Honing/Customizing Dies?

[sentry1]

I have RCBS x-dies that I use for loading .223 and .308 (both for ARs). As a novice reloader, I bought into the whole concept of reducing neck stretching with the X-die design.

However, now that I have a wee bit more experience, I've been looking at what the die does in more detail. My .308 chamber pops out that brass with an OD 0.357". The .308 die sizes it down to 0.324" before the expander ball opens it up again. This seems like a lot more brass-working than is necessary. I anneal my brass after the first firing, and every third firing after that, but the less work hardening, the better, right?

So, can I, and is it worthwhile to, send my dies in to someone to have the neck portion of the die honed out to a dimension that is customized for my chamber?

147gr M80 (LC brass): 0.339" loaded
175gr M118LR (LC LR brass): 0.339" loaded

 

[milo 2.0]

I'm sure someone or place can do it. In your case, with the numbers you posted, it would be wise to do it. I have a 7mm saum x-die, without ball it goes .308", put he the ball back in and it reads .312", my bushing size with a Redding die.
.023" is an awful lot of movement.

 

[8nbait]

I have sent dies to Forster for honing, not sure if they will hone another brand or not. My 260 die sized down to .281 and I needed it to be .291, sent it off and got it back in about 10 days.

 

[ZiaHunter]

You may want to consider bushing type dies such as the Redding S type in lieu of having the neck honed.

 

[ksthomas]

Sentry,

You need to bear in mind that honing is a bit of a one-way street; once done, it can't be undone. Wouldn't be a problem if you were only going to load one type of brass from this point forward, but different brands or makes will vary a bit in neck thickness. Enough so that the resulting neck tension will vary considerably between various brands and lots of cases. I'd suggest taking Ziahunters advice, and going with the bushing dies. They accomplish the same thing, while still giving you the versatility to decide exactly how much neck tension you want or need.

 

[sentry1]

In my .223 right now I load exclusively LC brass, because I have tons of it.

For the .308 AR, I'll do the math on having 2 X-dies honed for LC LR and regular LC brass, vs. a bushing die and bushings.

So what's the rule of thumb for neck sizing? If my loaded brass is 0.xxx" neck diameter, how much smaller should I size it with the bushing?

 

[The Mechanic]

+1 on Zia. I would try the neck sizing. It will work the neck significantly less. You can even get a body only die and have a two process forming that will extend the heck out of your brass. The only issue you may have is neck tension based on whatever your barrel measures. This may come in to play if your is a little to large and a light rifle. It could end up pushing bullets into cases. May not be your situation but something to check none the less

 

[sentry1]

Well since I have a pretty good supply of LC / LC LR brass, and both M80 and M118LR ammo is showing 0.339" loaded neck diameter, would it be better to spend money on honing my existing X-die, or spending the money on a bushing die?

So, I should either have the X-die or bushing set up to size the neck to 0.337" outside diameter?

P.S. Any recommendations for a neck turning setup? When my 6.5 Creedmoor comes in, I think I may take up neck-turning. I'd also like to be able to get mods to do it for .308 and .223.

 

[ksthomas]

The figure of .337" should be good, if the cases neck O.D. are measuring at .339" right now. The figure of .002" under is a good place to start, but it's worth playing with just a bit to see if there's any improvement with more/less tension. The LC Match and standard brass should be identical in terms of dimensions, so I wouldn't anticipate the need for a different set of bushings there. Worth checking just to make sure, though.

As to the neck turning, you're not talking about this for the ARs or another autoloader, are you? Those two really don't go well together. Again, what's fine for a bolt gun, is often problematic with autos; don't mix them.

 

[sentry1]

I was thinking of primarily neck turning for my bolt action 6.5 CM, but you're saying don't neck turn for the ARs?

Also, what about spring back? Do the bushing sizes already account for spring back? I.E. is a .337 bushing set up to give me a 0.337" OD after springback?

Any recommendations for someone to do the die honing, if I go that route?

 

[ksthomas]

No qualms about it for a bolt gun, especially if you're dealing with a fairly close neck. Definately not for autoloaders, ARs or otherwise. The close tolerances of BR or other accuracy oriented bolt guns are a natural fit for the added accuracy offered by such techniques as neck turning. The tolerances need to be a bit looser for autos, or you wind up dealing with an unreliable gun that has constant malfunctions. Trying to build a BR tolerance autoloader is just a recepie for frustration. They (ARs in particular) are capable of phenomenal accuracy if they're well built, but they have to have enough "room" to function. Not so much an issue with the ARs, but others, like the M1 and M14 family also have the problem of short brass life (three firings, max) that make the time and effort involved in neck turning pointless.

I always go with a spread of bushings, as I mentioned before, of at least .001" above and below whatever the "specified" dimension may be. Never hurts to have a few extra beyond those, either. Springback will ary a bit, and that's why (or ne of the reasons, anyway) it's good to have a spread. Adjust as the accuracy tells you to, and don't get too hung up on what anyone says is "correct." The gun will tell you. So long as there's sufficient neck tensionto prevent bullet movement, you're good to go.

As for who does the honing, can't help you there, since that's probably going to be a local thing. Several of the die makers will do this, but it's probably just as easy to hit one of your local machine shops, and they can hone it out. One thing I will admit missing about Sierra is having a fully equipped machine shop and a bunch of good machinists to handle stuff like this. Check out the local shops first, andthen the die makers if you have to.

 

[YukonRob]

Well said, Mr Thomas. I've discovered the frustration you speak of first hand, at considerable expense and countless time. I couldn't agree more with your comments.
My $.02 is look into the Forester collet type trimmer (which I do NOT prefer as a trimmer) equipped with their neck turning attachment. I have tried the RCBS neck turner and the Sinclair hand neck turner, and greatly prefer the forester setup to either. It's collet system "clamps" the case head so your work stays put, and the cutter feed system is very smooth and easy to use. It's only limitations are, like all neck turners, how well the case neck I.D. fits the pilot.
Here are links to the products mentioned.
* - the trimmer
FORSTER Neck Turner | Sinclair Intl - the turning attachment