Automated high Speed Case Trimmer and Annealer Poll

[huntersedge89]

Hi, I am currently working on a senior design capstone project. Our team has decided to design a automated high speed case trimmer and annealer for reloaders.

As part of the project we need to conduct a market survey. I thought that this would probably be one of the best places to get as many responses as possible from our target market. Which is high volume competitive shooters, who reload.

Here is a little information about the current design:

-Automatically trims and anneals rifle cases in one platform.
-Trims and chamfers cases to length in one step
-Bench size machine
-Fully adjustable for all cartridges and calibers (comes set up for 308 Winchester and 223 Remington)
-Automatic case feeder is an ad on feature, standard model feeds from a tube mounted to the machine.
-Cases automatically feed and ejected from machine.
-Switching calibers is quick and simple
-Trims and anneals cases 1 per every 6-8 seconds
-Trimmer and annealer can be run independently of each other or together
-Adjustable output speed

What we would like to know from you guys is how much would you be willing to spend on a machine that preforms the above functions.

This price is with the annealer included, but does not include the powered case feeder (includes a tube feeder).

I also posted this in the reloading section. Please only vote in one of the two polls.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Sportin Wood]

Send me one to try out, and I will give you both a price range and a review on your product.

 

[huntersedge89]

Send me one to try out, and I will give you both a price range and a review on your product.

Right now we are only in the design stage. If we believe the market demand is there and we can build it for a price that consumers are willing to buy it for, we may try to bring this to the market in the future.

 

[huntersedge89]

Also keep in mind that this combines two machines that typically each cost around $400+ and are not automatically fed.

 

[pawprint2]

Is the trim length adjustable? What is the chamfer angle? Is the heat supply via gas (flame) or is it electric? I would be interested in one.

 

[huntersedge89]

Is the trim length adjustable? What is the chamfer angle? Is the heat supply via gas (flame) or is it electric? I would be interested in one.

Yes, the trim length is fully adjustable. Right now we don't have the chamfer angle set. Also it has an chuck, so a standard end mill can be used if you don't want a chamfer. We also plan to have a cutter with a chamfer built in as well. We were considering using the RCBS 3 way cutter head with pilots.

Heat supply right now is gas.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

I'd be interested in one. I'm currently having someone else do all my trimming and annealing for 3 different calibers.

I have no doubts that this can be designed to work effectively, but what about after the sell support? Broken or damaged machines? Will service and replacment parts be provided?

 

[hunter121]

I would buy one.

 

[Gillettehunter]

Great concept. For the right price sales would be brisk. I'd consider one. Bruce

 

[Here2Learn]

All you guys voting $400-500 are a little hopeful. Something like this would easily sell for $800-1000 possibly over 1000. That's a great concept. Keep us updated

 

[super_poot]

I would be interested.

 

[super_poot]

If it works well, Most people would probably pay a premium price. Its always been my experience that machines that try to combine two totally different processes have a way of getting muddled up. Hope we can see some designs or prototypes soon though, it sounds interesting. I dread trimming, and annealing my brass. I would love to have something that automated the process.

 

[turbo54]

All you guys voting $400-500 are a little hopeful. Something like this would easily sell for $800-1000 possibly over 1000. That's a great concept. Keep us updated

$500,000 would be a FABULOUS price on a McLaren F1.

Nonetheless, I would only be willing to pay ~$30,000 for it, because that's how much I can afford to spend on a car.

 

[JohnnyC]

Most automatic annealers are fairly expensive because they can be. More competition is always a good thing, especially one that can be done inexpensively and still maintain quality. I think it's ridiculous that people charge $600 for an annealer that's nothing more than a motor, controller, and a couple propane heads.

 

[finefire]

There is growing interest, one of the big die mfg's is supposed to have a sub $100 electric annealing unit out this fall. Not a competitor to your unit, but will sweep the lower tier of the market

 

[Ballistic Artist]

Don't you usually anneal then size THEN trim? Or can you trim them before sizing? My 300wm cases usually grow in length a bit when I size them. Not trying to be an ass but I was just wondering.

 

[High Binder]

My capstone was quite a bit different and got me a job. That being said, simply combining two machines (one slightly active machine and one totally passive one) into one is not exactly cutting edge or even that interesting. Granted, I went to one of the hardest schools in the nation so... but coming from somebody who's been in your shoes I would suggest brainstorming a little more and focus on projects that a potential employer would look at and be awed. There's a TON of competition for engineering jobs out there right now because the market is flooded with underpaid/out-of-work engineers, especially engineers with no experience. The only 'engineering' your idea would really have would be clocking the trimmer to the axis of the brass, other than that it would just be a cam and a glorified drill. No engineering firm is going to look at that and say, "I want this kid to work for me."

Hit up your capstone prof/adviser for better ideas and keep in mind that your capstone project is a MAJOR part of your extremely small portfolio and employers looking for potential engineers WILL be looking at your portfolio in considering you for a job. For my capstone, I designed and built a variable geometry swash plate very similar to the ones used on helicopters but obviously scaled down and I walked right into a job with it.

Now that being said, I'd say go ahead and make your trim/annealing machine but find a better idea for your capstone.

 

[BigJimFish]

It seems to me that there are some folks out there that do convert large amounts of one caliber brass to another. At least that's what a lot of folks seem to say. Course, I have noticed that most of these folks seem to be doing this to save on dough and therefore may not be your $1000 for an all in one case prep crowd. In any case, it seems the price would have to be less than the $900 required for the two Giraud products together.

 

[huntersedge89]

My capstone was quite a bit different and got me a job. That being said, simply combining two machines (one slightly active machine and one totally passive one) into one is not exactly cutting edge or even that interesting. Granted, I went to one of the hardest schools in the nation so... but coming from somebody who's been in your shoes I would suggest brainstorming a little more and focus on projects that a potential employer would look at and be awed. There's a TON of competition for engineering jobs out there right now because the market is flooded with underpaid/out-of-work engineers, especially engineers with no experience. The only 'engineering' your idea would really have would be clocking the trimmer to the axis of the brass, other than that it would just be a cam and a glorified drill. No engineering firm is going to look at that and say, "I want this kid to work for me."

Hit up your capstone prof/adviser for better ideas and keep in mind that your capstone project is a MAJOR part of your extremely small portfolio and employers looking for potential engineers WILL be looking at your portfolio in considering you for a job. For my capstone, I designed and built a variable geometry swash plate very similar to the ones used on helicopters but obviously scaled down and I walked right into a job with it.

Now that being said, I'd say go ahead and make your trim/annealing machine but find a better idea for your capstone.

At this stage in the project its too late to switch to another idea. But, I think that if you saw our actual project you would see that there is actually quite a bit of engineering work in it. I know this isn't cutting edge technology, but the fact is that most engineers are not working on cutting edge technology. I don't know how your capstone project was set up, but we only had a semester to work on this.

Yes, this project is taking existing technologies and combing them together. But, our design combines, many usually slow manual processes into one automated system which is not currently available to a retail consumer. The only automated case trimmer that we were able to find retails for around $30,000 from camdex, which is well out of the price range of any regular consumer. This system also only trims the cases and caliber conversions are expensive.

 

[High Binder]

At this stage in the project its too late to switch to another idea. But, I think that if you saw our actual project you would see that there is actually quite a bit of engineering work in it. I know this isn't cutting edge technology, but the fact is that most engineers are not working on cutting edge technology. I don't know how your capstone project was set up, but we only had a semester to work on this.

Yes, this project is taking existing technologies and combing them together. But, our design combines, many usually slow manual processes into one automated system which is not currently available to a retail consumer. The only automated case trimmer that we were able to find retails for around $30,000 from camdex, which is well out of the price range of any regular consumer. This system also only trims the cases and caliber conversions are expensive.

Mine was a semester long as well but we had to have a project mapped out the first week and you could only change your project if it was totally fucked. I'm guessing you only have what, about a week left? That's going to be rough. Well, good luck. Since you're so late into it there's not much you can do at this point but try to incorporate some limit switches or the like, employers will like to see the use of some controls.

 

[huntersedge89]

Don't you usually anneal then size THEN trim? Or can you trim them before sizing? My 300wm cases usually grow in length a bit when I size them. Not trying to be an ass but I was just wondering.

You will be able to run the annealer independently of the trimmer if you preferred.

 

[huntersedge89]

Mine was a semester long as well but we had to have a project mapped out the first week and you could only change your project if it was totally fucked. I'm guessing you only have what, about a week left? That's going to be rough. Well, good luck. Since you're so late into it there's not much you can do at this point but try to incorporate some limit switches or the like, employers will like to see the use of some controls.

No, we basically have the project complete and have had it planned out from the beginning of the semester. We purposely decided not to use limit switches and other similar control devices because that would significantly raise the cost of the machine. Quickly putting it out of the price range of the average buyer.

 

[raider1v1]

It seems to me that there are some folks out there that do convert large amounts of one caliber brass to another. At least that's what a lot of folks seem to say. Course, I have noticed that most of these folks seem to be doing this to save on dough and therefore may not be your $1000 for an all in one case prep crowd. In any case, it seems the price would have to be less than the $900 required for the two Giraud products together.

this is what i was thinking. i love the trimmer. i just havent gotten around to buying the annealer yet.

 

[thefitter]

No way I can estimate "how much I would pay" for something sight unseen. IMO if it's not as fast as a Giraud annealer and as accurate as a Wilson trimmer I probably would not be interested.

 

[mikeltee]

If you get this under $1000 you won't be able to keep up with demand. I don't see how you could possible do it for under a grand. Shooting less than 10k rounds a year, I wouldn t spend more than $500, but if I did, I'd gladly spend a stack or more.

 

[sentry1]

That, my good man, is a load of hogwash. First there's limitations in what can be built by an undergrad (I assume he's an undergrad). The school will only kick in so much money, and only has so much tooling available. For my undergrad senior design project, due to insurance liabilities, the school wouldn't let us weld anything, and we were limited on innovation because the school already had an Army contract to build a certain type of device. There's also time limitations, a student only has so much time to devote to a project in between 500 level classes and chasing girls from the liberal arts department.

To the OP: Get on it! Take the time to show organization and leadership skills. Employers won't just be looking at your portfolio, they'll be looking at how you deal with adverse situations, and manage time/money/people. Not to mention, designing this thing, and building it takes a fair amount of skill and innovation anyway.

BTW, I interviewed with the Naval Undersea Warfare Center, Army Research Office, Boeing, Honda, blah blah blah, and no one once asked to look at a portfolio, not even at the final job offer stage.

My capstone was quite a bit different and got me a job. That being said, simply combining two machines (one slightly active machine and one totally passive one) into one is not exactly cutting edge or even that interesting. Granted, I went to one of the hardest schools in the nation so... but coming from somebody who's been in your shoes I would suggest brainstorming a little more and focus on projects that a potential employer would look at and be awed. There's a TON of competition for engineering jobs out there right now because the market is flooded with underpaid/out-of-work engineers, especially engineers with no experience. The only 'engineering' your idea would really have would be clocking the trimmer to the axis of the brass, other than that it would just be a cam and a glorified drill. No engineering firm is going to look at that and say, "I want this kid to work for me."

Hit up your capstone prof/adviser for better ideas and keep in mind that your capstone project is a MAJOR part of your extremely small portfolio and employers looking for potential engineers WILL be looking at your portfolio in considering you for a job. For my capstone, I designed and built a variable geometry swash plate very similar to the ones used on helicopters but obviously scaled down and I walked right into a job with it.

Now that being said, I'd say go ahead and make your trim/annealing machine but find a better idea for your capstone.

 

[sentry1]

No way I can estimate "how much I would pay" for something sight unseen. IMO if it's not as fast as a Giraud annealer and as accurate as a Wilson trimmer I probably would not be interested.

Sure you can, that's how preliminary market research works! It's a guesstimate to get things started. That the consumer's final price point will change is an accepted outcome, the goal is to get an initial baseline and minimize the variance at the end of the product development cycle. See? I totally pay attention in class!

 

[High Binder]

That, my good man, is a load of hogwash. First there's limitations in what can be built by an undergrad (I assume he's an undergrad). The school will only kick in so much money, and only has so much tooling available. For my undergrad senior design project, due to insurance liabilities, the school wouldn't let us weld anything, and we were limited on innovation because the school already had an Army contract to build a certain type of device. There's also time limitations, a student only has so much time to devote to a project in between 500 level classes and chasing girls from the liberal arts department.

To the OP: Get on it! Take the time to show organization and leadership skills. Employers won't just be looking at your portfolio, they'll be looking at how you deal with adverse situations, and manage time/money/people. Not to mention, designing this thing, and building it takes a fair amount of skill and innovation anyway.

BTW, I interviewed with the Naval Undersea Warfare Center, Army Research Office, Boeing, Honda, blah blah blah, and no one once asked to look at a portfolio, not even at the final job offer stage.

Every mech student at my school was taught how to weld (mig/torch) in MECH102 or 103?, basic metal working such as running a lathe and mill were required. My capstone project was self funded and required Pro/E drawings and tons of analysis before I was allowed to build the thing. It helped that I was working as a machinist at the time and had access to even better machines that the ones at my school but my project could still have been made at school. Anyway, I guess there's a significant difference between Mech/E schools out there. Mine was a 162 (if I remember right) credit BS whereas most around the nation are only ~130. So I know I took ~10 more Mech classes than your usual Mech/E but I'm a little surprised you weren't taught welding for liability reasons, that seems like a good thing to understand moving into the real world.

 

[sentry1]

Welding was off limits for us, the school wasn't insured for it. As for funding, we used what the school agreed to pay for. The only thing I ended up paying for was micro strain gages because the vendor had a dispute with the department and wouldn't sell to them until a bill was settled. Never got reimbursed for that.

Then again, my tuition for a 12 credit semester was $2500. I pay more than that for a single grad class now, so I guess I got my money's worth.

I did learn how to weld, but that was later, when I was assigned to work with a subcontractor who built carriage frames for rockets.

 

[High Binder]

Then again, my tuition for a 12 credit semester was $2500.

WTF!?!? I think I paid ~$2,000 for every 3 credit class or ~8,000 for a 12 credit semester!

 

[pawprint2]

There is growing interest, one of the big die mfg's is supposed to have a sub $100 electric annealing unit out this fall. Not a competitor to your unit, but will sweep the lower tier of the market

Finefir, Sir, do you know if it is going to be an induction unit, or just a "hot top" (for lack of a better description)? If it fits a standard die hole, Dillon's sizer/case trimmer in one and the annealing unit in the other you'd have a fairly fast set up, but when you add in the cost of the press (as a dedicated unit) even a cheap lee auto indexing, and the cost of various caliber conversions for the Dillon dies, it would still run 600-1000 or more depending on the number of caliber conversions. Any more info on this unit would be great! Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Hennig]

Id pay 900.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

I don't say this to be flippant, but why are you designing a combination case trimmmer and annealer? I'm looking for the benefit of having both functions in one unit but can't find it. It's a little like designing a combined television and bottle opener - at some time you will want to open a bottle of beer while watching TV, but what's the advantage?

I have the Giraud case trimmer and the Light case annealer. The former is used much more often than the annealer, and it's small enough that I can put it away in a standard 12" deep wall cabinet. If they were somehow joined at the hip, I would have to move a much heavier unit around on my bench when needed, and I couldn't put any part of it away since it would be fairly large. You might be able to share a motor between the trimmer (which runs at high speed) and the annealer (which runs at slow speed) to make the combined unit smaller or save the price of a motor.

I think the design challenge is to make it more than a TV with a bottle opener on the side.

 

[thefitter]

Sure you can, that's how preliminary market research works! It's a guesstimate to get things started. That the consumer's final price point will change is an accepted outcome, the goal is to get an initial baseline and minimize the variance at the end of the product development cycle. See? I totally pay attention in class!

OK I agree to a point, but he never mentioned any specific performances...simplicity of use, accuracy, speed etc,.

If it's not simple to use, very very accurate and fast then it's not worth anything to me. JMO

 

[sentry1]

All good points. That's more business oriented though, I don't know if his curriculum would put as much emphasis on things like market analysis and conjoint studies. Further product development would involve a more detailed user survey to determine what the majority of the market is willing to accept for price/features, and doing a tradeoff analysis to find the product configuration that satisfied the largest consumer base.

OK I agree to a point, but he never mentioned any specific performances...simplicity of use, accuracy, speed etc,.

If it's not simple to use, very very accurate and fast then it's not worth anything to me. JMO

 

[thefitter]

All good points. That's more business oriented though, I don't know if his curriculum would put as much emphasis on things like market analysis and conjoint studies. Further product development would involve a more detailed user survey to determine what the majority of the market is willing to accept for price/features, and doing a tradeoff analysis to find the product configuration that satisfied the largest consumer base.

OK, but I think if they just design the best possible tool...people will buy it. But I'm a gear whore not a business man.

 

[finefire]

Finefir, Sir, do you know if it is going to be an induction unit, or just a "hot top" (for lack of a better description)? If it fits a standard die hole, Dillon's sizer/case trimmer in one and the annealing unit in the other you'd have a fairly fast set up, but when you add in the cost of the press (as a dedicated unit) even a cheap lee auto indexing, and the cost of various caliber conversions for the Dillon dies, it would still run 600-1000 or more depending on the number of caliber conversions. Any more info on this unit would be great! Thanks for the heads up.

Induction. Single unit will do multiple cases, no case conversion necessary. Not automated, but simple and very fast.