And Now, the Main Event....

[pawprint2]

Am I misunderstanding this or are you quoting some unacknowedged source?

The AK47 never saw combat in WW2 and was only adopted by the Soviets in the very late '40's.

How could the Germans have developed the STG44 to use a "AK47 vs STG44 intermediate round"?

Irrespective of the pedigree, timelines the StG44 is the granddad of all "assault rilfes".

Is it the most significant firearm ever produced?

The question needs clarification.

Could be a generic type of weapon (as above, the "Assault Rifle"...or the Gatling Gun, the Maxim come to mind, as do the Mauser bolt action rifle or Enfield SMLE blah! blah!) or

Could be a weapon that literally changed the course history...Gavrillo Princip's Browning for example, or the guns that shot Lincoln or Kennedy, Adolf's Walther that he used to blow his brains out......

Regarding quoting some "unacknowledged source", this historical data is so commonly known, it doesn't need an acknowledgement - if you need some I guess I could spend a 3 seconds on Google and get some for you.
The Germans produced the StG44 to fire the 7.92 x 33 Kurtz round ( a round still in use today around the world), very similar to the 7.62x39 AK round-prior to the Soviet effort.

 

[wilecoyote]

Pawprint 2,
I'm quite surprised to learn that even behind the russian stamping efforts could bein' mr. Schmeisser's not-so-voluntary work ..._
Seems that mr.Langelius, via Wikip.,helped too to straighten my senile confusion about russian ak's miliing/stamping adventures, by the way_

 

[BasraBoy]

Regarding quoting some "unacknowledged source", this historical data is so commonly known, it doesn't need an acknowledgement - if you need some I guess I could spend a 3 seconds on Google and get some for you.
The Germans produced the StG44 to fire the 7.92 x 33 Kurtz round ( a round still in use today around the world), very similar to the 7.62x39 AK round-prior to the Soviet effort.

Thanks, but you miss the point.

The 7.92 x 33 Kurz and STG44 predate the AK47 (although not the development of the Russian intermediate round) by a number of years.

The development of the STG44 can be traced back to the MkB42....... so to say "The answer was a rapid-fire weapon that used an Ak-47 vs StG44.intermediate-sized round. Thus began development of the StG44" is confusing to say the least.

Maybe they were borne of the same necessity but it may be more accurate to say that the AK47 was a result of Russian experience of the earlier German weapons and a copy of previous designs (including the StG44)...as MK himself alluded to though never admitted?

Carry on!

 

[pawprint2]

Don't believe I've missed the point at all, the AK design and means of production were the result of utilizing captured German designers, the primary being Hugo Schmeisser. The MkB42 was nothing more than an early development in the design of the 44, as you like to quote sources, this is from wiki, but there are hundreds if you so choose to look:

7.92x33mm[3] intermediate round, which also utilized an aerodynamic spitzer rifle bullet design.

MKb 42[edit]

The early Haenel MKb 42(H), the precursor to the MP 43/44. This example belongs to the Springfield Armory National Historic Site.
Contracts for rifles firing the 7.92x33mm[3] round were sent to both Walther and Haenel (whose design group was headed by Hugo Schmeisser) -who were asked to submit prototype weapons under the name Maschinenkarabiner 1942 (MKb 42, literally "machine (ie. fully automatic) carbine"). Both designs were similar, using a gas-operated action, with both semi-automatic and fully automatic firing modes.

To quote from above: "Whose design group was headed by Hugo Schmeisser".
I believe the failure of the Soviets to produce a Viable example of the AK, while the Germans had produced and fielded +-400,000 rifles, and only after capturing and enslaving the primary German designer were they able to produce the AK-utilizing the same process (sheet metal stamping) the Germans had developed speaks for itself. I think you've missed the point.
Carry on!

 

[BasraBoy]

pawprint, I don't disagree with anything you say regarding the 7.92 Kurz round or the development of the STG44....the only issue is the confusing statement you made regarding the STG44 being developed to use an "AK47 vs STG44 intermediate round"

What do you mean by this? The abbreviation "vs" means versus, right?

Your statement seems to imply that the STG44 was in direct competition to the AK47.

Hence the question...is that your personal view or did you cut, paste and edit that from some internet "encyclopedia" after 3 seconds on Google?

I stand by my statement - the STG44 development (traced back to the MkB42) was a number of years before the AK47 was in sight. The round that the AK would eventually use was developed for use in other weapons.

Even ignoring the obvious date clues in the designations of both the weapons in question, their traceable development history and the designation of the rounds they used, it is a historical fact that the political regime and industrial power that spawned the STG44 was consigned to history whilst Mikhael Kalashnikov was still sharpening his pencil on the AK47 and a full 4 years before the AK47 entered production.

If you like chunks of stuff from the internet, here you go:

"AK-47 - Development:

The evolution of the modern assault rifle began during World War II with the German development of the Sturmgewehr 44 (StG44). Entering service in 1944, the StG44 provided German soldiers with the firepower of a submachine gun, but with better range and accuracy. Encountering the StG44 on the Eastern Front, Soviet forces began looking for a similar weapon. Utilizing the 7.62 x 39mm M1943 cartridge, Alexey Sudayev designed the AS-44 assault rifle. Tested in 1944, it was found to be too heavy for widespread use. With the failure of this design, the Red Army temporarily halted its search for an assault rifle.

In 1946, it returned to the issue and opened a new design competition. Among those who entered was Mikhail Kalashnikov. Wounded at the 1941 Battle of Bryansk, he had begun designing weapons during the war and had previously entered a design for a semi-automatic carbine. Though he lost this competition to Sergei Simonov's SKS, he pushed forward with an assault weapon design that drew inspiration from the StG44 and the American M1 Garand. Intended to be a reliable and rugged weapon, Kalashnikov's design (AK-1 & AK-2) sufficiently impressed the judges to advance to the second round.

Encouraged by his assistant, Aleksandr Zaytsev, Kalashnikov tinkered with the design to increase reliability across a wider range of conditions. These alterations advanced his 1947 model to the front of the pack. Testing progressed over the next two years with the Kalashnikov design winning the competition. As a result of this success, it moved to production under the designation AK-47."

 

[pawprint2]

vs., as opposed to or in contrast with.
Not in direct competition with, not at all, in fact I've made it clear, that the historical information points quite clearly that MK, was nothing more than a copier, and not the great weapons inventor that some have made him out to be, in fact, as I have pointed out, the ability to stamp metal in such a way as to allow for the production of the AK, as we know it, wasn't going to happen without some of the captured slave labor the soviets were famous for.
My statement should have read, the The StG44 was developed to use the 7.92 Kurtz as opposed to, or in contrast to, the 7.62 x 39 round, that would be utilized in the AK after Hugo Schmeisser showed MK how to build one, the 30 cal medium round, with similar ballistics to the 7.62x39 round, and case size, was easily adapted to the Schmeisser design. Once again, for the record, I do not believe the AK was in any way shape or form in competition with the StG44 (or the family of weapons developed by Schmeisser that lead to the final StG44 be adopted and mass produced). In Fact, to be clear, I believe the only way the soviets were able to develop and produce the AK, as we know it, was with the forced slave labor of Hugo Schmeisser (and his brother). The two weapons were not in competition with one another, one followed the other. Hope this clears it up for you. In fact I've state several time, on this thread, that only after the capture and enslavement of Hugo Schmeisser were the Soviets able to produce the AK as we know it, I don't know how you've managed to miss this, but I hope that by restating it in clear terms you're able to grasp my meaning-and intent. If not, please let me know I'll try it another way, the problem with communication is sometimes only one person thinks it's happening.
Regarding your chunks of cut and paste-I've read that slop too. Only an idiot would believe that rendition as being historically accurate, lying can take several forms, lying by way of omission is common among politicos, and those re-writing history. To say mk drew inspiration from the StG44, is humorous. I guess it is like Pepsi drawing inspiration from Coke! In reality, it should read, MK utilizing the forced slave labor of a real weapons designer, Hugo Schmeisser, he [mk] was able to take credit for the design of the AK-47.

 

[wilecoyote]

... lying can take several forms, lying by way of omission is common among politicos, and those re-writing history. ....

if you, Pawprint , and Basraboy , are interested to some finely patriotic exercise of the words here above without goin'on the web, I'm sure both you Gentlemen could enjoy the following book, if both well sense-of-humor-equipped...

Serbian and Yugoslav Mauser Rifles (ISBN !-882391-35-7)_

(please,Sirs,note the red face icon:you're warned)

 

[pawprint2]

Thanks for the heads up, after I get it, and am done reading, I'll give you a PM with my take! Everyone can use a little humor.

 

[BasraBoy]

pawprint - seems I was being too literal in my reading of the abbreviation "vs". The way you clarify it makes more sense. Thanks.

Re: the enslavement of the brothers Schmeisser, questions of history, lying (by omission or otherwise) and writing history to suit one's own purpose/perspective...no doubt both the Schmeissers and the likes of Wernher von Braun had some difficult choices to make in 1945.

Given the widespread use of slave labour in Nazi Germany's war industries, I doubt whether the prospect of death (judicially sanctioned for war crimes or otherwise) were very far from the techniques of coersion or "encouragment" faced by either as their services were secured by their respective "new managment".

 

[pawprint2]

Slavery, concentration camps, death camps, forced labor camps etc. are all wrong, be it Nazi, or Soviet. We ( the west) have tended to look the other way---miles away--when it comes to post war soviets. No matter how many Jews, they killed, how many of their own army they killed etc. etc. etc., maybe it's because Stalin, Churchill and FDR were "buddies". What was a holocaust in Nazi controlled areas, was just as much a holocaust in soviet controlled area, we seem to only remember half of the nightmare. We the west, sure didn't want the Nazi's ruling half of Europe, but were okay with Stalin ruling half of Europe. I for one would like to see a New U.S. policy, one that stated the US will not go to war in Europe, to protect any member of the EU, no longer can they call 911, and expect the US, to fight and die, and pay for it. It's time they strapped on a set, and developed their own army and took their own defense seriously, if not, they'll have- as you put it- New management.
The story I heard, was the West had first "crack" at him (Schmeisser), but as he wasn't making rockets or jets we gave the soviets their shot, and they took it. The rest is history.

 

[scatterbrains]

Has to be the stg-44 IMO

 

[Steve Garbe]

Gentlemen,

The most historically significant firearm? Without a doubt that first Swiss or German (a considerable debate rages in some circles over this) firearm made with a rifled barrel.

All else was possible because of this...

Steve Garbe

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I've been holding my water on this one.

To date, the Garand. I think Georgie Patton managed the explanation well enough.

Soon to be, the AR; because of the pending consequences of all the insanity devoted to its suppression. This one really is going to be a game changer. Buy your tickets now...

Greg