Graf .308 bullets in stock again

[melloyello]

Graf and sons has 155gr, 168gr and 175gr .308 bullets in stock again. From what I can tell these are SMK 2nds. I have shot the 175gr against 175gr SMK and can't tell a difference. Get em while you can. I was signed up to receive an email when they came in but I still haven't gotten an email from them.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/920?
Also, just saw that Butch's has 168gr in stock too.
http://www.butchsreloading.com/shop/butch-s-bullets-/756-butch-s-bullets-30cal-168g-hpbt-100-ct.html

 

[bjay]

Graf and sons has 155gr, 168gr and 175gr .308 bullets in stock again. From what I can tell these are SMK 2nds. I have shot the 175gr against 175gr SMK and can't tell a difference. Get em while you can. I was signed up to receive an email when they came in but I still haven't gotten an email from them.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/920?
Also, just saw that Butch's has 168gr in stock too.
Butch's Bullets- 30Cal 168g HPBT 100 ct - Butch's Reloading

are they realy smk?

 

[melloyello]

They look, measure, weigh and perform like smk to me.
I just got off the phone with them and all they said was "They are factory seconds from a large manufacturer." She couldn't give me anymore info than that.

 

[HobbyShooter]

Thanks! I just bought some.

 

[Pinecone]

Got some.

Thanks.

 

[Jake B.]

What do they mean by factory seconds? Are they slightly out of spec or something?

 

[Fredo0621]

Probably just ugly looking jackets if anything. Ugly is a strong word...more like discolored.

 

[melloyello]

All I can tell is that the color may be a tad different. They look just like blems/seconds you would get from midwayusa.

 

[Fatelvis]

Thanks, I just bought 1K 168s!

 

[melloyello]

I received my e-mail notice that they were in stock today at 2pm. Better late than never I guess.

 

[HobbyShooter]

Looks like I'll have mine on Friday. I can take some measurements and pictures then if anyone's interested.

 

[melloyello]

Here are a couple of pics. Which ones are SMK and which are Grafs??

 

[johnny_boy]

One on the left is SMK and one on the right is GRAF?

 

[HobbyShooter]

I'd say the SMK is on the left too, but I only say that because they are a bit shinier. Other than that, they look exactly the same.

 

[vinsonr]

The Hornady seconds I've used previously from Midwayusa have fairly obvious reasons they're rejected. I've found base to ogive varies quite a bit which impacts case capacity and thus pressure. Bullet weights also vary much more than the factory firsts (of course). Loaded using a competition seater die to the same base of cartridge to ogive you end up with a variation in overall cartridge length whereas my factory firsts generally all end up extremely close base to tip. Some batches of 5-10 I've had shoot into 1moa and some blow up to 2-3 moa. I would not use factory seconds for anything where I'm expecting precision out of my weapon system unless you want to spend hours first sorting them by weight and then by base to ogive distance.

 

[melloyello]

The Hornady seconds I've used previously from Midwayusa have fairly obvious reasons they're rejected. I've found base to ogive varies quite a bit which impacts case capacity and thus pressure. Bullet weights also vary much more than the factory firsts (of course). Loaded using a competition seater die to the same base of cartridge to ogive you end up with a variation in overall cartridge length whereas my factory firsts generally all end up extremely close base to tip. Some batches of 5-10 I've had shoot into 1moa and some blow up to 2-3 moa. I would not use factory seconds for anything where I'm expecting precision out of my weapon system unless you want to spend hours first sorting them by weight and then by base to ogive distance.

I look forward to someone measuring from base to ogive on some of these. I have shot groups with these at 100yds and shot them out to 500yds so far and they perform the same with no change in POI or accuracy for me. If there are major differences I can't see them. Those Hornady bullets must have been way out of spec. From 1 MOA to 2-3MOA? Were they out of round? I have used a few different bullets in my guns and even while working up a load I haven't seen anything like that. What gun were you shooting these in?
Even the real deal SMK will cause a difference in OAL. Out of a box of 100 you will run into 4-5 different lengths from base to tip. Normally varying up to .006-.007" from what I have seen.

 

[Hogshooter]

I ordered 500 of the 168 gn. Grafs and they came in today. I loaded 120 to the same specs that I load 168 SMK and 168 AMAX. Out of those 120 I found 3 with not fully formed meplats. The open tip basically stopped where the lead core stopped. Looked like a large hollow point with lead all the way to the end. At the price that they are being sold I will accept that. As far as accuracy is concerned, they shoot just like my other SMKs. Here is a 3 round group at 100 yds that my LMT MWS just shot with the fully formed Grafs bullets. The 5 round groups were just as good as long as I didn't include the last round from the mag. This is from my gas gun not my GAP bolt rifle.

 

[Fredo0621]

Very good info, Hogshooter. Its worth the price.

 

[Hogshooter]

On another note, I loaded the 3 not fully formed bullets and shot them into my steel plate at 100 yds. They grouped under an inch dead center, Just could not measure due to the lead splatter.

 

[HobbyShooter]

I ordered the 175's and just got home to find them on the doorstep. I'm heading to work soon, but I had time to measure 20 SMK's and 20 of the Graf's. Measurements are from the base to ogive.

SMK: .6635, .6620, .6660, .6650, .6645, .6655, .6635, .6650, .6655, .6655, .6650, .6620, .6640, .6620, .6665, .6645, .6615, .6630, .6655, .6625

Graf's: ..6650, .6625, .6674, .6665, .6525, .6735, .6610, .6620, .6590, .6565, .6525, .6675, .6500, .6710, .6620, .6615, .6605, .6660, .6675, .6565


Obviously, there's a lot more variation in the Graf's bullets. I'm headed out to work now. We have a scale that measures in milligrams and is calibrated monthly. I'll take the same two groups of 20 and report with weights when I get off work.

 

[jake_c02]

I got 300 of 168s and 300 of the 175s. I've found two with messed up tips but other then that look identical to the SMK's. I hope to shoot them tomorrow and compare with the SMK's.

 

[melloyello]

I ordered the 175's and just got home to find them on the doorstep. I'm heading to work soon, but I had time to measure 20 SMK's and 20 of the Graf's. Measurements are from the base to ogive.

SMK: .6635, .6620, .6660, .6650, .6645, .6655, .6635, .6650, .6655, .6655, .6650, .6620, .6640, .6620, .6665, .6645, .6615, .6630, .6655, .6625

Graf's: ..6650, .6625, .6674, .6665, .6525, .6735, .6610, .6620, .6590, .6565, .6525, .6675, .6500, .6710, .6620, .6615, .6605, .6660, .6675, .6565


Obviously, there's a lot more variation in the Graf's bullets. I'm headed out to work now. We have a scale that measures in milligrams and is calibrated monthly. I'll take the same two groups of 20 and report with weights when I get off work.

Interesting findings there HobbyShooter. Never expected a .01" difference in base to ogive length.

 

[HobbyShooter]

I ordered the 175's and just got home to find them on the doorstep. I'm heading to work soon, but I had time to measure 20 SMK's and 20 of the Graf's. Measurements are from the base to ogive.

SMK: .6635, .6620, .6660, .6650, .6645, .6655, .6635, .6650, .6655, .6655, .6650, .6620, .6640, .6620, .6665, .6645, .6615, .6630, .6655, .6625

Graf's: ..6650, .6625, .6674, .6665, .6525, .6735, .6610, .6620, .6590, .6565, .6525, .6675, .6500, .6710, .6620, .6615, .6605, .6660, .6675, .6565


Obviously, there's a lot more variation in the Graf's bullets. I'm headed out to work now. We have a scale that measures in milligrams and is calibrated monthly. I'll take the same two groups of 20 and report with weights when I get off work.

Here are the weights in grams:

SMK: 11.334, 11.346, 11.349, 11.338, 11.343, 11.333, 11.346, 11.343, 11.338, 11.337, 11.344, 11.345, 11.340, 11.353, 11.339, 11.345, 11.344, 11.345, 11.335, 11.338

Graf's: 11.345, 11.346, 11.335, 11.371, 11.342, 11.333, 11.347, 11.332, 11.338, 11.347, 11.351, 11.348, 11.342, 11.343, 11.335, 11.349, 11.330, 11.340, 11.352, 11.344

More variation in weights as well, which is to be expected.

I think the real test is what Hogshooter did with the 168's and actually load some up and see how they perform. I think something to keep in mind is if you're looking for 1/2 MOA groups, you're probably already sorting your bullets by length and weight anyway and then loading similar groups together. Why not buy these and any that fall further out in weight or length could be used as sighters or foulers.

I haven't shot them yet, but I'd buy them again. Actually, I doubt I'll buy full priced SMK's again if I can keep getting these.

 

[HobbyShooter]

Interesting findings there HobbyShooter. Never expected a .01" difference in base to ogive length.

Yeah. It may freak out those that are changing seating lengths by .005", but the OCW camp seems to believe accuracy is less affected by seating length when you have a good OCW load anyway.

Disclaimer: I am pretty new to all this stuff, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.