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And Now, the Main Event....

hrfunk

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 18, 2010
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Ok, folks. We've had a couple preliminary bouts. Now it's time to dim the lights, drop the cage into the ring, and get ready for the "No Holds Barred" main event. Here we go: What is the most historically significant FIREARM ever produced, and of course, why?

HRF
 
Of course I'm gonna say the 1911. Completely changed the game over 100 years ago and is still being made today. My 1911 is by far the best shooting pistol I have. I have owned Glocks, XDs, Desert eagles, revolvers and have shot HKs. None could take the place of my 1911. This is all based on opinion.
 

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I love the 1911 to be sure, but I think we can do better, historically speaking.

HRF
 
I keep leaning toward the AK47, but I'm not quite ready to commit yet.

HRF
 
So did the Colt revolver, the Gatling Gun, the M1 Garand, and others in their respective times. That's why I'm still thinking about which one to go with.

HRF
 
Maxim - the original "machine gun". Used in many wars and set the standard that all other belt-feds were designed on.
 
ak-47 of course. Most widely distributed, most effective in the hands of a rebellion, and probably the most reliable semi automatic gun in the world. I believe that I read somewhere that the AK-47 is responsible for more kills than all the explosive devices put together.
 
An argument could probably be made for the M2 Browning Machine Gun. I believe its the oldest machine gun design still in service. It's been used in virtually every conflict involving the US and/or NATO since the 1920's, and it is still an effective, reliable, weapons system capable of extreme long-range performance if necessary.

HRF
 
What if I was to think outside the box a bit and say a generalized .22lr. Used as trainers for countless years. Most of us own them and shot them, if not all of us. (I have never shot a maxim.) Used by the Boy Scouts and my the Olympics. Influenced conversion kits for many gun designs (1911, ar15, mp5, ppsh, gatling guns). Maybe a 22 hasn't had the most apparent impact on history but honestly ask yourself if you know anyone who has never shot one. Not the best firearm choice or maybe its too big of category but there is a good chance a lot of people on this website wouldn't even be interested in firearms if not first passing through the "gateway" firearm.
 
I think your argument would be more applicable in the thread about the most significant cartridge (good argument, by the way). For this thread, you've got to narrow it down to a specific firearm.

HRF
 
I think your argument would be more applicable in the thread about the most significant cartridge (good argument, by the way). For this thread, you've got to narrow it down to a specific firearm.

HRF

Ha ha yeah I figured. Great topic though. Been thinking about it for hours!
 
Me too. I'm having a much harder time making a selection than I thought I would!

HRF
 
Vote for the Maxim MG aka the Devil's typewriter. Completely obliterated the conventional tactics of the day during WWI and forced the development of armor and mechanized warfare.
 
The Henry/Winchester was an improvement of the action developed by Smith & Wesson during their first partnership. Rights to that action were purchased by Oliver Winchester when the S&W company went belly up. So do we credit the Henry, or the S&W "Volcanic"?

HRF
 
Hmmm, a difficult decision. I would have to say it's a tie between the Maxim and the Stg.44, since those two have probably had the most significant impact on firearms design in the last 100 or so years.
 
I guess its time to make a decision. I've been mulling this over for about 24 hours now, and it hasn't gotten any easier. There are several top contenders. The Mosin 91/30 comes to mind. And you cant ignore the fact that the Japanese conquered a huge portion of the eastern hemisphere with the various iterations of the Arisaka. The M1 Garand was the first semi-automatic rifle issued to a major army, and it certainly influenced the development of every battle rifle that followed it. The Mauser action has been copied by more military and sporting manufacturers than I can think of, and the 1911 has been in continuous service for longer than any other military small arm in history. Decisions, decisions.....I think I'm going to have to settle on the Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. The AK was not revolutionary in its design features. In fact, it barrowed heavily from rifles that preceded it. However, its synthesis of those features into a design that was inexpensive to manufacture, functionally reliable, and reasonably accurate has made it the "go to" small arm for many, many nations, groups, and individuals around the world for over 65 years. The effectiveness of its 7.62X39 cartridge cannot be questioned, nor can its influence over world events from the middle of the 20th century to present day. As an American, it pains me a bit to cast my vote for the weapon that has so often been the tool of our enemies; but if I'm being honest in answering my own question, I don't think I can make another choice. What do you guys think?

HRF
 
Early rifled muskets, Mausers, maxims, mg34, stg44.

Early rifles because of the gained accuracy potential. Mauser because they're still in use and were used by the majority of europe , south America, and many Asian countries and the USA in one form or another. Maxim, the first really successful belt fed. Mg34 for the operating principal of the modern belt fed mg. Stg44 for opening the era of the assault rifle.

I don't include a semi auto like the m1 because it wasn't used or copied anywhere near to the scale of the others listed. During the 30s and 40s, there were quite a few successful ideas about How to go about a semi auto rifle. Semis were very quickly passed up by assault rifles.
 
I've sat this one out, as I just wanted to see what everyone else came up with. As to the AK-47, there's reasons why it was so widely distributed, and they don't all have to do with its effectiveness. At least as much has to do with economics and political turmoil essentially unrelated to the gun itself. If you want to read a fascinating account of this (and one of the best and most unusual histories I've ever read), check out "The Gun" by C. J. Chivers. It explains the whole tortured process as to how the Soviet Union came to develop and adopt the AK, and how it spread so widely throughout the world via their satellites. Terrifically good book, with very interesting histories on both the Gatling and the Maxims, and how they figured into the development of the Kalashnikov.
 
I agree. The "economic" aspect of the AK is one of the points I tried to make in my post above.

HRF
 
The M40A1. (Just kidding)

I thought this one was settled quite some time ago. The Colt Single Action Army is THE most famous historical firearm of all time, hands down. 1873-2013, and still going (with a couple short hickups along the way).
 
I will also say the M1s.... M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A1.... Fine rifles which I need not explain why they are so great. 1917 Springfield for the bolt guns.

I can't just pick one.... ;)

Maxim - Belt fed
AK47 - cheap crap that functions through everything
AR/M16 - light/accurate/capable/accessory queen
M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A1/M14 - 30 cal semis
1917 - Bolt gun
Thompson - sub gun...heavy as hell, but effective
1911 - handgun
 
Well its kind of a lame answer but whatever you would call the firearm that the Chinese invented in the 13thish century. Because with out it none of the others would have ever came about. But that is lame...

So I submit: The first firearm John Browning built at age 13 because that was the catalyst for all his other designs, and IMO he has no equal.
 
The Colt SAA is undoubtably the most famous firearm of all time and probably the most romantic (thanks in large part to Hollywood). I'm not sure, though, it can claim the title of "Most Historically Influential" firearm. Still, I'm a fair guy, if you want to nominate the Peacemaker, then make your case.

HRF
 
The Colt SAA is undoubtably the most famous firearm of all time and probably the most romantic (thanks in large part to Hollywood). I'm not sure, though, it can claim the title of "Most Historically Influential" firearm. Still, I'm a fair guy, if you want to nominate the Peacemaker, then make your case.

HRF
The claim was actually "most historically significant firearm". "Significant" is open to interpretation, hence the named contestants above other than the Peacemaker.
 
You are correct, I paraphrased myself, and changed my original meaning. Washington here I come!

HRF
 
You are correct, I paraphrased myself, and changed my original meaning. Washington here I come!

HRF

To be honest, when I read your post I failed to realize that you were the op. As the op, you can paraphrase or change your own question any way you want. My bad! Fun thread.
 
Okay, since you asked . . . I'll go with jbell's first answer; the first inventive Chinese guy who figured out that you could stuff that black BOOM powder down a pipe or tube of some sort, cram an obstruction in ahead of it and touch it off by some means. THAT is the first gun, and all subsequent developments all flow from there. Hard to beat that answer.

Now, as to the most historically significant firearm (and another way of looking at how this thread was worded), I'm going to have to go with ArmaHeavy's answer from the previous thread; the .32 ACP that Gavrillo Princep used to shoot Archduke Ferdinand and his wife. That one little pistol gave us WWI, which gave rise to Nazism, Communism, the blatant cluster fuck that is the Middle East, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, the resumption of WWI as WWII, the redefining of modern territorial boundries across Europe and the Pacific, and ultimately the Cold War and the collapse of the Evil Empire. All over a couple of 71 grain FMJs.
 
For a number of reasons (and admitting freely that I am a Savage fan), I cast my vote for the Savage model 110. It advanced the manufacturing technology of bolt action rifles which had been largely stagnant since the invention of the Mauser action. The barrel nut and floating bolt head are significant technological advances which grandly simplify manufacture while allowing for similar, if not better, NIB accuracy. Recent rifle design releases from other makers have adopted some or most of the Savage Arms innovations; a significant compliment by imitation. The Accu-trigger-like technology Is also beginning to appear elsewhere.

Greg
 
I will also say the M1s.... M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A1.... Fine rifles which I need not explain why they are so great. 1917 Springfield for the bolt guns.

I can't just pick one.... ;)

Maxim - Belt fed
AK47 - cheap crap that functions through everything
AR/M16 - light/accurate/capable/accessory queen
M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1A1/M14 - 30 cal semis
1917 - Bolt gun
Thompson - sub gun...heavy as hell, but effective
1911 - handgun

Thrusty, I'm curious, why the M1917? I understand that it's fast as hell, but why, specifically, the American version of a british rifle?

For a number of reasons (and admitting freely that I am a Savage fan), I cast my vote for the Savage model 110. It advanced the manufacturing technology of bolt action rifles which had been largely stagnant since the invention of the Mauser action. The barrel nut and floating bolt head are significant technological advances which grandly simplify manufacture while allowing for similar, if not better, NIB accuracy. Recent rifle design releases from other makers have adopted some or most of the Savage Arms innovations; a significant compliment by imitation. The Accu-trigger-like technology Is also beginning to appear elsewhere.

Greg

Can you switch those bolt heads like you would switch barrels? it'd be neat if you could.... going from .223 to .308 bolt face with just a few part swaps would be nice.
 
M1917...personal preference really. You'll find some will claim that the British Enfields would be the better choice. You'll also have the Mosin Nagant folks too. All are great, proven, battle rifles of their time.

The 1917 had some problems early on in their manufacture, but those were worked out. The 30-06 caliber is immensely powerful for an infantry round, easy to load and shoots great. The pistol grip on the 1917 stock is a bit more comfortable (to me) than the straight stock of its counterparts. A properly taken care of action is fast and smooth as is one that's been in battle.

We have a big collection of WWI and WWII era infantry rifles for both American, British and a few German items....so I guess this is the one that I found myself leaning towards as a kid - probably more patriotism than anything...picking up the American rifle...

If it wasn't the 1917, I was shooting the M1 Garand...Out of the 10 M1 Carbines, I found myself picking them up and plinking here and there, but never really becoming overjoyed with them like I would with the M1 Garand or 1917 - probably because I was limited when trying to shoot distance - I remember easily plinking at a 10" plate at 500yrds with the peep sights of the M1 Garand - good rifle we had that was from the DCM (which is now Civilian Marksmanship Program).
 
For the Savage, a qualified yes. There is some parts variation over time; but such swaps are done as a matter of course. I knew of a barrel maker who kept a 110 action and several bolt heads as a test platform for their barrels. My 2002 short action model 10FP has worn a factory .260 barrel, an aftermarket .260 barrel, and currently has a .30BR barrel on. I have a current short action 10FCM scout chambered in 7.62x39, with an eye to rebarrelling with one of the PPC chamberings.

I have a trio of Mosin-Nagant 91/30's, all tricked out essentially identically with scout-mounted scopes for my grandkids and myself to compete among ourselves. The rifles have their limitations, but are economical to own and shoot.

I love my Garand and have several sport hunters chambered for .30-'06, and owned several .308's at one time. My preference for those case capacities have shifted to .280 Rem and .260 rem, due to their greater overall efficiencies. In a world where I had to depend on factory ammo, I'd be dealing almost exclusively with the .30-'06, where handloading is the rule, I'd be loading for .260 and .280.

Greg
 
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Okay, since you asked . . . I'll go with jbell's first answer; the first inventive Chinese guy who figured out that you could stuff that black BOOM powder down a pipe or tube of some sort, cram an obstruction in ahead of it and touch it off by some means. THAT is the first gun, and all subsequent developments all flow from there. Hard to beat that answer.

Now, as to the most historically significant firearm (and another way of looking at how this thread was worded), I'm going to have to go with ArmaHeavy's answer from the previous thread; the .32 ACP that Gavrillo Princep used to shoot Archduke Ferdinand and his wife. That one little pistol gave us WWI, which gave rise to Nazism, Communism, the blatant cluster fuck that is the Middle East, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, the resumption of WWI as WWII, the redefining of modern territorial boundries across Europe and the Pacific, and ultimately the Cold War and the collapse of the Evil Empire. All over a couple of 71 grain FMJs.


This is why I start these threads. Great answer, Kevin!
 
the 32 acp pistol that started ww1 was the mere spark that ignited this war, not the cause. if the archduke would have survived, the war would have started a little later on another incident. taken all together the austrian/hungarians and germans aswell as the french and english were pumped up with propaganda and determined to go to war at that time sothat war had to start sooner or later. phrases like: only a steel thunderstor can clear the sky come to mind

to me it is the ak , the epitope of the poor mans rifle,and very effective
the weapon of choice for every terrorist , insurgent, rebell, and the opressed alike.
it took part in every conflict since 1947 very often as the most prolific arm.
it is even in some national flags.
it is , and will be, the "equalizer" for decades to come
 
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I would say whatever the first firearm was with a rifled barrel, or the first firearm that fired a cartridge instead of ball/patch, etc.
 
The German Army did a study in their recent combat actions and discovered that the majority of firefights they were encountering were in the 50-200 meter range. For this, 9mm submachine guns were inadequate and 8mm Mauser bolt action rifles both too slow, squandering the effectiveness of the long range round. The answer was a rapid-fire weapon that used an Ak-47 vs StG44.intermediate-sized round. Thus began development of the StG44.

If Hugo Schmeisser is thought of as an artist who, instead of paints or clay, molded his artwork from steel, wood, and plastic, then his masterpiece was the StG-44. This design, perfected over two years and numerous prototypes, used metal stampings for ease in mass production. Firing from a 16.5-inch barrel (similar in size to today’s M4), the rifle was only 37-inches long overall. Its 7.92x33mm round is ballistically similar to today’s 7.62x39mm AK round. Being fully automatic, the rifle would fire some 500 rounds per minute at a controllable rate that made short bursts possible for trained soldiers. Once adopted, it was christened the Sturmgewehr (Storm-rifle) and over 400,000 were handed out to German troops in the final days of World War II. Today it is generally thought of as the first successful assault rifle.

Hugo and the AK-47

After the war, the 61-year old inventor fell into Allied hands where Western intelligence experts debriefed him. In June 1945, the Soviet Army occupied Suhl and did the same. Evidently, they liked what they heard because they packed Schmeisser off to the Ural Mountains armament factory town of Izhevsk along with several of his design team. There the Soviets put him to work for six years. While it may never be proven that the German engineer had a hand in it, what is for sure is that the Avtomat AK-47 rifle was born in Izhevsk at about the same time. Today Russia’s biggest munitions enterprise, Izhmash, still produces the AK-47 and others, based in the same city, despite recent money problems
****************** IMHO, History shows who The REAL father of the AK-47, a captured Nazi, the soviets would never admit it. But the StG-44 was the father of the AK-47, the AK is easily the most historically signifigant rifle-world wide-of all time. The total number, the total number used in combat. The total numbers used in combat in various parts of the world, by armies/insurgents alike. South America, Central America, SE Asia, Middle East, all the former Soviet block holding, Africa-and in recent times, I've seen footage of insurgents armed with AK's crossing our southern border with Mexico.
 
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The German Army did a study in their recent combat actions and discovered that the majority of firefights they were encountering were in the 50-200 meter range. For this, 9mm submachine guns were inadequate and 8mm Mauser bolt action rifles both too slow, squandering the effectiveness of the long range round. The answer was a rapid-fire weapon that used an Ak-47 vs StG44.intermediate-sized round. Thus began development of the StG44.

Am I misunderstanding this or are you quoting some unacknowedged source?

The AK47 never saw combat in WW2 and was only adopted by the Soviets in the very late '40's.

How could the Germans have developed the STG44 to use a "AK47 vs STG44 intermediate round"?

Irrespective of the pedigree, timelines the StG44 is the granddad of all "assault rilfes".

Is it the most significant firearm ever produced?

The question needs clarification.

Could be a generic type of weapon (as above, the "Assault Rifle"...or the Gatling Gun, the Maxim come to mind, as do the Mauser bolt action rifle or Enfield SMLE blah! blah!) or

Could be a weapon that literally changed the course history...Gavrillo Princip's Browning for example, or the guns that shot Lincoln or Kennedy, Adolf's Walther that he used to blow his brains out......
 
about the ak, I have the sensation that the most important effort/step forward, from the russian side, was not only re-produce the german intermediate weapon, but masterizing the latest 3rd.Reich's technogies related to the steel sheets press-forming in the same way that the stg44 was produced_
(if I don'go wrong, their first ak's were painfully and costly milled specimens)_ to say it with Conan's words, "they haven't the secret of the steel" _
only after that their consequently low-priced ak has been really able to enter in (their) hit-parade, following the same path learned at the moisin-nagant times, when the real booster of his birth was not russian, but belgian of french (my memory don't help me more)_
 
From Wiki:
During World War II, many countries realized that existing rifles, such as the Mosin-Nagant, were too long and heavy and fired powerful cartridges that were effective in medium machine guns with a range in excess of 2000 meters, creating excessive recoil. These cartridges, such as the 7.92x57mm Mauser, .303 British, .30-06 Springfield, and 7.62x54mmR were effective in rifles to ranges of up to 1,000 metres (1,100 yards); however, it was noted that most firefights took place at maximum ranges of between 100 and 300 metres (110 and 330 yards). Only a highly-trained specialist, such as a sniper, could employ the full-power rifle cartridge to its true potential. Both the Soviet Union and Germany realized this and designed new weapons for smaller, intermediate-power cartridges. The US fielded an intermediate round in the .30 US, now known as the .30 Carbine, and M1 carbines were fielded in large numbers but not as a replacement for the 30-06 round in general use.

The German approach was the production of a series of intermediate cartridges and rifles in the interwar period, eventually developing the Maschinenkarabiner, or machine-carbine, which later evolved into the Sturmgewehr 44 Sturmgewehr, or "assault rifle", which was produced during the war, chambered in the 7.92x33mm Kurz intermediate round.

The Soviet Union type qualified a new intermediate round in 1943, at the same time it began to field the M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine as a general issue small arm. However, the M44, which had a side-folding bayonet and shorter overall length, still fired the full-powered round of its predecessors. A small number of SKS rifles were tested on the front line in early 1945 against the Germans in World War II.[4]

Design-wise, the SKS relies on the AVS-36 (developed by the same designer, Simonov) to a point that some consider it a shortened AVS-36, stripped of select-fire capability and re-chambered for the 7.62x39mm cartridge.[5][6] Of course, this viewpoint is problematic, as the AVS uses a sliding block bolt locking device, while the SKS employs a more reliable tilting-bolt design, which is an entirely different style. As the bolt mechanism is one the defining features of what a rifle "is", having a different bolt means the SKS and AVS merely appear similar in layout, while differing vastly in bolt lockup, caliber, size, and that one has a fixed magazine and the other has a detachable magazine. It also owes a debt to the SVT-40 and M44 that it replaced, incorporating both the semi-automatic firepower of the SVT (albeit in a more manageable cartridge) and the carbine size and integral bayonet of the bolt-action M44.

In 1949, the SKS was officially adopted into the Soviet Army, manufactured at the Tula Armory from 1949 until 1955 and the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant in 1953 and 1954. Although the quality of Soviet carbines manufactured at these state-run arsenals was quite high, its design was already obsolete compared to the Kalashnikov which was selective-fire, lighter, had three times the magazine capacity, and had the potential to be less labor-intensive to manufacture. Gradually over the next few years, AK-47 production increased until the extant SKS carbines in service were relegated primarily to non-infantry and to second-line troops. They remained in service in this fashion even as late as the 1980s, and possibly the early 1990s. To this day, the SKS carbine is used by some ceremonial Russian honor guards, much the same way the M1 Garand is within the United States; it is far less ubiquitous than the AK-47 but both original Soviet SKS rifles and copies can still be found today in civilian hands as well as in the hands of third-world militias and insurgent groups.

The SKS was to be a gap-filling firearm manufactured using the proven operating mechanism design of the PTRS and using proven milled forging manufacturing techniques. This was to provide a fall-back for the radically new and experimental design of the AK-47, in the event that the AK proved to be a failure. In fact, the original stamped receiver AK-47 had to be quickly redesigned to use a milled receiver which delayed production, and extended the SKS carbine's service life.
 
about the ak, I have the sensation that the most important effort/step forward, from the russian side, was not only re-produce the german intermediate weapon, but masterizing the latest 3rd.Reich's technogies related to the steel sheets press-forming in the same way that the stg44 was produced_
(if I don'go wrong, their first ak's were painfully and costly milled specimens)_ to say it with Conan's words, "they haven't the secret of the steel" _
only after that their consequently low-priced ak has been really able to enter in (their) hit-parade, following the same path learned at the moisin-nagant times, when the real booster of his birth was not russian, but belgian of french (my memory don't help me more)_

This is right on, remember the German war machine produced at least 400,000 units and had them fielded, they were not milled, but stamped. After the Soviets took the German designer Schmeisser and placed him in a forced work situation, were they [the Russians] finally able to produce a stamped AK. If it weren't for the stamping of sheet metal, the AK would have been far to expensive and heavy to ever really be a world class weapon. The idea that a shorter range cartridge coupled with semi/fully auto weapon was some how a new idea in the war years and after the war years, it just stupid. Great short range fully auto weapons were decades old at the start of WWII, from sub machine guns (the Thompson for example) to all manners of 9mm fully auto sub guns (on both sides), Let us not forget the M1 carbine (M2 variant etc.). The Soviets not only copied the germans-but most importantly copied the single most important part of the equation-sheet metal stamping, in order to produce the AK as the world knows it now. They were not able to do so until they forced Hugo Schmeisser into one of their "forced labor" design bureaus. Most of my friends in Europe are all fully aware of this, it is only in the US where we seem to buy off on the "brilliance of Kalish". What is interesting, Schmeisser invented numerous weapons prior to the StG44- where as Kalish seems to have only "invented" one weapon during his entire life, and only after the great designer Schmeisser was made to "help" as slave labor by the Soviets. None the less, I still hold that the StG44 was the single most historical weapon invented-when you consider the impact it has had world wide.
 
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