Pedophile gets marked

[Maggot]

Gotta kind of wonder about the reporters name, though.







David MacAnally/Eyewitness News

Crothersville - Convicted child killer Anthony Stockelman's face and head were unmarked at his trial last year. But now he's turned up at Wabash Correctional Facility with a tattoo on the forehead reading 'Katie's revenge.'

Katie is Katie Collman of Crothersville, the little girl he confessed to raping and killing last year. The Department of Corrections is not saying who applied the tattoo, which is against prison regulations, or why. They say they are still investigating.

Katie's dad, John Neace, has his own theory. Wednesday he said, "If I had to guess I'd say it's a statement from the inmates."

Katie's father says he heard about the tattoo from friends and has no idea if Katie's distant cousin, who is also serving time at Wabash, played any role.

Neace continued, "When I first saw it I wondered if someone was playing a hoax with these pictures. Then I looked a little bit further and found it was a news channel that was putting his picture out. And I knew it had to be real."

Terry Gray, a Collman family friend told Eyewitness News, "I figure that probably mister Stockelman was given the choice of a tattoo or facing the same thing that Katie did. In the early interviews they have with him when he was in prison, when he first got there, it was kind of like a vacation to him, wasn't too bad at all. So I'd say he probably has a change of heart about that now."

At Crothersville kids enjoy a park dedicated to Katie's memory. The people who devoted their time and talent to build the place were shocked at the little girl's killing, but not so shocked about what happened to her killer in prison.

One said, "I think the prisoners did it to him. I'm surprised he hasn't been killed yet."

Another commented, "I can't really see himself doing that. He's probably regarded very low with the other prisoners."

The Corrections Department is also trying to figure out how that photo of the tattoo got out from behind prison walls. They've moved Stockleman to an area of increased security.

 

[Punisher29073]

My only regret would be that it wasnt a complete sentence. Maybe even a run on sentence, Id be OK with that too. Something like " These markings on my face and body are only a portion of Katie Collmans, sweet little innocent girl that was brutaly raped and killed by me, revenge that I face every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year in this life, in this prison until I reach the next life." Would that fit on his head?

 

[pawprint2]

The sad truth is Wabash prison is wasting tax payers money! They have a large number of "programs" for these types of low life trash, for example:
College Degree Programs
Six Indiana-based colleges and universities, Ball State University, Grace College, Indiana State University, Ivy Tech State College, Oakland City University, and Purdue University, provide on-site college degree programs to incarcerated individuals. With more than 2,400 adults enrolled in degree programs annually, 802 offender students received associate degrees and 307 completed bachelor degrees. The Department’s current research mirrors other national studies in that offenders who participate in college degree programs and complete the programs are less likely to recidivate than any other group.
They also have a large "sex offender" program, this piece of child killing trash will spend the rest of days with a large group of other "sex offenders" comparing notes, and instructing those that are going to get out, on how not to get caught in the future. How we ever ended up with these easy prisons is a mystery. I wish all our prisons were run like real prisons, not "program rich facilities".

 

[Maggot]

Apart from the sex offenders who should not see the light of day again, I'm totally in favor of educational opportunities for prisoners. Anything that helps reduce recidivism is progress. It costs a lot less to educate than incarcerate. They should have to pay back the costs of the education, just as students (theoretically) have to pay back student loans.

 

[pawprint2]

I am in favor of prisons being a "bad" place to go, no free education, etc., all the "special" programs haven't worked, in fact in state after state, the law makers are allowing "early release" do to costs. If going to prison was something low life (child killers for example) scum really didn't want to have happen to them, maybe this would stop crime before it started. The "easy" prison system has had decades of trial, it doesn't work, and is not cost effective. Pelican Bay prison, works, it seems like scumbags really don't want to go to Pelican Bay's Big Max- Martha Stewart's "club fed" really doesn't scare enough criminals into going straight.

 

[pawprint2]

Apart from the sex offenders who should not see the light of day again, I'm totally in favor of educational opportunities for prisoners. Anything that helps reduce recidivism is progress. It costs a lot less to educate than incarcerate. They should have to pay back the costs of the education, just as students (theoretically) have to pay back student loans.

Wow! "Apart from sex offenders...." I know your kidding me (or I hope you are), those that helped the Boston bomber-you'd give a free education to? How about the Boston Bomber himself, as far as I've read he isn't a sex offender. I don't think even Charles Manson was a sex offender. I must disagree, 100%. Use a gun to rob a store (hurting all American's 2nd Adm Rights) and receive a free college ed, room, board, tuition etc.? This is crazy. How about we spend the money on those that don't break the law, work hard trying to make something of themselves. As far as I know, there is public education for all in America now, giving them a little more won't solve the problem. How about the concept of punishment for doing a crime? Why do we even have prisons such as Pelican Bay's Big Max? If easy, "program rich" prisons worked, we'd be damn near crime free by now-they don't work, however; it seems no one wants to go to the Big Max. Why? It's a real prison.

 

[Maggot]

Paw, once again you show your lack of depth, and jus basic ability to think beyond your own little prison.

 

[Unknown]

I doubt that there is much pity from anyone about this guy getting marked like that. I think that prisons need to be places that sane people want to avoid. Sheriff Joe Arapio has the right idea. The idea of giving "freebies" to prisoners bothers people who work in prisons as much as it bothers the general public.

However I am aware that there are various ways to run prisons, and to control inmates. That same "pesky" constitution that is trying to insure our gun rights, also severely limits what I would be allowed to do if I ran prisons. Many of what the public sees as freebies, are actually cost effective ways to both comply with the constitution, and control prisoners.

If in the long run it is cheaper to educate people in prison rather than simply have them bust rocks, then I vote for education. Many institutions DO charge inmates for some programs, or "benefits". In the county where I used to live, if a prisoner wanted out of jail and onto the electronic bracelet, they had to pay for it. Not only did the county no longer have to pay to house and feed the convict, but the convict had to pay to get out of jail. the convicts even had to pay for being on probation or parole.

My guess is that the prison could quickly learn who put the tat on this guy...it is just that some crimes are really hard to solve, (note of sarcasm) and end up in the dead files .

(To the mystery tat artist) nudge, nudge, wink,wink...Don't do that again..nudge, wink, atta boy..now get back in your cell, nudge, wink..here is an extra pack of smokes...

 

[sidewaysil80]

Fact is prison never was or will be a punishment. They are supposed to be places to rehabilitate criminals and re-integrate them into society. While I personally certain offenses should carry automatic and instant death sentences if found guilty, that will never happen. So for all those who get sent to prison and don't have a life or death sentence...the best thing is try to rehabilitate them so upon getting out that have options rather then returning to a life of crime. I understand this is incredibly idealistic and will not also be the case, but it's better then giving them a vacation in prison and letting them right back out into society to do harm.

 

[Flying Goose]

My only regret would be that it wasnt a complete sentence. Maybe even a run on sentence, Id be OK with that too. Something like " These markings on my face and body are only a portion of Katie Collmans, sweet little innocent girl that was brutaly raped and killed by me, revenge that I face every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year in this life, in this prison until I reach the next life." Would that fit on his head?

don't forget with lost of grammatical errors in it just for good measure

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

I'm totally in favor of educational opportunities for prisoners. Anything that helps reduce recidivism is progress. It costs a lot less to educate than incarcerate.

I'm just no having it bro....... Often times our attempts to rationalize the evil that is in the hearts of men is to recommend "education" as a solution. Sure, on an occassion or two an inmate takes advantage and it works (and Hollywood makes a screen play.) Most of those incarcerated in our correctional system (used to be penal system) are repeat offenders taking advantage of the 3 squares a day and the workout facilites and biding their time to get out and repeat. They DON"T WANT help to become productive members of society, that can't be changed by education. I just can't subscribe to the understanding that their actions are related to being "ignorant."

 

[sidewaysil80]

I'm just no having it bro.......

Yeah but whats the alternative? Let them sit in their doing nothing for 10 years and get out and go right back to crime? At least set them up to earn an honest living and you know do the whole rehabilitation thing that prisons/jail are designed for.

P.S.
You want to know what I'm not having...the fact the stat is paying for the tattoo to be removed LOL. Guarantee some puss liberal is behind that one.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

You want to know what I'm not having...the fact the stat is paying for the tattoo to be removed LOL. Guarantee some puss liberal is behind that one.

Well of course..........................just because he raped and murdered an innocent child is not reason for him to be denegrated in that way, he has feelings too............and of course it denegrates his self respect! I'm not having either............

 

[pawprint2]

Needless to say, most of the bleeding hearts fail to answer some easy questions (it is beyond the ability of a few idiots to think outside their own small brains): Why do we have a Big Max and why do criminals not want to go there? What should we do with a criminal that had a degree, but still went out a raped/murder/robbed etc? (Maybe it wasn't the right degree, maybe a masters in a new field of study would help....yea right). Regarding "Cost Effective", this is crazy! The cost of prisons changes from place to place, look at the bleeding heart state of WA- with all their easy programs etc. they spend over 200% more than the great state of LA/prisoner. It costs more to keep a scumbag in prison in New Mexico, than in New York (and new York is High). Cutting out the gyms, and special progams, great meals etc. would cut the cost Way down. The Big Max doesn't have a big gym and prison yard BBall court, etc. Why do we have a Big Max, and why don't low life scum want to go there? Those hiding in their own little minds can't or won't answer, as their bleeding hearts just won't allow it.

 

[sidewaysil80]

I'm not saying EVERYONE deserves/needs to be rehabilitated. Some crimes are so heinous that they deserve death, however I'll settle for life imprisonment...and not the easy kind.

HOWEVER, the majority of prisons throughout America who have rehabilitation programs also have lower re-arrest/re-incarceration statistics. That' solid proof right there, rehabilitation works. Now, it's not a miracle and the system can be flawed, however, as a whole it works better then just leaving them in their to rot, get out, and then come back.

Not to mention, not all constitutional rights are null and void once incarcerated. Cruel and unusual punishment could be cited if we just forced people to stay in their cells all day with no entertainment nor exercise. It would be only a matter of time before mental anguish or degradation was evident based on those conditions.

Now I don't agree with that, in fact, I agree with you. If you do a crime, your time should be miserable so that normal people are deathly afraid of prison. However, I favor the constitution more then my feelings of contempt for convicts and criminals.

 

[pawprint2]

Sir, I understand what you are saying, and it is well said. I do not believe in any torture, however; the Big Max is not torture, and is doing well. I am not convinced regarding free ed for scumbags, and the long term cost savings. Most criminals are in prison, after a plea bargain to start with, they've essentially gotten away with other crimes as part of the deal, most states have a "good time" deal, ranging between 30-50% time off for acting "good". Take an average scumbag that goes to prison -after a plea bargain- getting a 3 year sentence (if they had prosecuted all his crimes to start with it would be much higher-seldom do prosecutors go after the extra five years for the use of a firearm for example), he spent a year in jail back and forth prior to his day in court, if he's in one the easy states, he will only do 18 months, but as he has already spent 12 months in jail (time served) he's back out in 6 months. Many states don't even send them from the county jail to the state prison, as his time would be to short, they just keep him in the county jail. If these "short" terms were in the Big Max, rather than spent in the gym/bb court/playing cards with his "friends" etc. he might think twice before continuing his life of crime. I would much rather see criminals spend their time in a Big Max, once their time is up, if they would like to get an education (learn a trade) I would be willing to help at that point, but not as a reward, or a way to get their prison time reduced, but rather, as a program to help those that are making a free choice to be better people, and give up crime as a way of life. We haven 't even begun to discuss all the other "programs" the bleeding hearts have heaped upon the tax payers.

 

[Downzero]

I am in favor of prisons being a "bad" place to go, no free education, etc., all the "special" programs haven't worked, in fact in state after state, the law makers are allowing "early release" do to costs. If going to prison was something low life (child killers for example) scum really didn't want to have happen to them, maybe this would stop crime before it started.

Except the fact of the matter is that we have the largest prison population in the world and we still have crime. How do you explain that?

 

[Maggot]

Except the fact of the matter is that we have the largest prison population in the world and we still have crime. How do you explain that?[/QUOT

Part of it is that 50% of those incarcerated in the USA are for drug related offense which should not be crimes at all. I'm the first to agree that I one fucks up he should pay for it, but fact remains that education works in many cases, and in all cases is cheaper than repeat offenders.

 

[pawprint2]

Except the fact of the matter is that we have the largest prison population in the world and we still have crime. How do you explain that?

Glad to be of some help! Our prisons are far toooooo eeeeezzzzzz, people are not scared enough to go to prison, for if they were many wouldn't decide on their own to be criminals. Also, the time served is far toooooo short, for their crimes, in fact over 90% of all criminals are in prison as part of a plea deal (fact). Far too often the charges are dropped on a number of the crimes the criminal committed, if he'll plead guilty to XXX, along with x amount of time. Let there be no mistake about it, close to zero criminals did not want to commit the crime, but only stole a loaf of bread to feed their starving child, this is the stuff of myths. If you knew all the crimes they committed prior to getting caught, you'd be amazed at how little time they got-they're amazed too, that is why they go back to the easy life of crime. Why don't scumbags kill cops very often? Easy, they know they have a Very High Chance of getting hunted down and killed. Knowing that the outcome is going to be very bad, such as time in the Big Max, could keep a lot of scum bags from becoming criminals in the first place. Another reason for our high prison pop, is we put people in prison for crimes, if we just executed them as some do, we wouldn't have as many. Lastly, prison in Russia, or turkey may not be a place your average scumbag in a US prison would really want to go, I assume their scumbags feel the same way. The Big Max is clean, safe, secure, no torture, but no frills-it works now, more Big Max like Prisons will continue to work.

 

[pawprint2]

There has always been a % of criminals that come out of prison, and stay out, stop being criminals. If those in charge of prison frills want to amaze people with their super smart ability to "change" people, they HAND PICK those they let into the program- to start with. Those inmates that time has shown are the most likely not to return to prison (based on a number of factors) are "let in" to the program(s), and WAAALAAAA the program is a great hit!! IF the program worked so well, it would be open to all inmates (with the exception of life without types), because if it were the "program" causing the great transformation, and not the handpicking, it would work across the board. Anyone that argues for "hand picking" knows (in their heart, they may not be man enough to admit it) the data is flawed. I'm sure based on data collected over many years, on millions of inmates, a computer could generate a list of inmate names, that, without any program would have less than 10% returning to the criminal life. If I took those inmates and had each dress in a bright red and green jump suit for their stay in prison, in 5 years I could claim my "wild" jumpsuit works! Hand-picking blows the argument from the start. If it works, it would work for all, figures lie, and liars figure.

 

[Maggot]

Paw, Im going to stop here. Its impossible to have a constructive discussion with one who so obviously knows it all there is to know.. Either that or I shouldn't waste my time trying to reason with an idiot..."They wear you down and then beat you with experience." If I could buy you for what your worth, and sell you for what you think your worth I could educate the entire prison population and have enough left over to hire a hefty.

 

[EventHorizon]

There has always been a % of criminals that come out of prison, and stay out, stop being criminals. If those in charge of prison frills want to amaze people with their super smart ability to "change" people, they HAND PICK those they let into the program- to start with. Those inmates that time has shown are the most likely not to return to prison (based on a number of factors) are "let in" to the program(s), and WAAALAAAA the program is a great hit!! IF the program worked so well, it would be open to all inmates (with the exception of life without types), because if it were the "program" causing the great transformation, and not the handpicking, it would work across the board. Anyone that argues for "hand picking" knows (in their heart, they may not be man enough to admit it) the data is flawed. I'm sure based on data collected over many years, on millions of inmates, a computer could generate a list of inmate names, that, without any program would have less than 10% returning to the criminal life. If I took those inmates and had each dress in a bright red and green jump suit for their stay in prison, in 5 years I could claim my "wild" jumpsuit works! Hand-picking blows the argument from the start. If it works, it would work for all, figures lie, and liars figure.

this type of 'reasoning' is hilarious. it is a FAR better use of funds and resources to target programs at those who are most likely to respond positively. To not engage in such filtering would be idiotic. No one says the program is the single cause of the effect of rehabilitation but one contributing cause. I don't know if programs are successful or not but your opinions are based on 'new' logic the likes of which I normally attribute to those who think getting rid of guns would reduce violent tendencies.

Also, you think prison is easy - ever been? Do you actually have any empirical proof of the ease of life for inmates that doesn't germinate and require extraction from your ass?

 

[pawprint2]

Maybe you should go to prison and get your free education. Complete fools make stupid, uneducated statements like, "Part of it is that 50% of those incarcerated in the USA are for drug related offense which should not be crimes at all"!!! What a fool you have shown your self to be! Where did you pull this out of? Put down your crack pipe, you idiot. Unless you want to argue-robbing those houses was so I could get money to buy drugs, therefore my crime is drug related-you might get closer, but still no where near 50%. If you are going to lie with statistics, make up a good lie, you idiot. Just as I stated earlier, figures lie, liars figure, in your case fool make up figures. In any case you can't back up your bullshit.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

A "Just" society would be one where there is a clear boundary between "Freedom" and "Incarceration". Logic would imply a definitive and drastic difference between the two.

Incarceration should include (am primarily made up of,)Gravel pits, sledge-hammers, and screens. When them-there boulders fit through that-there mesh, you can start on the next boulders. Any air-'conditioning' would be a jacket for colder weather, and possibly a hat for when it rains.

Machine-gun AND flamethrowers in the guard towers, surrounding the pit.

Those who are on 'lesser crimes' and whatnot can mix the gravel and whatnot into cement, and make roads by hand, shovel, and hoe. Again, in a chain gang.

ALL sexual predators and pedobastards would then have permanent "racing stripe" tattoo's across their faces and bodies. That way, anyone and everyone forever and ever can spot them in a crowd, point their fingers at'em, and know to STAY AWAY. If they ever survive, to get out, that is.

Or just whack 'em all. I've no use for 'em, and I'm pretty sure most law-abiding civilians don't either.

 

[jcfd2201]

Prison should not be a fun place that criminals aren't afraid of going to. While I don't proclaim to have the answers I do have an opinion on the child molesters and sex offenders. There shouldn't be any PC'ing (protective custody) up allowed, they should be thrown in general population where they can truly be judged by their peers.

 

[pawprint2]

As I predicted the idiots refuse to answer the simple questions (one of the easiest ways to spot an idiot) Why shouldn't all prisons be like the Big Max? Prisons shouldn't be full of tax funded "programs", gyms, ball fields, etc. but rather a place you don't want to go, and really do not want to return to. The often quoted 50% drug related crap, spills out of the mouths of the left wing bleeding hearts, a couple of minutes of research would set them straight, but even if they were set straight do you think they would ever man up? NO. "Cherry picking" who gets in a certain program, and who does not, can guarantee a higher than normal "success rate". If one thing actually worked to keep criminals from continuing down the path of crime when they were released, it would work applied across the board, anything else is fudging the results. Making "little ones" out of "big ones" for all, would be closer to my idea of "equal justice for all". Some go to a Big Max, while others play b-ball-not exactly "equal". If all prison time was equally "a bad place to end up", we would have less crime. There are those idiots that think because we lock up criminals at a higher rate than other countries, something is wrong with US! Look at some of those "low prison/100,000 countries" Mexico, Turkey, etc., this indictment of our justice system is foolish to say the least, and does not stand up to any real reasoning. The stupidity that pours from "event horizon" , quote, "it is a FAR better use of funds and resources to target programs at those who are most likely to respond positively". Does not stand up to examination. Cherry picking by any other name is cherry picking, how many of these convicted criminals in the picked class would not have returned to a life of crime to start with, that is the figure that should be reported, all others are bull shit, some can not see it-maybe because their mother is getting some help in their state prison, who knows.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Paw, so are you agreeing with me, or arguing with me?

Everyone, did you catch the reporters name, in the Opening Post? Legitimate thread, or cloud of doubt?

 

[pawprint2]

Paw, so are you agreeing with me, or arguing with me?

Everyone, did you catch the reporters name, in the Opening Post? Legitimate thread, or cloud of doubt?

Your right on, the flamethrower was a good idea to be sure, I's shocked at the number of pamper the poor criminal types on this board, you sir should run for office!

 

[Unknown]

I worked in the criminal justice system for well over two decades. I dealt with everything from shoplifters to murderers. The vast majority of people coming through the system were first time, one time only offenders. Usually they did something stupid, often while under the influence of some intoxicant. Those guys usually wouldn't be bad neighbors.

The one, single variable that seemed to keep people from coming through the system again was education. It could be college, an apprenticeship, skill making pottery, true skill and experience painting houses, hanging sheetrock, being a mechanic, and so on. It does NOT include the guys who jump from painting to sheetrock, dealing dope, drive taxi, and otherwise NOT getting true true education in their field. there are all sorts of education.

I think the education gives them an "investment" in themselves, and society that others lack. I do not think society should be held hostage to things such as "give me an education or I will return to crime", "you owe me now that i am in prison" or any other nonsense. they should EARN the education, or they won't appreciate it..but the cost must be reasonable, and the education something they can use. teaching a 4 time burglar to be a locksmith is plain stupid.

convicts should earn their education, just like 99% of the people on this board did. educating people in prison is both cost effective, and helps manage the population there. The convicts can work 4-6 hours per day in the morning, and their labor would pay for schooling in the afternoon. I think that is much smarter than letting the cons lift weights all day, and get released with 50 pounds more muscle, and no useful skill, or education..

 

[Maser]

I think a mark to the head from a .45 would have been more suitable for that creature.

 

[Maggot]

I worked in the criminal justice system for well over two decades. I dealt with everything from shoplifters to murderers. The vast majority of people coming through the system were first time, one time only offenders. Usually they did something stupid, often while under the influence of some intoxicant. Those guys usually wouldn't be bad neighbors.

The one, single variable that seemed to keep people from coming through the system again was education. It could be college, an apprenticeship, skill making pottery, true skill and experience painting houses, hanging sheetrock, being a mechanic, and so on. It does NOT include the guys who jump from painting to sheetrock, dealing dope, drive taxi, and otherwise NOT getting true true education in their field. there are all sorts of education.

I think the education gives them an "investment" in themselves, and society that others lack. I do not think society should be held hostage to things such as "give me an education or I will return to crime", "you owe me now that i am in prison" or any other nonsense. they should EARN the education, or they won't appreciate it..but the cost must be reasonable, and the education something they can use. teaching a 4 time burglar to be a locksmith is plain stupid.

convicts should earn their education, just like 99% of the people on this board did. educating people in prison is both cost effective, and helps manage the population there. The convicts can work 4-6 hours per day in the morning, and their labor would pay for schooling in the afternoon. I think that is much smarter than letting the cons lift weights all day, and get released with 50 pounds more muscle, and no useful skill, or education..

From experience^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Maggot]

Somehow this just seemed appropriate here.....







Don Castner, wearing his "jail sucks!" T-shirt (Manatee sheriff's office)Don Castner was already in danger of arousing the suspicions of the fashion police. But the 39-year-old Floridian got a taste of delicious irony when he was arrested Wednesday by the actual police while wearing a T-shirt that read, “jail sucks!”

The Smoking Gun reports that Castner was arrested on charges of welfare fraud as part of a Manatee County sheriff's office undercover sting entitled Operation Meal Ticket.

Manatee deputies arrested 40 other people Wednesday and have warrants out for dozens more in the undercover sting operation.

Castner is accused of selling Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) cards to undercover agents.

Manatee Sheriff Brad Steube said some of the people caught in the sting said they were using money from selling the cards to buy "rock cocaine, drugs and alcohol."

After he was booked, Castner was forced to ditch his ironic T-shirt for more traditional prison garb and a mug shot.

There is a feel-good angle to this story. WBTV reported that the sheriff’s office used $9,000 in recovered food stamp money to buy baby formula for the Manatee County food bank.

 

[pawprint2]

I worked in the criminal justice system for well over two decades. I dealt with everything from shoplifters to murderers. The vast majority of people coming through the system were first time, one time only offenders. Usually they did something stupid, often while under the influence of some intoxicant. Those guys usually wouldn't be bad neighbors.

The one, single variable that seemed to keep people from coming through the system again was education. It could be college, an apprenticeship, skill making pottery, true skill and experience painting houses, hanging sheetrock, being a mechanic, and so on. It does NOT include the guys who jump from painting to sheetrock, dealing dope, drive taxi, and otherwise NOT getting true true education in their field. there are all sorts of education.

I think the education gives them an "investment" in themselves, and society that others lack. I do not think society should be held hostage to things such as "give me an education or I will return to crime", "you owe me now that i am in prison" or any other nonsense. they should EARN the education, or they won't appreciate it..but the cost must be reasonable, and the education something they can use. teaching a 4 time burglar to be a locksmith is plain stupid.

convicts should earn their education, just like 99% of the people on this board did. educating people in prison is both cost effective, and helps manage the population there. The convicts can work 4-6 hours per day in the morning, and their labor would pay for schooling in the afternoon. I think that is much smarter than letting the cons lift weights all day, and get released with 50 pounds more muscle, and no useful skill, or education..

Interesting post, to say the least! Unknown, are you saying that in your state those receiving free college are required to work 4-6hours a day, or is that what you'd like to see? Would you do away with Big Max Prisons? What if a guy walked into a govt. office and said, "I have not committed any crimes, but I am going to start, unless I get a full scholarship to a state Univ.?", wouldn't it be more cost effective to just give him a full scholarship now, rather than the cost of a trial, the cost to those he wronged, and the cost to the state? In Memphis, we had (may still have) a program that allowed convicted felons to become police officers (they had to be honest for x amount of years after their conviction), would you be in favor of allowing those that get a college degree while in prison to be considered for hiring as police officers (provided they passed the other requirements) as they have changed their lives so much? I would also like to point out, unlike where you worked, not every state puts people in prison for their first shoplifting offence, for "lesser" crimes, such as shop lifting, I am in favor of a short term in county jail, not prison (first offence). The biggest problem I have with the free college education (even if they work 4-6 hours/day to help off set the cost) is that none of our "professionals" (those that run the prisons etc) seem to think about the victims of the criminals crimes. For me I believe if there is work for $$$ involved, first the victim(s) should be compensated for any monetary loss, after that is satisfied, the state should be compensated for its monetary loss (cost of police investigation, jail, trial, prison), this would teach the criminals a lesson in responsibility, an education if you will, that would have benefits to society, measured in $$$. Oh how crooked some have become, when the victims of crime are no longer important-but the criminal is. I would like to see Big Max Prisons as a deterrent, if $$$ are earned by an inmate those funds should be used to help the victim of their crime. Under the current system the victim is forgotten.

 

[Unknown]

Interesting post, to say the least! Unknown, are you saying that in your state those receiving free college are required to work 4-6hours a day, or is that what you'd like to see?
A:It is what I would like to see.

Would you do away with Big Max Prisons? A: No.

What if a guy walked into a govt. office and said, "I have not committed any crimes, but I am going to start, unless I get a full scholarship to a state Univ.?", wouldn't it be more cost effective to just give him a full scholarship now, rather than the cost of a trial, the cost to those he wronged, and the cost to the state?
A: Perhaps, but there are still too many unaccounted for variables for me to decide, based in the information in your question. I so not think it would be wise for a state to set itself up to yield to any threat. It would make more sense to prosecute the person for making a terrorist threat..then he could earn the education.

In Memphis, we had (may still have) a program that allowed convicted felons to become police officers (they had to be honest for x amount of years after their conviction), would you be in favor of allowing those that get a college degree while in prison to be considered for hiring as police officers (provided they passed the other requirements) as they have changed their lives so much?
A: Again, too many unaccounted variables..some being length of time crime free, nature of the initial offense, how many initial offenses and many more.

I would also like to point out, unlike where you worked, not every state puts people in prison for their first shoplifting offence, for "lesser" crimes, such as shop lifting, I am in favor of a short term in county jail, not prison (first offence).
A: I never stated that people were put in jail or prison,for shoplifting. I said I dealt with everything from shoplifters to murderers. For the record, I am unaware of anyone in the area where I worked going to jail for their first minor shoplifting offense.

The biggest problem I have with the free college education (even if they work 4-6 hours/day to help off set the cost) is that none of our "professionals" (those that run the prisons etc) seem to think about the victims of the criminals crimes. For me I believe if there is work for $$$ involved, first the victim(s) should be compensated for any monetary loss, after that is satisfied, the state should be compensated for its monetary loss (cost of police investigation, jail, trial, prison), this would teach the criminals a lesson in responsibility, an education if you will, that would have benefits to society, measured in $$$.
A: Making restitution to the victim is a standard condition of release on parole, or probation supervision where I worked. repayment for court appointed attorney, and other costs the criminal caused are also often added in. they even have to pay to remain on supervision, so the taxpayer does not foot the entire bill..

Oh how crooked some have become, when the victims of crime are no longer important-but the criminal is. I would like to see Big Max Prisons as a deterrent, if $$$ are earned by an inmate those funds should be used to help the victim of their crime. Under the current system the victim is forgotten.

A: Not where I worked. The victim even gets to testify against release if the wish. However, that probably does happen in some places. If that is the case, either the voters don't give a damn about it, or the legislators are not listening (no surprise there though)

 

[pawprint2]

Unknown, thank you for your insight, and thank God someone other than I does not want to do away with Big Max Prisons, we need more not less that is for sure.
I'm not clear on a couple of your points. Are you saying the victims of the criminals come first in your state, i.e. if they earn any money it is paid to the victims PRIOR to any free college? Is the state being paid back for the cost of police/investigation/jail/trial/prison/cost of state college? When a criminal is caught and tried, all of us Tax Payers are victims, as we had to come out of pocket for the cost, I'm glad to hear your state is requiring the victims to be paid back in full, may I ask what state your in? I realize no one can ever be "paid back" in dollars for fear/suffering/loss of life/limb etc., but in the case of theft, and damage to property, etc., where a real value can be placed, what is the percentage of the victims in your state that have been paid in full? And of all the free college degrees "earned" in prison, how many of those criminals have paid back the state for ALL the costs to the tax payers in full? Your state may just be the model for the entire nation! Far too many criminals in my state of
Tennessee, and many others commit numerous crimes, lets say breaking into homes stealing and destroying things of value, and lives(fear and suffering especially the elderly), yet when caught they plea bargain down to one burglary, the other burglaries never get prosecuted!! In a sense, the scum bag was let off by the state from a large number of crimes, those victims, real people are just screwed-no reimbursement, nothing, as if it didn't happen. Some real professionals have written many articles regarding burglary, it looks like the number of burglaries committed by one (or one team) of low life scum bags ranges between 10-17 prior to being caught (and remember these are the ones that get caught). This doesn't mean they are charged with that number, usually just one, but all evidence points to these numbers. This means between 9-16 on average, burglaries are not "solved" even though the scum bag is in custody! No big deal, unless YOU ARE the victim! I imagine with all this money being paid back to your state and victims, the cost of prisons in your state are among the lowest/inmate in the country, along with insurance rates being near the bottom! Congratulations. Can you point me to a reference on how much has been paid pack-over how long etc.? I will bring it to the attention of my State Senator-we need to do the same here! But, I need the references, as just saying it-don't make it so, my Senator would think me a fool for bringing something like this up, if I couldn't back it up with the numbers. After all your years working there, I'm sure you'll be able to post a few references off the top of your head, thanks in advance.

 

[Unknown]

I'm not clear on a couple of your points. Are you saying the victims of the criminals come first in your state, i.e. if they earn any money it is paid to the victims PRIOR to any free college? Is the state being paid back for the cost of police/investigation/jail/trial/prison/cost of state college?
A: No, I am NOT saying victims come first, although I believe that they should. I often felt that the parole board, and courts were more concerned with looking good for the public, than actually holding criminals accountable. But remember, I was in a line staff position, and not an administrator. The court, or parole board sets how much gets paid to whom, and can also set who gets paid first. It can vary from case to case. Usually, offenders are ordered to pay restitution, and court appointed attorney's fees. However, both agencies have to keep in mind that the criminal needs to have enough money to live on. This often results in parole, or probation expiring before the full amount is paid. The criminal can ask to have the repayment schedule go back before the releasing agency if they believe it has been set severly high. As our society does not allow debtors prisons, the criminal's supervision cannot be revoked if they pay what the releasing agency determines is appropriate. This often results in large amounts of the debt not being collected. They will seek to extend supervision as long as possible in order to keep getting payments, but eventually, time runs out. Payment in full is seldom achieved.

may I ask what state your in?
A: I would rather not say..I moved out of the state where I worked when I left that line of work. It is really nice just being a member of the population at large, and not having to look over my shoulder quite so much.

what is the percentage of the victims in your state that have been paid in full?
A: Very few.

And of all the free college degrees "earned" in prison, how many of those criminals have paid back the state for ALL the costs to the tax payers in full?
A:With the costs of prosecution, and incarceration, I doubt that any of them could ever pay back what it cost to warehouse them, even IF they never took up the state's offer for education...whether they pay for that education out of their meager earnings while in prison, or the free classes some are able to find. I really doubt that there are ever any truly "free" degrees.

I imagine with all this money being paid back to your state and victims, the cost of prisons in your state are among the lowest/inmate in the country, along with insurance rates being near the bottom! Congratulations.
A: The state tries to collect what they can, but I imagine it is a pittance compared to the true cost of the crime, and prosecution, and incarceration. Frankly, it would surprise me to learn that the state recovers 50% of the restitution that is owed to victims. As for the costs of incarceration, or supervision, I would be surprised if the state recovered 25% of the actual costs. I doubt those paltry amounts effect insurance rates much, if at all.

Can you point me to a reference on how much has been paid pack-over how long etc.?
A: I would refer you to any of the state department of corrections websites. Then you would have to do some kind of search, or call the state you are interested in and ask them about the amounts ordered VS the amounts actually recovered. Like me, I think the answer will both surprise, and disappoint you.

Please keep in mind that I left that employment over 10 years ago. Much may have changed since then, but I rather suspect that based on how things stayed mostly the same while I was there (about 25 years) there really hasn't been much change.

All the public agencies from police, district attorneys, and corrections agencies, are subject to budgetary restraints, and political pressure. They often cherry pick cases to make news, design programs that where they can assure the success of that program so they can then hold that up for the public to hear about. Plea negotations are sadly part of that process. Just as good time is for convicts. The DA knows that they COULD prosecute all the cases, but would likely still end up only getting X years in prison for the convict. By working a plea deal, they end up with a conviction using only 10% of the resources that would otherwise have been expended and still put the criminal in jail for X-10% of the time. So it helps their bottom line.

In the long run, the tax payers have control over all this stuff. Although taxpayers want to "talk tough", when they are asked to give a 20% increase in their taxes to pay for more incarceration, or prosecution, they balk. If the agencies had all the money they wanted, they could lock up everyone they wanted, but that isn't reality.

The citizens that want meaningful change have to go to their legislature and make enough noise to get mandatory sentences, then vote to increase their taxes enough to pay to lock up all the people that get sentenced. The police can catch 'em, the district attorney's can convict 'em, and corrections can keep 'em all locked up IF voters decide to pay for it. If the voters won't pay for it, then all the agencies just limp along doing the best they can with limited resources.

That is the situation we are in now. All the agencies try to get success where they can by hand selecting people for programs because their research shows that those people have a 99% chance of success. I guess I can't blame 'em for that though.

In nearly 25 years, I got dismayed with most treatment programs. Domestic violence programs actually do seem to work pretty well. As for substance abuse, it doesn't matter whether it is alcohol or drugs...the mechanism is the same.

The one program where I NEVER had anyone fail while they stayed in it, was the Oxford house program. It is a substance abuse program for either alcohol or drugs. Residents live there, and as long as one of the people I was working with stayed in the Oxford house, they NEVER failed. Try and compare that to our shooting. If you were able to say while doing "X" you NEVER missed, that would be damned impressive. Oxford house has addicts living with addicts who help them out. The new guys can't get a damned thing over on the guys they live with, because all the other residents used the same lies, and manipulations themselves. It is beautiful. It would be sort of like trying to convince David Tubb, and Carl Bernosky you know more about why someone was having trouble with marksmanship than they do...good luck with that.

I found that there are very, VERY few of the truly evil, black hearted individuals in our society. The vast majority just did something stupid, or inadvertently got caught up in substance abuse. Once they get straight, and learn how to support themselves legally (back to education for both things), they get better.

Very few of these guys truly enjoy getting busted, loosing everything, and doing time. They just don't know what else to do because no one ever taught them differently. Education about substance abuse, work, and just about everything (even our shooting skill) seems to me to be the answer.

The more I learn, the better I shoot. It is probably the same for most of us here.

 

[WyldeDime]

If you can't be trusted to not hurt people, you should not be locked up. You should be gone. We should not spend money to build prisons, and to pay salaries for people to watch you. We should just take you out.

A lot fewer prisons, a lot less money spent warehousing human trash.

 

[pawprint2]

Unknown: Thank you for an honest post, many on this board do not understand the concept or practice of Cherry Picking, maybe your post will help educate them (but there are none so blind as those that will not see). My concern is of course, the cost to the Tax Payers, in some states, the cost of keeping a scumbag in prison is twice as high as in another, not due to the "cost of living" in that state, but do to other factors. Far too many none tax payers vote (but that is another subject), and far too many Tax Payers haven't paid a lot of attention to the cost of things like keeping scum bags in prison, the economy was good, they had not been the victim of a crime, and taxes hadn't been hiked, their homes continued to go up price, and things were over all good. Five years ago, when the economy really started to go to shit, and housing took a nose dive, large numbers of people started to find themselves unemployed etc. they started looking a the cost of govt., maybe for the first times in their lives ( I mean a serious look). The cost of a Higher Education (state schools) were suddenly out of the reach of a lot of students, even with student loans etc., or as in so many cases, still doable but not the school of their choice, and a much harder time for parents to help get their kids educated. It really "pisses off" a lot of Tax Payers, when the state can find funds for free college degree programs for scumbags, but raise the tuition on honest people trying to help get their kids through school. In those very liberal states CA for example, entire cities are going bankrupt, they've raised taxes to the point no one is left to pay them, they continue to pay their city employees salaries that are way out of line (high), the state is about to follow suit. Where do they make cuts? Is it in a plethora of "programs" for convicted criminals? Or, do they raise revenue with new taxes, higher tuition for honest people, and barrow more against their ability to tax? We all know the answers. I contend, the resources that have been give the police/DA/prisons, does not have to larger, just better spent. That is easy to say and hard to back up, unless you can demonstrate some facts. I will do so here: Cost of keeping one scum bag in prison/year in LA is half that of WA, the cost of keeping one scumbag in prison/year in New Mexico, is higher than in New York! As you can see, it has little to do with the cost of living, but rather how many bleeding heart liberal's are controlling the purse in a given state. ( I have no proof of this, but my money would be on the "a lot of cousins, sisters, brothers, and brothers-in-law(of various govt officials) have jobs associated with "special programs" in some of these high cost states). By reducing the cost of keeping scumbags in prison, we may be able to lower, or at least not raise tuition in state schools where the honest people are trying to better themselves. In some states the cost of prisons is virtually equal to the cost of education (amount spent by the state)!!!!!! Not in the great state of LA! I don't know what state you worked in, but in most states a prison guards need only a high school diploma (education wise). You indicated you didn't have a problem with convicted felons that got an education in prison (depending on their crime and time that has past sense their conviction) becoming police officers. Regarding education, I would start with a GED, in cell study books, give the test every quarter or so. Depending on their crime and time spent sense their time in prison, wouldn't it make better sense to hire these guys as prison guards, rather than police officers, as they have spent so much time there, they'd "know" the job in a hurry? I'd like to go on record and say to you, while I've never worked in law enforcement, I do not believe convicted felons should be made police officers/prison guard/school teachers/any job requiring a security clearance/be allowed to own a gun/be allowed to vote/etc. There are far tooooo many honest, hard working people that need those jobs, and did not forfeit their chances by committing crimes. But thanks again for your honest post, and clearing the air regarding Cherry Picking, I'm amazed at how few understand the concept or practice!! Your opinions are worth listening to, and are well presented. I have a different philosophy regarding the spending of public (tax) funds. I believe prisons should be nothing more than the bare bones essentials (not torture), and nothing more. As an American I believe in equal justice for all, not some go to an easy prison, while others go to a "hard" prison, but equal justice-I'd make them all equally as hard, at the least cost to the tax payer as possible. In these hard economic times, the money that is saved, would be used to reduce the tax burden on those paying taxes, most people know how to spend the money they've earned better than Any politician, let working people keep more of their own money. Thanks for the exchange of idea and information, you haven't changed my mind at all, but you have presented you ideas with dignity, God Bless you.

 

[Unknown]

My goal wasn't to change anyone's mind, just exchange ideas. Few people realize that communication goes through so many filters that it usually just ends reinforcing previously held ideas. the best liberal propaganda makes liberals say "right on, that is why i am a liberal, while the same message heard by a conservative makes the conservative say "Holy crap! No wonder I am a conservative...just listen to that nonsense!"

I think that there is too much awareness of nepotism for it to be as big of an influence as many people imagine. those in power are too frightened of getting caught to risk giving some idiot cousin a job. they will tell him how to fill out the job application though..same as I do for my friends.

I am VERY leery of allowing most people with felonies in positions such as police work. However, there are RARE exceptions I would consider. If there was an 18 year old who committed a felony that is later expunged, then he serves honorably in the military for 6 years, returns to civilian life, and at age 30 or 35, with not even a major traffic citation since he was 18. I would hope that at some point our society would give someone like that a second chance. I guess I continue to think "There but for the grace of God go I". In any event, cases I would consider are extremely rare, and they should be.

I always tried to keep in mind how I would want my son, brother, friend, myself, or the guy who saved my life treated, and treat others that way. I would also like to think that someone would give them a second chance IF THEY EARNED IT, not simply because everyone "deserves" to get breaks.

I say that because chances are very high that for every burglary,theft, or other crime someone gets caught for, they got away with a bunch of others...so they already used their second chance.

anyhow, I do not want to wreck this thread so I will go away...

thanks for a civilized exchange of ideas. Lots of people do not seem able to do that.

 

[Downzero]

If you can't be trusted to not hurt people, you should not be locked up. You should be gone. We should not spend money to build prisons, and to pay salaries for people to watch you. We should just take you out.

A lot fewer prisons, a lot less money spent warehousing human trash.

Two problems with that:
1. it is unconstitutional to use the death penalty in anything other than murder cases
2. it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life, because of the increased process necessary and the right to counsel extending into the appellate process.

In other words, if you really cared about the economics, the conclusion would go the other direction--you would favor eliminating the death penalty because it's a waste of money.

That's not to say that this is my position, as I'm somewhat undecided about the whole thing. But as a matter of economics, one cannot justify the use of the death penalty.

I'm also not aware of any demonstrable deterrence that comes from spending all this money, either.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

I still say my idea's better. Who's with me?

 

[pawprint2]

Two problems with that:
1. it is unconstitutional to use the death penalty in anything other than murder cases
2. it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life, because of the increased process necessary and the right to counsel extending into the appellate process.

In other words, if you really cared about the economics, the conclusion would go the other direction--you would favor eliminating the death penalty because it's a waste of money.

That's not to say that this is my position, as I'm somewhat undecided about the whole thing. But as a matter of economics, one cannot justify the use of the death penalty.

I'm also not aware of any demonstrable deterrence that comes from spending all this money, either.

WHAT PART of the Constitution says, the death penalty may not be used for anything but murder? A little help here, I can't find it anywhere.
The U.S. is a party to several agreements (see FM 27-10) agreeing to the death penalty for various un uniformed combatants captured on the battle field-is that too, un-Constitutional? Does that make the entire agreement void?

 

[Unknown]

I agree with downzero's #2 statement that death penalty is more costly than life in prison.......however, IF there was (I know..if wishes were dollars) an expedited appeal process, that could be changed. That pesky constitution allows people the right to appeal. While I wish there were an expedited appeal process, we need to have one so we can avoid executing innocent people.

I believe that the sole justification for a death sentence is that society DOES have the right to exact retribution. I do not believe it saves money, nor do I believe it deters crime. I am still in favor of it though.

I have tremendous difficulty balancing what I believe is societies right to retribution with the possibility that even a single innocent man could possibly be executed. Unfortunately, I am fairly sure it has happened..that alone could get me to turn away from capitol punishment.

 

[260shooter]

Prison should not be a fun place that criminals aren't afraid of going to. While I don't proclaim to have the answers I do have an opinion on the child molesters and sex offenders. There shouldn't be any PC'ing (protective custody) up allowed, they should be thrown in general population where they can truly be judged by their peers.

As the laws are now, if there is retaliation, it's considered a hate crime.
Prisons are to easy. Most of those that go to classes, go to kick it with their homeys, traffick contraband, soak up some air conditioning or eye fuck the female staff.

Most inmates have no intention of changing their ways once they are out, their for the most part uneducated (3rd grade level) but are street smart, well adapted to living in their own hood. It would be too hard, too challanging to get the hell away from the old neighborhood and old friends (partly because of parole must be served in the same place the crime was commited) who probably helped get them locked up in the first place.

If you want smaller prison popullations, think chemical castration for those in on their 2nd bit. It would amaze most people to know how many brothers, uncles, cousins and babys daddys are serving time in the same state, prison, cell house, or wing. It's rediculoius. Or the times inmates say they have 6 babys mommas and 10 kids. And guess what, all those babys mommas draw SSI money on those kids while the babys daddy is locked up. As they are coming up on parole or discharge they are instructed where to go and how to sign up for every financial program (and theres an ass load of them) you can think of!

Rant off.

 

[Strykervet]

They should have put it on backwards, then taught the fucktard to read (I'm sure prison comes with school amenities). That way, everytime he looks in the mirror, he'll understand what it says.

Oh, and I'm fairly certain "Katie's Revenge" wasn't JUST the tattoo...

Were it my kid or my family's kids and I was in prison with him, I'd have grafted his dick on his forehead. Now THAT would have something to talk about!

 

[Unknown]

although I won't openly condone violence against prisoners, I won't loose any sleep over rapists, pedophiles, and other violent felons getting a taste of what they "do unto others".