use Apps for reference and inside 1k, but anything else, they are really just a placeholder for a real ballistic computer. Personally I am not a fan of how Point Mass handles information, it is very biased and tends to punish people for not knowing everything they should, or using the wrong G Model. Where both FFS and CB1 handle things much better, and are not dependent on picking the right drag model, they don't care which you use. (In fact FFS only uses G1)
Which Nomad features/models are most useful? I assume they Bluetooth to the Kestrel and the Vectronix 25CBT.
My Nomad is at Vectronix now being tested with the PLRF 25BT so they make sure it runs on the set up and with the software.
That was gonna be my next question I wanna make sure the nomad works with the kestrel and a range finder so it's def getting the right data. When will you hear back from them on that lowlight?
Outstanding!
I spoke with one of the Vectronix techs a couple of weeks ago. He mentioned that the Vectronix doesn't BT to the Kestrel Horus or Applied Ballistics "yet." The possibility of that BT upgrade as well as Mac OSX/iOS compatibility was mentioned as forthcoming.
I was intrigued by the possibility of buying/carrying one less doodad, but from what you say features would be sacrificed.
Will CB1 work on a Recon 200x w/5.0? Or would it need to be upgraded to WM6.0?
Also do any of the forum sponsors sell the CB1 software to install on the Recon?
Thanks
Also do any of the forum sponsors sell the CB1 software to install on the Recon?
Thanks
i went all in and bought a 900LC nomad new in box on ebay last year for 750.00 shipped. lol. yes i got more than lucky. i purchased the ffs and have been more than happy with everything that it is capable of doing. i run a kestrel 4500BT and wow is that a nice option. i haven't yet graduated to getting a vectronix but im always eyeing them. on my nomad i can take pictures and store all my firearms,serial number loads on and on with the things you can do and the things that i am still learning. if you can afford it get it if not many have done just fine with iphones and such.
lowlight- does Patagonia ColdBore have anything over the ffs?
lowlight- does Patagonia ColdBore have anything over the ffs?
The Juno looks nice and compact but only the Nomad currently has the correct SD slot to run FFS.
The Recon & Juno will only run ColdBore . (It doesn't appear the Juno has any card slots? )
There are inexpensive HP iPAQs that will work sub $500 so that is an option just not a ruggedize device like the Trimbles.
The Recon & Juno will only run ColdBore . (It doesn't appear the Juno has any card slots? )
There are inexpensive HP iPAQs that will work sub $500 so that is an option just not a ruggedize device like the Trimbles.
I am not 100% sure but I believe WM6.0 is required, it may work on 5.0 but I would check as I don't recall.
ColdBore is different enough to consider especially if you wildcat or like to tinker. It's pretty much the only choice that works on both your desktop and Mobile device and will seamlessly move data between both. It's nice for guys who want custom back up charts like DA Tables specifically for their loads and rifles. Some people find it a bit layered, they like ease of FFS better, solution wise they are very similar.
Its a web based download that is updated often, which is why it works on the smaller units. FFS is chip based and needs a specific slot configuration. It's more expensive than CB1 but well worth the investment. ColdBore is definitely a bargain at the price with a lot of tools. The fact it works on both your desktop and PDA doubles your horsepower and they value.
ColdBore is different enough to consider especially if you wildcat or like to tinker. It's pretty much the only choice that works on both your desktop and Mobile device and will seamlessly move data between both. It's nice for guys who want custom back up charts like DA Tables specifically for their loads and rifles. Some people find it a bit layered, they like ease of FFS better, solution wise they are very similar.
Its a web based download that is updated often, which is why it works on the smaller units. FFS is chip based and needs a specific slot configuration. It's more expensive than CB1 but well worth the investment. ColdBore is definitely a bargain at the price with a lot of tools. The fact it works on both your desktop and PDA doubles your horsepower and they value.
As far as I know, FFS is available on microSD as well.
Ah, I didn't realize they offered micro-sd but I see that now.
PDA for Long Range
Hi Mate,
I went through a similar process about 18 months ago & here is where I ended up - but a bit of history first. I started off using Loadbase software on my desktop, then I picked up a used Dell AXIM that I trialled the Loadbase mobile on. It worked really well, & did not shut down on a hot day like the iPhone did ( gets to be a bit of an issue in Australia, as normally good shooting weather also happens to be hot days, but I digress ).
I decided to look for a ruggedised PDA that had Bluetooth & ended up with a Getac PS535F. I managed to get a lightly used one from evilbay for about $300 & I was well impressed at that price. They do seem to appear from time to time & seem to sell for between $250 to $600 or so depending on condition & how much demand there is at the time.
Recently I updated the software to Coldbore on both the desktop & Coldbore Mobile on the Getac. The Getac runs Windows Mobile 6.1, it has an inbuilt GPS that I use with both Coldbore & OziExplorer moving map & navigation software, & it has Bluetooth. I recently upgraded my Kestrel to a 4500 unit with Bluetooth so that now handles most of the atmospheric inputs easily. There is also a SD slot so I could run FFS if I wanted to.
There is a pic of the Getac below - those will sharp eyes will note that it is a little out of date as its showing Loadbase Mobile - I have not taken any pics of it with the new Coldbore Mobile edition software. I'd better get onto that at some stage.
Cheers.
Hi Mate,
I went through a similar process about 18 months ago & here is where I ended up - but a bit of history first. I started off using Loadbase software on my desktop, then I picked up a used Dell AXIM that I trialled the Loadbase mobile on. It worked really well, & did not shut down on a hot day like the iPhone did ( gets to be a bit of an issue in Australia, as normally good shooting weather also happens to be hot days, but I digress ).
I decided to look for a ruggedised PDA that had Bluetooth & ended up with a Getac PS535F. I managed to get a lightly used one from evilbay for about $300 & I was well impressed at that price. They do seem to appear from time to time & seem to sell for between $250 to $600 or so depending on condition & how much demand there is at the time.
Recently I updated the software to Coldbore on both the desktop & Coldbore Mobile on the Getac. The Getac runs Windows Mobile 6.1, it has an inbuilt GPS that I use with both Coldbore & OziExplorer moving map & navigation software, & it has Bluetooth. I recently upgraded my Kestrel to a 4500 unit with Bluetooth so that now handles most of the atmospheric inputs easily. There is also a SD slot so I could run FFS if I wanted to.
There is a pic of the Getac below - those will sharp eyes will note that it is a little out of date as its showing Loadbase Mobile - I have not taken any pics of it with the new Coldbore Mobile edition software. I'd better get onto that at some stage.
Cheers.
How well do the Nomad's hold up to a colder environment?
I've used mine out in the 20's with no problems. i'm pretty sure that surveying equipment is made to take many varying temp's and condition's.
Do any sniper's hide dealers sell Nomads?
For you guys using a nomad with FFS, when you start the gps by selecting ranging>gps>start. Does your bearing ever stay on a specific number once sattelites are locked on? Reason i ask is mine will acquire satellites and fix a position but the bearing is always changing even if the nomad is not being moved and the little compass in the upper left is always rotating. Just wondering if is normal.
Sorry for the hijack but figured there were guys looking at this thread with experience.
Sorry for the hijack but figured there were guys looking at this thread with experience.
yes is normal, walk and you can see the compass stable...
Thanks for the reply, hadn't thought of that.
ETA: Tried it out while moving and you were 100% correct!
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I just picked up a Juno it should be here today as well as FFS. Will try and get it loaded for the weekend and watch the videos.
I have a trimble recon with loadbase and nightforce xbal loaded on it that will probably have to go now.
I have a trimble recon with loadbase and nightforce xbal loaded on it that will probably have to go now.
Does ColdBore interface with the Kestrel 4500 via BT? Can't find that anywhere.
Yes Coldbore works with a Kestrel and interfaces with it ...
Thank you.
I am running FFS on a used Pharos 565. It has good battery life, the accurate GPS chip, bluetooth for hookup to a Kestrel, and Wi-Fi. These can be found for about $80 on ebay. I bought one for $80, and one for $60 (so I have a back-up - never needed it yet). I got a rubberized case that helps protect it.
The Pharos 565 runs FFS just fine. I have used it in matches and an the range (fine dirt environment). I just give them a wipe with a towel afterwards and they are fine.
The Pharos 565 runs FFS just fine. I have used it in matches and an the range (fine dirt environment). I just give them a wipe with a towel afterwards and they are fine.
I have some new trimble nomads posted in the options and accessories section for $665 shipped nib. Going to order ffs this week and run it bi hope it is as good as everyone says it is. Been running shooter on an iPhone with great results to 800 and good results to 1k with a 260 and 300 win mag
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/options-accessories-sale/195677-nib-trimble-nomads.html
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/options-accessories-sale/195677-nib-trimble-nomads.html
Kestrel Ballistics Weather Meters
A cousin attends a class on long range shooting. He tells me about "density-altitude" and that it affects long range shooting. Denaity-Altitude affects flight characteristics of aircraft. Then an ad on Page 51 of the June, 2013, issue of "Predator Xtreme" magazine tells of this Kestral unit with Horus software built in along with the usual weather sensing and with Bluetooth. I'm still learning about this stuff. 20% off until June 30 with promo code PREDMAG.
Go to NKhome.com (800) 784-4221
Click on "Kestral Weather Meters"
Click on "Kestrals with Horus Ballistics" or Click on "Kestral Shooter's Weather Meter with Applied Ballistics"
The unit I'm looking at costs $739.
A cousin attends a class on long range shooting. He tells me about "density-altitude" and that it affects long range shooting. Denaity-Altitude affects flight characteristics of aircraft. Then an ad on Page 51 of the June, 2013, issue of "Predator Xtreme" magazine tells of this Kestral unit with Horus software built in along with the usual weather sensing and with Bluetooth. I'm still learning about this stuff. 20% off until June 30 with promo code PREDMAG.
Go to NKhome.com (800) 784-4221
Click on "Kestral Weather Meters"
Click on "Kestrals with Horus Ballistics" or Click on "Kestral Shooter's Weather Meter with Applied Ballistics"
The unit I'm looking at costs $739.
I looked at both the juno and the nomad , and as I did not want a PHONE , and I liked not having to touch the screen for entering numbers , and I get the impression the nomad is solid/ruggered , I went with the Nomad , also harder to loose it , as its bigger than the juno .
Later Chris
Later Chris
That's twice the mil discount. Not too shabby for a mag coupon.
Also, nit-picking, but Density-Altitude (DA) is just a convenient way to show air density...which is actually what affects the bullet's trajectory. Some good reading here... Equations - Air Density and Density Altitude
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I have only used the Atrag MM with the basic HP PDA, is the Cold Bore software considered to be the best out there right now? Atrag is okay, but it seems like it would be nice if you could input more data and use a G7 instead of a G1 BC (with trying to adjust for various velocity changes/ranges). I am sure "best" is pretty subjective, but I am looking for something new, what you guys think, and most importantly why you think a certain software is better.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Personally, I've used the NF program, KAC app, ATRAG, ABC, Applied Ballistics & Field Firing Solution. I have not used the cold bore but can honestly say I love the the FFS with a GPS enabled PDA it is hard to beat. All the others seemed precise till around 11-1200 meters after that the FFS really shines and separates itself for accuracy. Always remember though, garbage in is garbage out in your ballistic programs. I chrono all my round lots and do about 10-20 rounds per lot to verify repeatability (consistency) between powder/ammo lots. Good luck and enjoy ( plus Blaine is very consumer friendly)
+1 to Blaine Fields being a good guy. He has never left an e mail unanswered for more than a few hours. Even on a Sunday!
Just to throw my 2 cents worth in. I've played with Exbal on a Dell AXIM PDA that I bought off ebay, JBM's free Ballistic software, and Bryan Litz' ballistic calculator that comes with his book, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting." I run my come ups based on my handloads that I've chrono-ed at the range. I have to admit that the come-ups that I get with the free software from Bryan Litz is spot on accurate, all the way out to 1000 yds, which is the maximum distance that I'm able to shoot where I live. So, the lesson for me is to know your load, know your weapon, know your scope, and trust your calculated come-ups and "dope". Then all you have to worry about is making good wind calls. Don't need a lot of technology or gadgets that will fail in the field. Just need a laminated 3x5 card.
I agree that knowing your DOPE is more important than anything and not just on a card but to KNOW IT. I too was a non believer with PDAs when they first hit the scene. But I eventually learned and accepted that they are another tool to help support skills. I believe all to often this tool becomes a crutch. But, it is the users job to use it as an aid and tool to help refine or support skills. I also want to throw in though, at certain distances the programs can save time, money, and aid in shots on target that would otherwise have been thought of as ludicrous just a short time ago. Once upon a time the magic number was 1000m now with modern rifles, ammo, and PDAs I feel the new standard is about 1600-2000m. And we all saw a 375 cheytac go 3000+. Yes the target was big and yes in combat that shot does not make a lot of sense, but still it was made and shows what we are capable of today with the right setup. In the end though you can have all the Gucciest shit in the world, but if the spotter and shooter are garbage you just have an expensive Thunder stick!
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