6.5 Grendel AR. Looking to go with that round. Is it worth it?

[sandwarrior]

Some things to think about here on the 6.5G. It has superior long range ballistics due to bullets...not case capacity...over the 6.8. In the original configuration, the 6.5G and the 6.8 SPC were about as even/even as it could when it came to point blank shooting. Nothing the 6.5G had to offer was really better under 300 yds. than the 6.8. Where the 6.5G shone brightly was that, it being just short enough to handle a very high BC bullet loaded to the same length as a 6.8, could outdistance the 6.8 starting at around 300 yds. and beyond. In original configuration it was then, an easy choice for me. Even/even to 300yds. and 6.5 wins beyond. 6.5 even beat a .308 using 168's or 175's past 600 yds. A huge bonus.

Along comes the SPC II chamber for the 6.8. What basically happened here is whoever came up with this idea looked at several cartridge designs that utilized a form and given length of freebore felt that that was what was needed to improve the round. It did. In standard loads, velocity improved. It also allowed the case to be loaded hotter for any given load that the bullet didn't exceed the parameters of the freebore. Which is most all of them. The powder used can also be faster so as to give that quicker impulse and bring the bullet up to speed, taking advantage of the freebore. In this configuration the 6.8 SPC handily beats the 6.5G out to 300, and even stays comparable out to 500. The problem here is that no one is making a super high BC Light/medium weight bullet in .277 cal. The other problem which will never go away is the fact the 6.8 case can't handle a longer bullet (which is needed to gain BC) and still function in a -15 platform. It could be done quite easily in a bolt gun, but I'm assuming we aren't talking about them here, as we want mass feed, not single feed.

Of note here is that no one I know, makes a 6.5G with the same amount of freebore as the 6.8SPCII chamber. I have yet to convince any of several barrel makers to make their own chamber with this change to the 6.5G. You see, it's not about the best idea, it's about the best marketing.

So, with the parameters of the OP in mind, the choice is a clear 6.8 SPC II. Even though my favorite is the 6.5G, and I would personally choose a 6.5G. Because of the long range capability over the 6.8 SPC. It's just in this case where a majority of the shooting is going under 300 yds. the 6.8SPC II chamber is superior.

 

[346ci]

The problem here is that no one is making a super high BC Light/medium weight bullet in .277 cal. The other problem which will never go away is the fact the 6.8 case can't handle a longer bullet (which is needed to gain BC) and still function in a -15 platform.

GS Customs makes a few LR type bullets for the 6.8. I have some of the 105gr lathe turned solids but haven't worked up any loads yet. Then there is the cost, while those came from South Africa, GS now has a company here in the US. Once I get a chance to get back into reloading, I will get some more.

It all depends on what you want to do, 500yds target shooting, I'd put my 18" ARP/Pacnor 6.8 up against my 18" .264GARP any day. After that distance, I'd feel better with the .264 as I know it would be a better choice. I have 2, fixin' to be 3 6.8s setup for hunting so those are my go to for deer. So far they have got the job done very well.

 

[Unknown]

I guess if someone else supplied the ammo, the perfect solution would be to have one of each.

 

[sandwarrior]

GS Customs makes a few LR type bullets for the 6.8. I have some of the 105gr lathe turned solids but haven't worked up any loads yet. Then there is the cost, while those came from South Africa, GS now has a company here in the US. Once I get a chance to get back into reloading, I will get some more.

It all depends on what you want to do, 500yds target shooting, I'd put my 18" ARP/Pacnor 6.8 up against my 18" .264GARP any day. After that distance, I'd feel better with the .264 as I know it would be a better choice. I have 2, fixin' to be 3 6.8s setup for hunting so those are my go to for deer. So far they have got the job done very well.

For intents and purposes, I think you restated what I said. Or, at least meant to say. With the new 6.8 SPCII chamber and higher BC bullets, the 6.8 is showing a better hand when it comes to medium-long range. It still lacks however when it comes to shear "long" range.

Do you have any info on the .264 Garp? Specifically, amount of freebore. Freebore would benefit that cartridge immensely. Much more immensely than simply changing throat angles so that one can proprietize the 'new' round.

 

[bustin]

For intents and purposes, I think you restated what I said. Or, at least meant to say. With the new 6.8 SPCII chamber and higher BC bullets, the 6.8 is showing a better hand when it comes to medium-long range. It still lacks however when it comes to shear "long" range.

Do you have any info on the .264 Garp? Specifically, amount of freebore. Freebore would benefit that cartridge immensely. Much more immensely than simply changing throat angles so that one can proprietize the 'new' round.

.091 actual freebore with a 1.5 degree throat, It's .103 if you include the 45 degree cone from the outside of the case mouth to the .264 diameter freebore. I designed it for the 108 and 123 Lapua in 2007. Just lucked out that the 123 Amax and SST worked perfect with the same freebore when they came out. The chambers were originally the 6 and 6.5 Banshee but when Les Baer came out with his LBC chamber a few years ago it was very close to what I had done back then. It only made sense to change the name so others could relate the chambers.

 

[sandwarrior]

.091 actual freebore with a 1.5 degree throat, It's .103 if you include the 45 degree cone from the outside of the case mouth to the .264 diameter freebore. I designed it for the 108 and 123 Lapua in 2007. Just lucked out that the 123 Amax and SST worked perfect with the same freebore when they came out. The chambers were originally the 6 and 6.5 Banshee but when Les Baer came out with his LBC chamber a few years ago it was very close to what I had done back then. It only made sense to change the name so others could relate the chambers.

.091 is at least a start. I was thinking the 6.8 SPC II chamber has something like .200" total? A good comparison in this regard is the .223 and 5.56. The 5.56 has .120" longer freebore than the .223. As many know some accuracy is given up, but not much. For extreme accuracy, I would have to say this reduction wouldn't be acceptable. But, for hitting steel at long ranges the shooter would still be well within accuracy parameters.

 

[bustin]

.091 is at least a start. I was thinking the 6.8 SPC II chamber has something like .200" total? A good comparison in this regard is the .223 and 5.56. The 5.56 has .120" longer freebore than the .223. As many know some accuracy is given up, but not much. For extreme accuracy, I would have to say this reduction wouldn't be acceptable. But, for hitting steel at long ranges the shooter would still be well within accuracy parameters.

The 6.8 chambers we use in the barrels we make have .085 freebore +.015 cone for a total of .100. The SPC II chambers were .100 with a .005 cone to start. That sharp cone angle is what caused some of the problems by cutting copper rings from the bullet jackets. It seems like in the summer of 2010 they finally changed the cone angle in the SPCII to 45 degrees like the others so now it has a .100 freebore + .015 cone length. The case capacity to bore area ratio allows the 6.8 to use faster burning powders and in turn gets more velocity.

 

[346ci]

Do you have any info on the .264 Garp? Specifically, amount of freebore. Freebore would benefit that cartridge immensely. Much more immensely than simply changing throat angles so that one can proprietize the 'new' round.

Harrison(Bustin) covered it a hell of a lot better than I could as he spec-ed the barrel. After using a few of his other barrels in 6.8 and .223Wylde, I knew his .264 would be a sweet one. Along with the best bolt in the business, I could not turn it down. Just wish I had bought a few more for the store...

I have some nice 6.8 groups the 68Forums but here is the GARP with Hornady 123gr. These were shots #4, 5 and 6 out of the new barrel.

 

[LRRPF52]

I took my little 16" Grendel out to 1200yds this past weekend on a challenge by a bunch of FBI, DEA, and other Federal LEO's who were out shooting distance for fun near one of my long range playgrounds. With the Hornady factory 123gr A-MAX, I'm still supersonic out to 1350yds believe it or not at 4400ft ASL, in 81 F weather. It surprised me that I could make consecutive hits within MOA at that distance, because I never took the little carbine past 700yds before. My ballistics app gave me 14.4 Mils of elevation with those conditions, so I dialed it in and let her rip. There were some giddy on-lookers when I broke the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, & 5th shots right where they were expecting.

During my DM Course, a guy brought a really nice SPR with a select match Douglas pipe done by High Caliber Sales, which was a no-BS 1/2 MOA gun at 100yds. My Grendel barely hovers around 1 MOA with a simple button-rifled pipe. My hit probability against super-accurate guns spitting low BC bullets is drastically superior in the wind, simply due to BC.

I would take my little 16" Grendel against a select match 18" 6.8 or 5.56 any day of the week and spank it in the wind. If there is no wind, then the flatter trajectory of faster loads wins, at which point I can shoot the 100gr and be equally competitive, but I'm quite happy with the 123gr factory load going 2460fps.

If you want a cartridge that will do both what the 6.8 and Grendel are capable of, get the Grendel. That's the way I looked at this all along following the developments of both, having had my hands on 6.8 back in 2003 with peaked interest at the possibilities of higher-capacity cases in the AR15 that will still mag-feed.

 

[sandwarrior]

LRRPF52,

That was my reason as well for going with the Grendel. It goes well long or short. Accepting that even being beaten at short range in the velocity department doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It gets the bullet there fast enough and hard enough. And, when it comes to long range, keeps chugging them out there, fast enough and hard enough.

 

[LRRPF52]

LRRPF52,

That was my reason as well for going with the Grendel. It goes well long or short. Accepting that even being beaten at short range in the velocity department doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It gets the bullet there fast enough and hard enough. And, when it comes to long range, keeps chugging them out there, fast enough and hard enough.

The 6.8 might have 100-150fps on it at the muzzle, both from 16" barrels, but it usually has caught up by then. The 120gr 6.8 SST has a similar BC to the 100gr weight class of many 6.5mm pills, and a lot of 6.8 hunters like that bullet. It's one of the closest to Grendel performance from the 6.8 line-up, and sure beats paying for Nosler AB's. We're seeing impressive results with the 123gr SST as well in the Grendel, to include double shoulder through-and-through penetration on pigs, and lots of DRT's.

Your avatar is the heat BTW. I was in F Co, 52nd Infantry, Long-Range Surveillance, which was a LRRP unit back in the SEA Conflict before the Army re-named LRRPs LRS. Same mission, but an attempt to neuter us. We were deactivated in 1997 at Fort Lewis, WA.

 

[Regalkismet]

100-250 fps.... Can we keep things accurate.....

 

[sandwarrior]

The 6.8 might have 100-150fps on it at the muzzle, both from 16" barrels, but it usually has caught up by then. The 120gr 6.8 SST has a similar BC to the 100gr weight class of many 6.5mm pills, and a lot of 6.8 hunters like that bullet. It's one of the closest to Grendel performance from the 6.8 line-up, and sure beats paying for Nosler AB's. We're seeing impressive results with the 123gr SST as well in the Grendel, to include double shoulder through-and-through penetration on pigs, and lots of DRT's.

Your avatar is the heat BTW. I was in F Co, 52nd Infantry, Long-Range Surveillance, which was a LRRP unit back in the SEA Conflict before the Army re-named LRRPs LRS. Same mission, but an attempt to neuter us. We were deactivated in 1997 at Fort Lewis, WA.

Thanks on the avatar. ArmaHeavy found that for me one day. You probably did wear the "tiger stripe" cammies. There was talk of us getting issued them, then that faded out. I saw an issued, but quite serviceable set of the original blue-green ones sell for $2500.

I did do some testing with the 129 SST's in the Grendel, as well as the Nosler 125 Partitions ( I got 'em as seconds from the Nosler store a number of years ago...or there'd be no way I was paying that much to "test" their bullets in the Grendel) Most of what I did though was reaching as far as that round could with Lapua, SMK and A-Max 123's, and Norma 130 GT's. I also did a bunch of testing with the Lapua 108's and SMK 107's and 120's.

As much as I was thrilled to even hear of the 6.8 coming on in '03 and folks liking it, when I found the Grendel I knew it was what I was looking for. Nearly ten years later, both the 6.8 and 6.5 have a growing fan base. But, as far as where either should really go someplace, in the military, is a dead end from what I've heard.

 

[LRRPF52]

I only wore personally-owned Tigers when doing OPFOR if I could get away with it, which was more than a few times. We played OPFOR for 2/75 down in Panama at the Jungle Operations Training Center in late 1997, and I wore them the whole time except for when we did the training lanes that were part of JOTC. Years later when I was in the 82nd, I issued several sets of them out to an OPFOR detachment that I built from a lot of EM's in our company, and also equipped them with only foreign weapons from TASC. I've always liked Tigers. There are a ton of variations of the pattern, starting with the green versus dry seasons. I'm Cerakoting one of my retro project's furniture Tigerstripe, and trying to make it textured like material was attached to the outside.

Back to Grendel: The hunter and recreational target shooters, as well as competitors have benefited from the Grendel greatly. For where we live West of the Mississippi up in the Rockies, the Grendel seems purpose-built for us, since we have such open spaces in between mountain ranges and hills, with lots of wind. The 5.56 just doesn't cut the mustard when you reach out past 200yds, where it has dumped most of its energy already. I love 5.56, but it has clear limitations that I'm not going to ignore.

I always run my 6.5 Grendel to 6.8 SPC II ballistics comparisons using 16" Grendel vs. 16" 6.8, or 14.5" Grendel vs. 18" 6.8 to try to make it fair. I'm not really interested in within 200yd performance, because they both deliver more than enough within that range. Heck, even 5.56 packs significant punch within 200yds. What is important to me is what happens as the distance gets further, especially with wind deflection and retained energy. I can make the argument that a 77gr 5.56 going 2820fps from an 18" 5.56 will smoke the Grendel's 123gr trajectory from my 16", but the 5.56 will be peeing in the wind at 500-600yds with that load, whereas I will be making 1st-round hits with the Grendel there because of significantly less wind deflection.

SSA's Tactical Load Nosler 100gr AB is listed at 2650fps from a 16" barrel, with a .323 BC. A 100gr Nosler BT factory load will run easily at 2620fps from the 16" Grendel, and it has a .350 BC, but for medium game, I would prefer the 130gr Nosler Accubond in the Grendel if I felt a need for a premium bullet.

 

[Regalkismet]

Another Wilson Combat factory 6.8 load pushes the Hornady 110gr BTHP 2700 fps in a 16" barrel and it has a BC of. 360. When you talk about 6.5 factory ammo it would help if you gave which brand.

 

[LRRPF52]

Another Wilson Combat factory 6.8 load pushes the Hornady 110gr BTHP 2700 fps in a 16" barrel and it has a BC of. 360. When you talk about 6.5 factory ammo it would help if you gave which brand.

That's a target bullet with a very low BC. The Precision Firearms 6.5mm 108gr Scenar BTHP load with .465 BC will run 2620fps from a 16" Grendel. You just can't beat BC with speed unless you really crank the speed up to velocities that a case that size simply can't reach.

Alexander Arms has a good selection of hunting ammo, as does Precision Firearms, and Hornady. These are just the hunting loads off the top of my head:

Alexander Arms (all loaded in Lapua brass)
115gr Berger VLD
120gr TTSX
120gr Nosler BT
129gr Hornady SST
130gr Swift Scirocco

Precision Firearms (Lapua brass, sells in 50rd boxes):
123gr Hornady SST
120gr Nosler BT
130gr Nosler AB

Hornady (Hornady Brass):
123gr A-MAX (has been working amazingly well as a hunting bullet for some reason)
123gr SST

Wolf (PPU brass with LRP):
120gr MPT

There aren't as many offerings as there are for 6.8, but there are more than enough to cover medium and large game needs, with affordable to premium hunting bullets with a higher weight average and much higher BC average than there are for 6.8. To get down to a .360 BC, I have to go down to a 100gr flat base bullet in the 6.5, with a few exceptions.

That 2700fps 6.8 load would be music to my ears if it had a BC of .460 at 2700fps, but .360 puts me back into 5.56 territory. Where I live, there are significant winds to be dealt with, and any projectile that bucks them well is a really good thing for me. Within 200yds, I still have better wind deflection, but by inches, so bullet construction will determine the outcome, and both calibers have projectiles made by the same companies, there are just way more options for reloaders with the 6.5 in both bullets and brass, while the 6.8 has more dedicated .277 pills made for it because nobody would mess around with shooting medium game with bullets that weigh under 130gr as a general rule in the .270 Winchester. The market has done all it can to provide a series of 6.8-specific bullets that will fit in that case and the AR15, which is great for anyone owning a 6.8 SPC II as far as load selection goes for both factory and hand-loaders.

130gr is about where the practical limit of the AR Grendel usually tops out because of case capacity and mag length limitations for COL, but that's a lot of bullet for an AR15 frame anyway. I'm actually interested to see what the 6.8 SPC II would do with the 130gr Berger, since it has a higher BC than the 140gr Berger in .277. Right now, the Hornady 120gr 6.8 SST with a .400 BC seems like a great load for the chambering. If I was a 6.8 owner, I would be all over that for factory fodder.

Since I have the Grendel, I don' need to piddle around in low .4__ BC territory though, because there are plenty of hunting and target pills with .485 and up BC's, especially the 123gr stuff at .510 BC. That BC is not hype, as I even re-proved to myself this past weekend when I stretched the little carbine out to 1200yds and proceeded to hit what I aimed at as fast as I could index and break the shot. I honestly thought it would be dead long before that.