Need some advise guy's. I have a Kimber police tactical .308 26" barrel with 20 moa scope base mounted. The scope is a vortex 6.5 to 24 X 50mm FFP using Burris tactical rings (six screws each) to secure and two large nut's on the side to secure to the 20moa rail. I have loc tighted the screws (blue) on the rings and really tightened down the screws and bolt mount to the point that I am afraid that they will break or something will break. My question is what else can I do to secure this scope/ring assembly to prevent movement. The impact at 700 yards is ugly after firing 20 rds or so. I have had suggestions to double stick tape in the rings, also get screws that are nylok type (plastic in the threads) but really would like to hear from the hide what to do. Thanks in advance, Manny
- Thread starter Nikkisdad
- Start date
If the scope is slipping in your rings, give the Burris rings away to somebody you don't like, and buy some quality rings. Nightforce, Seekins or Badger rings are always GTG. Make sure you use a quality bases, and your action screws are torqued to the proper levels, and your stock actually properly fits your action.
Agree with above. Don't go cheap on the base and rings. No matter how good of a scope you have, it will never work if what it sits on is unreliable. Badger or American rifle company rings for me.
Are you able to maintain acceptable groups at 100, 200 yds?
I agree with the use of quality rings and bases, but a lot of variables can cause
unacceptable groups at 700yds..
If your scope or it's mounting system is suspect, then all groups at any given
range will suffer.
Please post more info..
I agree with the use of quality rings and bases, but a lot of variables can cause
unacceptable groups at 700yds..
If your scope or it's mounting system is suspect, then all groups at any given
range will suffer.
Please post more info..
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a set of Burris Extreme rings and they are holding perfectly fine on my aac-sd. I didn't have to tighten the crap out of them either. A little bit of low strength loctite and they were good to go. I have fired over 200rds since the install and haven't seen any issues. I put it in a soft case and toss in the bed of the truck every weekend and take it for a 1 mile ride down one of the bumpiest paths around here. I have dropped it, it's fallen over, shot in a lead sled a time or two.
To the OP, how are you groups at 100yds like ballistic1 said.
To the OP, how are you groups at 100yds like ballistic1 said.
First off get a good torque wrench. Putting locktite on the screws can actually hurt you because it will act as a lubricant and you can over tighten the screws. Make sure you push forward on the scope while tightening the rail screws to make sure the ring lugs engage the rail correctly. Over torquing the screws can be just as bad as them being too loose. I would suggest remounting everything with the correct torque and trying it again before anything else.
Have you lapped the rings? All too often the rings are making very little contact with the scope. The high end rings talked about in previous post are what you should have. And i dont care what anyone says i always lapp rings I dont like dents or marks in my high end optics. If good rings and lapping still fail and i dont think they will then you can always put a couple drops of loctite in the rings before putting the scope in them. Dont over look the ideas mentioned before about the stock and base.
What does "impact was ugly at 700 yards" mean? What does "really tightened down the screws" mean? Why are you putting 242 on your scope rings? That shouldn't be necessary? What scope base are you using? You have some decent quality equipment. Are you using match quality ammo? if not, yea, most groups at 700 yards are gonna be ugly. Have you confirmed your rifle is a sub MOA rifle at 100 yards with match ammo? Are you the first owner of the rifle? Here's my suggestion.
Take everything apart and isolate the problem one component at a time. Whatever you do...don't put tape in the rings, whoever told you that, stop listening to them!
Take everything apart and isolate the problem one component at a time. Whatever you do...don't put tape in the rings, whoever told you that, stop listening to them!
I am having similar issues. I have a special purpose Makulick 34mm 1-pcs mount for a sako 75 300 wm and I have been through 7 different kinds of ammo and weight and the best I could do was @ .9 with 3 shots. Most of the time the 3rd shot is 2-3" off. I can even get a decent "box" test yet.
I have put on a picatinny rail and waiting on rings. The scope is uso sn3 3.8-22x44, I am fairly certain that it isn't the scope. But to be certain I am going to attempt to recenter the erector and reset the knobs to factory standard.
Does anyone out there know the factory knob settings?
I have put on a picatinny rail and waiting on rings. The scope is uso sn3 3.8-22x44, I am fairly certain that it isn't the scope. But to be certain I am going to attempt to recenter the erector and reset the knobs to factory standard.
Does anyone out there know the factory knob settings?
The burris rings will work fine but must be lapped. They are far from round when new. Once you hit them with the lapp you will see for yourself. I have a set on a .338lapua and they hold just fine.
I also lapp highend rings and 1 piece mounts as well. It is all about taking the slop out of stacking tolerances between the action, base, rings. Even if you have the most accurate set of rings ever made they are still mounted on other pieces that are not perfectly precise. If you check your scope bases on a trued surface I bet you will find most are not perfectly flat/true. The argument that quality rings do not need lapping is flawed because it is not just about the rings.
Also there are 2 sets of torque specs for dry and wet fasteners. torque accordingly.
I also lapp highend rings and 1 piece mounts as well. It is all about taking the slop out of stacking tolerances between the action, base, rings. Even if you have the most accurate set of rings ever made they are still mounted on other pieces that are not perfectly precise. If you check your scope bases on a trued surface I bet you will find most are not perfectly flat/true. The argument that quality rings do not need lapping is flawed because it is not just about the rings.
Also there are 2 sets of torque specs for dry and wet fasteners. torque accordingly.
Dont count on a scope being accurate just because it is high end. They can fail too. When in doubt find someone with proven glass and mount it for a comparison test. I wasted a couple match trips out of state with "flyers" I was blaming on myself. Turned out to be the scope.
There are some videos on youtube that show resetting the erek knob for USO's
It looks like the rings need lapping?
The biggest problem is that finding a 34mm lapping bar is freakning ridiculously tough. I am going to have a machine shop make me one.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions and observations. The rifle will shoot one hole group at 100 yards with my hand loads (168 gr a-max, cci primer, 44.0 grains Varget) but as I stated after firing say 15 rds the group opens up at distance (700 yds) five shot's around two feet. I checked the screws and mounting nuts and they were lose, not overly lose but lose non the less. I have had these same type rings on other rifles without any problems. What is the torque spec for mounting the rings? I was thinking of getting 12 screws with plastic lock (nylock?) screws and also nylock nuts for the ring mount to the base. I do not know the brand name of the scope base would assume 9from Kimber) that is a quality base. How do I lap the rings, do I have to purchase a kit of some sort or? Please keep the suggestions coming I sure do appreciate it. Manny
Ignore all the sage advice you will get here, from people who joined fifteen minutes ago, about using tinfoil, duct tape, nylons and binder twine. Take your rings and your mounts... And pitch them in the trash. Call it a lesson learned about walking over dollars to pick up dimes. There should be no need to lap rings, or to Locktite them, or to torque them beyond 15 inch pounds, especially on a .308.
I have a set of lapping bars from Sinclair Intl, and they come with very good instructions. I think this is the first time that I've heard anything bad about Burris rings, although I don't own any of them. If everything else fails, I would try other rings. Lots of good advice here, someone will nail it down for you. Lightman
OP,
I concur with Graham. If you bases and rings can't connect the scope and rifle like they should, the money you have invested in those two systems is doing you no good. That is saying nothing about the loss in ammunition. Your post doesn't speak to any rough handling, so I assume that this is recoil induced movement. That should not be happening. I don't know about the type of torture other's rifles go through, but I can tell you about ours. I am a game warden out west and our rifles are an essential piece of our gear. Just riding in our trucks on the nasty roads that we have is enough to mess up your zero if your bases, rings or scope aren't up to the task. I replaced all of the bases, rings and scopes on our rifles due to similar issues. Not recoil, but rough conditions. Four year and running, we have not had one single issue with Badger bases, rings and SWFA scopes. Nightforce rings too for that matter. No locktite or lapping required on the rings. Torque to specs and you are good to go. Many here have lived the headaches of trying to save money. You'll spend more in the end. As for the SWFA scopes. They are not the most expensive, but they are quality systems. I don't have the budget for 10 officers to spend much more than I have for the SWFAs. I didn't want to scrimp on the bases and rings.
Good luck,
RB
I concur with Graham. If you bases and rings can't connect the scope and rifle like they should, the money you have invested in those two systems is doing you no good. That is saying nothing about the loss in ammunition. Your post doesn't speak to any rough handling, so I assume that this is recoil induced movement. That should not be happening. I don't know about the type of torture other's rifles go through, but I can tell you about ours. I am a game warden out west and our rifles are an essential piece of our gear. Just riding in our trucks on the nasty roads that we have is enough to mess up your zero if your bases, rings or scope aren't up to the task. I replaced all of the bases, rings and scopes on our rifles due to similar issues. Not recoil, but rough conditions. Four year and running, we have not had one single issue with Badger bases, rings and SWFA scopes. Nightforce rings too for that matter. No locktite or lapping required on the rings. Torque to specs and you are good to go. Many here have lived the headaches of trying to save money. You'll spend more in the end. As for the SWFA scopes. They are not the most expensive, but they are quality systems. I don't have the budget for 10 officers to spend much more than I have for the SWFAs. I didn't want to scrimp on the bases and rings.
Good luck,
RB
Pay attention to what Graham said above.
Some years back I dealt with a nagging shift (cold bore) with an HTR that traveled in the trunk, lots of miles and lots of temperature changes.
Finally tossed those rings (they were Burris Tac) and put on Badgers....problem solved.
Some years back I dealt with a nagging shift (cold bore) with an HTR that traveled in the trunk, lots of miles and lots of temperature changes.
Finally tossed those rings (they were Burris Tac) and put on Badgers....problem solved.
Some of the first things to check are do your rings have a space between the top and bottom, when they are set, or are they bottoming out. Sometimes they are bored a little to big and do not really tighten. The next thing is to check that you have clearance between your barrel and the stock forend. When you are shooting a number of rounds, your barrel will heat up and expand and if you do not have clearance and it contacts the forend, it will throw shots. I have never had anything from Burris that I liked and kept, but if the rings are set with a small gap on both sides, there should not be any movement. If there is, you should be able to see that the scope has moved in the rings.
I just received a 1913 Rail adapter for the sako 75 and it has a slight bow towards the recoil lug, the gap is about the height of a playing card. I asked the dealer for an exchange but I haven't head back yet.
Question#, can i make this rail (very slight bow) work if I bed it? The middle/front area is bowed downward, would bedding it pull the rear down to help flatten/straighten it out or will it always sag?
Maybe it's a easy way to get an extra 5 mill tilt !!!
Question#, can i make this rail (very slight bow) work if I bed it? The middle/front area is bowed downward, would bedding it pull the rear down to help flatten/straighten it out or will it always sag?
Maybe it's a easy way to get an extra 5 mill tilt !!!
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Hmmmm..... What does lapping have to do with your slippage problem? If the rings don't hold now then lapping them isn't going to help.
Besides, I would have sold you my Brownells kit for $25. It's brand new. I've had it for fifteen years and never needed to use it.
I use baseball pitchers rosin dust on my rings for extra grip
I also agree spend a good chunk on high quality rings and your gtg.
I also agree spend a good chunk on high quality rings and your gtg.
Not that I agree that they should be lapped but lapping would provide more surface area contacting between the scope and rings which should give a better hold. With that being said, I don't lap my rings but if one deems necessary then I don't see the harm in it.
I hope you are being sarcastic. Because pixie dust works as well.
He's got the rings cranked down as tight as they can be, and his solution is to remove more metal. What could possibly be wrong with that idea.
^^^^^^^^^^^ you got the correct answer in the FIRST REPLY then Graham hit it home...
Buy once cry once. Good mounts are invaluable. Trying to go around the ONLY sound advise is going to cost more time and money
He would rather spend his time and money chasing down solutions to the problems he himself has created. It is, after all, cheap fuel for our economy.
I don't think you fully understand what ring lapping does. It allows the rings and scope to have full contact with each other all the way around the scope tube. There are no low spots which would leave areas of no contact. Ring lapping is done to insure that the scope sits true in the rings and the way it does it is by making them seat flush together.
You can lead a horse to water...
The blind leading the blind.
Matthew 15:13-14, not Luke 6:39-40.
First of all, you don't want your rings to have full contact with each other; second, you don't want the rings to seat flush together; and third, only crappy rings that are out of spec, or a scope tube that is too thick at one ring and not the other, requires ring lapping.
Also, you didn't understand my last post. I didn't say the rings shouldn't have a gap between the top and bottom. I said the rings and scope tube should have full contact with each other. I see that you are quick to judge also. I wouldn't think a person taking quotes from the bible to be as judgmental.
Your rings should hold, without lapping. The screws for the caps should be torqued to 15-20in/lbs, crossbolt 40-65in/lbs. All six cap crews on each ring must be torqued incrementally and as evenly as possible. Threadlocker is your choice, you must degrease the threads before use or it won't work. Nylocs will not hold better than loc-tite. Do not put adhesives between the tube and rings. Make sure the ring cross-bolt is properly seated in the base lugs, make sure when everything is tight there is a gap between the ring halves and that it is visibly even, no need to obsess with a feeler gauge or anything. Mounting a scope is not complicated and a .308 does not require high dollar or extra heavy duty parts to do it, so long as the parts you have are in spec and undamamged. However if you've overtorqued your fasteners in those aluminum rings you may have damaged the threads so that recoil makes them slip, and you may have yielded the cross-bolt so that it doesn't really develop tension.
When your groups go South @ 700 have you come back to 100 before cranking screws to confirm its not you?
When your groups go South @ 700 have you come back to 100 before cranking screws to confirm its not you?
You are still missing the point. You could have the best .most accurate rings in the world and a matching scope. If the receiver and base machining and base machining are not 100% perfect then there will be a misalignment in the rings when attached. There are alot of crooked scope bases out there. Even from high end makers. Don't believe me? Put one upside down on a toolroom granite and look for light underneath each corner. I am not saying they are .050 out but they are not all straight even before mounting. Now without lapping the rings will pull against the scope trying to pull the base straight. Granted with quality products this should be a minimal amount and in most cases won't harm anything I still prefer my equipment to be assembled the best it can be.
Cheap extruded aluminum rings are never round and I would say lapping in a necesity if one wants to use them.
Cheap extruded aluminum rings are never round and I would say lapping in a necesity if one wants to use them.
I wasn't judging you as a person. I was, however, judging the quality of your information and the validity of your criticism.
As to people who quote from the Bible not being judgmental I refer you to the Crusades; the Inquisition; the Jesuits; the official Catholic Church in its entirety; the Baptists; the Wesleyans; the book of Revelations...........
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No need to refer me. They all were/are hypocrites. But, in Luke something, something, something 'judge not and you shall not be judged'. I don't know the verse/chapter but you get the picture. Just because many before have done it doesn't make it right. This is not one of those instances where majority rules.
Either way we aren't going to see eye to eye and I am going to stop messing up this members thread.
I have never had any problems with a good set of rings and bases and never used any Loctite or similar (my preference is badger all around)
sometimes there is a nut behind the scope that needs to be adjusted, that's usually my case
sometimes there is a nut behind the scope that needs to be adjusted, that's usually my case
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Update - received kit for lapping (wheeler) from Midway yesterday. Viewed the Cd for the procedure recommended. CD pretty good. Lined up the two gauges (pointed) they were pretty much dead on. Lapped the rings, took off approx. 70% did not want to take any more off for fear of taking to much metal off and not being able to tighten the rings enough. Torqued the side ring nut's to 65in lbs and the top to 20 in lbs. did not lock tight the screws until I have verified that all is OK after shooting and seeing if I still have the same problem as in original post. That is about all I can say for now and will update after firing/checking the rings and mounts.
Looks like you are set.
Just got back from the range - looks like all the advice to lap was/is right on the money. groups were right there as expected, all the screws and two side nuts all remained tight, verified two times with the torque wrench. Tonight I will remove one screw at a time and lock tight them in. I wish to thank all contributors for their advice...regards Manny
How far out did you go?
Be sure to use the lightest loctite (the red maybe?) Also, did you do anything different with the screws to the rings? Did you clean the previous loctite off really well? I'm wondering it your problem had to do with grease on the screws. I just got some badger rings that were covered in grease. I was then educated by others with more experience than me at the range [/read: was made fun of b/c my scope mounting job was all jacked up]. But that's how you learn. I also wonder if you had the rings tightened so much before, that the scope was having trouble operating correctly when you were dialing up the elevation. I've long since moved away from burris rings. I still have a couple of the PEPR mounts for my AR's, but those aren't for "precision". There's a lot to be said for quality rings. There's also a lot to be said for quality bases, and Kimber isn't an automatic guarantee that there wasn't/still isn't something wrong with the base.
FWIW, I'm considerably newer to this than the OP, but I'm repeating things that I've heard from guys doing this longer than both of us.
Be sure to use the lightest loctite (the red maybe?) Also, did you do anything different with the screws to the rings? Did you clean the previous loctite off really well? I'm wondering it your problem had to do with grease on the screws. I just got some badger rings that were covered in grease. I was then educated by others with more experience than me at the range [/read: was made fun of b/c my scope mounting job was all jacked up]. But that's how you learn. I also wonder if you had the rings tightened so much before, that the scope was having trouble operating correctly when you were dialing up the elevation. I've long since moved away from burris rings. I still have a couple of the PEPR mounts for my AR's, but those aren't for "precision". There's a lot to be said for quality rings. There's also a lot to be said for quality bases, and Kimber isn't an automatic guarantee that there wasn't/still isn't something wrong with the base.
FWIW, I'm considerably newer to this than the OP, but I'm repeating things that I've heard from guys doing this longer than both of us.
Yes, all the previous loctite was cleaned off, there was no grease anywhere on or in the rings. What I did lack was a torque wrench at the time and was guessing at the amount of force to tighten the rings and base nuts. I loctited the rings last night with the Loctite provided in the wheeler kit (sorta purple) in color. I will continue to monitor the security of the rings and report if (I hope not) any recurrence of the initial problem. Thanks everyone for your input....Manny
DO NOT use the red for this, unless you want it permanent until you add heat.
Use the blue one (242)
I stand corrected. Purple not red. I hope it works for you with the new set up. I hate to have to keep spending money to get things right.
Did your groups improve at both 100 and 700, or did you only run it at 100 for the initial test?
Did your groups improve at both 100 and 700, or did you only run it at 100 for the initial test?
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