I gave up trying to find H4350 and bought 8lb of Vihta N150 powder for my TRG 22 .260 Rem. I was running the gold standard 43.5 gr of H4350. Anybody have the magic number for N150?
- Thread starter Graywolf.260
- Start date
Doesn't matter the magic number as N150 is very temp sensitive and you'll be chasing loads if the temp varies in your area. You'll have to experiment for your area at your current temp.
That would suck since I often shoot and hunt in the mountains.
I read a number of comments in different places saying N100 series were very temp stable, but I have no experience with it.
The 500 series is a lot more temp stable but there's another issue and that is once you open the powder it starts to oxidize so unless you'll be reloading all the time you may not get consistency throughout the same can
The "temp" sensitive characteristic of Vihtavuori Oy powders is exaggerated, Lapua ammo is loaded with V-powders, including their 22LRs, N-150 is very clean burning, and delivers published velocity without any problems, as with any powder that's new to you, I'd start low and work up, however; having an Artic load and a tropic load (cold wx and hot wx load) isn't unusual for any military ammo, anywhere in the world. And is a good idea regardless of they type of powder you're using. That good old Lapua ammo, while expensive, has been held in high regard by real experts around the world for a while. Don't be afraid of trying N-150-it's a great powder.
Pawprint,
You're treading on thin ice with your veiled insults.
First, my experience with VV powders is based on REAL WORLD experience. Perhaps we can ask George about fixing an extraction pin that busted in my rifle due to a load that became very hot when the air temperature became very hot. Second, No one said that N-150 is crap. It's a great powder as is all the VV powders but the 100 series is temperature sensitive.
Next, what military has a "Arctic load and a tropic load"? Temperature stable powders prevent that necessity.
Next, the powder Lapua puts in their ammo is the 500 series which is not temp sensitive and doesn't have the affects of the oxidation that we as single reloaders deal with. They load en masse so it's thrown, sealed with a bullet and voila! done.
Finally, the "real experts" that use VV powders in serious competition, espeically what we do, is few and far between. Besides, I would venture to say that anyone who puts a few thousand rounds down range a year can qualify as a "real expert". I doubt you're one of them.
You're treading on thin ice with your veiled insults.
First, my experience with VV powders is based on REAL WORLD experience. Perhaps we can ask George about fixing an extraction pin that busted in my rifle due to a load that became very hot when the air temperature became very hot. Second, No one said that N-150 is crap. It's a great powder as is all the VV powders but the 100 series is temperature sensitive.
Next, what military has a "Arctic load and a tropic load"? Temperature stable powders prevent that necessity.
Next, the powder Lapua puts in their ammo is the 500 series which is not temp sensitive and doesn't have the affects of the oxidation that we as single reloaders deal with. They load en masse so it's thrown, sealed with a bullet and voila! done.
Finally, the "real experts" that use VV powders in serious competition, espeically what we do, is few and far between. Besides, I would venture to say that anyone who puts a few thousand rounds down range a year can qualify as a "real expert". I doubt you're one of them.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Mike, Can you touch more on this oxidation theory? I use 500 series exclusively and haven't noticed any difference, but barely does a pound sit for more than one month.
Many military loads from around the world use Tropic loads, for example many of the german surplus rounds with a "purple" sealer were sub-gun 9mm cold weather rounds, as they were issued to the troops, I was just looking at TM E9-369A, even the Nazi 88mm were found in two loads:
Figure 73 — German 88-mm Cartridge Cases — Base End Views
b. Identification.
(1) GENERAL. The following identification markings may be found on projectiles. These markings may vary, dependent upon the particular lots found in the field. German abbreviations and terminology, and their English equivalents are given in paragraph 72.
(2) ON THE PROJECTILE. Armor-piercing projectiles are painted black above the rotating bands; high-explosive projectiles are painted yellow. In addition, the following markings may be present:
(a) Weight-zone Marking (Gewichtsklasse). The weight-zone marking is a roman numeral in black. The numeral "III" generally indicates "standard" weight; no weight corrections in the firing tables are necessary in firing shells which are in weight-zone III.
(b) Shell Number. In the case of 88-mm shell, the number 28.
(c) Date of assembly and manufacturer's initials or symbol.
(d) A number indicating type of high-explosive filler, for example: "1" indicates TNT; "2" indicates picric acid. Other number designations will be found in paragraph 72.
(e) Abbreviations denoting type of shell, for example:
1. Tp (Tropen), for the tropics.
2. Ub (Ubung), practice.
3. Nb (Nebel), smoke.
(3) ON THE SIDE OF THE CARTRIDGE CASE. Markings on the side wall of the cartridge case are shown in figure 72. Their English equivalents are given in Table II.
(4) ON THE BASE OF THE CARTRIDGE CASE. The principle marking for identification on the base of the cartridge case is the number "6347," which appears on all the cartridge cases of the German 88-mm complete rounds. For other markings, see figure 73. It will be noted that the primer design marking is "C/12nA St." The caliber and model of the gun may also appear on the base, for example, "8.8 cm. Flak. 18."
Finding ammo from around the world that is loaded for use in extreme weather (hot or cold) is at least 60 years old.
Regarding Lapua using 500 series powder in their loaded ammo, I'm sure you are correct, however; Lapua has been in the ammo business a long time, longer than Vihtavuori has been producing 500 series (High Energy Powders), it has been rumored that Federal has used quit a bit of Vihtavuori powder in the past, don't know about now.
By real experts on powder I wasn't referencing those that shoot it for sport, but rather those that toil over such things as pressure guns/ and transducers all day, actually measuring the full pressure curve of a given powder lots firing characteristics, IAW various standards, beit C.I.P., or SAAMI, or the spec military standard- reproducible results- reproducible in/by any ballistic lab in the world. These real experts I'm referencing can tell you the molecular break down of the various powders and how they will/do react to various additives such as-de-coppering agent-flash reduction agents etc. They are responsible for quality standards/ and usually involved in the development of new products, or custom products. As I'm sure you know Vihtavuori produces many powders for small arms that are not readily available in the U.S. market, A good example would be N331. Almost identical to N330, however a real chemical/smokeless powder expert was able to make some small changes to N330 specifically for the military's 9mm. We run into the same thing here in the U.S., often "pulled powder" is not quite the same as XXXXX, but so close you can use XXXX for your loading data, but it was designed for a given bullet and load from a given weapon, and not for the hobbyist.
Finally, the use of VV powder in tactical competition may be rarer than in many other disciplines, however; Benchrest shooters for many years have embraced VV powders, and it is not unusual to find VV is being loaded by some of the top shooters. I can't speak to other disciplines as seldom do competitors list there loads as they do in benchrest. It should also be pointed out, many of our European friends shoot VV powders (and VV primers-tooooo bad we an get them here unless we buy preloaded Lapua).
Regarding your broken extraction pin, why would anyone doubt you?
If you are in fact a real smokeless powder expert, I apologize, I never meant in any way to slight your expertise. Again, when I'm talking about smokeless powder for small arms experts- I am referring to those in the development and testing labs, I should have been more clear- I can see why you would be upset, as you shoot several thousand rounds a year!
pawprint,
I responded to this via my phone earlier but I can see for whatever reason it didn't come through so I will respond here again.
VV is excellent powder and that has never been a question. But where it lacks a real following in our style of matches is that the 100 series has a known temp variation. No one wants to have to deal with temp issues and Murphy's law will step up and you'll either have a very hot day in February or a cold day in May and at best case scenario your dope is off and worse you're unable to shoot at all.
For the 500 series and their oxidation propensity it stems for the fact that when the powder is first opened, the outer base (for lack of a better term) starts to react with the air and starts to erode slightly. If you're not leaving it sit for a while or not keeping the large tubs around it's not an issue, but it's there. Unfortunately not everyone reloads all the time and if they try and purchase the powder in bulk and it takes them a year to burn through a 8lb jug they're definitely going to see velocity consistency changes.
I'm not sure that current armies use different modern loads for precision rifles. Artillery, I can understand as you're dealing in pounds of powder per load not grains. Sub guns? Perhaps they have a reason but we are dealing with precision rifles, not any of the others.
bench rest shooters have are, without a doubt, much more anal about their rifles/loads so they probably have temp loads to go at any time.
I think for an experiment I'm going to pick up a 8lb jug for my 6cm. I'll find a load for it and then load some with the same jug in December and we'll see happens.
I responded to this via my phone earlier but I can see for whatever reason it didn't come through so I will respond here again.
VV is excellent powder and that has never been a question. But where it lacks a real following in our style of matches is that the 100 series has a known temp variation. No one wants to have to deal with temp issues and Murphy's law will step up and you'll either have a very hot day in February or a cold day in May and at best case scenario your dope is off and worse you're unable to shoot at all.
For the 500 series and their oxidation propensity it stems for the fact that when the powder is first opened, the outer base (for lack of a better term) starts to react with the air and starts to erode slightly. If you're not leaving it sit for a while or not keeping the large tubs around it's not an issue, but it's there. Unfortunately not everyone reloads all the time and if they try and purchase the powder in bulk and it takes them a year to burn through a 8lb jug they're definitely going to see velocity consistency changes.
I'm not sure that current armies use different modern loads for precision rifles. Artillery, I can understand as you're dealing in pounds of powder per load not grains. Sub guns? Perhaps they have a reason but we are dealing with precision rifles, not any of the others.
bench rest shooters have are, without a doubt, much more anal about their rifles/loads so they probably have temp loads to go at any time.
I think for an experiment I'm going to pick up a 8lb jug for my 6cm. I'll find a load for it and then load some with the same jug in December and we'll see happens.
If you were shooting a 6PPC, I'd say without reservation get some N-133, can't go wrong, common powder among the winners in most BR matches. 6creedmoor, my guess would be N-160, and to be fair, load side by side with a well know less temp sensitive powder. If you were in Memphis, I have at least 100 lbs +- Vihtavuori powder, most of the burns rates, I'd make it available to you, and we could shoot it over my crono at the Memphis Sport Shooter Ass. (I've been a member there for over 12 years), make weekly visits to the range and our beautiful New Club House. To somewhat hijack the thought, the MSSA is one of the nicest, well equipped, shooting clubs in the South, give us a look on the WEB, if you like to shoot-it's the club, open from sun up to sun down, 7days a week, closed Xmas and T-giving, full time staff, to include grounds men. I don't count how many rounds I fire down range in a given year, but I do know all those bullets and powder are going somewhere! One last thought of Vihtavuori Oy powders, all the Lapua 22lr rounds are loaded withVV (3N37 is one of them) there has been a couple of records set with Dominator ammo over the years, in fact the winner isn't shooting Eley, he/she is most likely shooting Dominator, BTW the Wolf (Russia) plant was built (turn key operation) by Lapua, back when THE USSR had it's thumb kinda on Finland. Nonetheless I'd like to read about your result, speed and accuracy. I know many handloaders have a hot and cold weather load, especially those that hunt with their handloads. Most High Power shooters I know have different loads for different distances, that is the beauty of handloading it allows you tailor your load to your rifle and your Conditions (pressure alt, temp). PS, one of the things about so many Bench Rest shooters, they load on the spot! They load for the conditons that exist right then and right now-that's too much for me, but God Bless those that do, as we can always learn something from those spending the thousands of hours experimenting as the Bench Rest folks have for so many years.
I'm researching a VV powder/load as we speak.
Milo2.
the glycerin begins to dry out in the powder once exposed to air. The dryer it gets, down goes velocity. Open in January and run 2750. Reload from same jug in May and get 2715. Reload again in October and get 2680.. My experience is same as mikes, but he's uglier than me.
. Also have both hunting and shooting club with members and similar experiences. V-V won't sell some powders in 8# jugs because of this. Better to buy a case of 2# cans for more consistent results.
the glycerin begins to dry out in the powder once exposed to air. The dryer it gets, down goes velocity. Open in January and run 2750. Reload from same jug in May and get 2715. Reload again in October and get 2680.. My experience is same as mikes, but he's uglier than me.
. Also have both hunting and shooting club with members and similar experiences. V-V won't sell some powders in 8# jugs because of this. Better to buy a case of 2# cans for more consistent results. Milo2.
the glycerin begins to dry out in the powder once exposed to air. The dryer it gets, down goes velocity. Open in January and run 2750. Reload from same jug in May and get 2715. Reload again in October and get 2680.. My experience is same as mikes, but he's uglier than me.
Mr. Huskey is a man I respect as a man and shooter and has a VAST amount more experience than I. I will debate the uglier part though
