My Class III dealer is dragging his feet to get my approved SBR lower engraved with my trust's name. He says I can just come pick up the lower and not worry about it, but I'm not about to take possession of that lower if it's illegal. What I'm thinking is that I need to just get it engraved myself. What say you? How long of a "grace period", if any, do I have to get it engraved?
Suppressors SBR engraving
- Thread starter ZLBubba
- Start date
I was wondering if this was true. It seems as though everyone is overly concerned about engraving their lowers, but I have never seen where it is required? The Form 1 makes no mention, nor does it require that you fill in what you have engraved on the lower?
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You can write to them and ask, they do answer.
But the reason to have to engrave is when you are the manufacturer. This is stated in section 6.2.1.
If you are not going to sell it, then you are not a manufacturer, so no need to engrave.
However, you may have tripped yourself up on the Form1, as what markings did you list? Did you list existing, or what you intend to engrave? As if you listed the intended, they need to be there.
If you want to ensure no-one can ever pick fault, then it should be engraved so that no-one could interpret the law incorrectly.
I use Ident Marking and have them do it hidden in the trigger area.
But the reason to have to engrave is when you are the manufacturer. This is stated in section 6.2.1.
If you are not going to sell it, then you are not a manufacturer, so no need to engrave.
However, you may have tripped yourself up on the Form1, as what markings did you list? Did you list existing, or what you intend to engrave? As if you listed the intended, they need to be there.
If you want to ensure no-one can ever pick fault, then it should be engraved so that no-one could interpret the law incorrectly.
I use Ident Marking and have them do it hidden in the trigger area.
It's a Form 4. As I understand it, since my Trust will take ownership of it, I should have the engraving stating as such since it's not a direct transfer to me as an individual. This may not be relevant since I've no intention of selling it, but nonetheless I live in a communist state and don't want to give anyone a reason to have issue with it. Plus, Class III weapons are not very prevalent at the ranges I shoot at so I can be sure to be inspected just about every time I go by people. The engraving may not be necessary, but I want all my NFA stuff to be dress-right-dress should Huckleberry Hound decide to fuck with me. I got the engraving for free anyway.
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Your trust should prove the trust owns the firearm. If you are a trustee, you can fill out and sign the 4473 when it's transferred from your FFL/SOT to you/your trustl. My trust has an assignment sheet and others call this a 'Schedule A' but it's basically a document that shows the trust owns whatever is listed on that sheet. Mine is signed by me and witnessed by two others.
The approved Form4 should have the name of your trust and address in box 2a. That's all you need right there.
I hope you don't get your stuff inspected each time you goto the range. If you do, I'd consider that harassment and keep good notes on who/when/where. Don't forget, you're a law abiding gun owner!!
FWIW, I've never heard of any requirement whatsoever of having to engrave your trust on what I assume is a SBR that started life out on a Form2 and not a Form1. My Form1 SBRs are engraved but my next trip to the SBR rodeo will be via Form4. The money I've spent sending my lowers off to be engraved plus my time to manage it has just simply not been worth it. YMMV.
I've been wrong before, so if you find some documentation of this please post it up!
The approved Form4 should have the name of your trust and address in box 2a. That's all you need right there.
I hope you don't get your stuff inspected each time you goto the range. If you do, I'd consider that harassment and keep good notes on who/when/where. Don't forget, you're a law abiding gun owner!!
FWIW, I've never heard of any requirement whatsoever of having to engrave your trust on what I assume is a SBR that started life out on a Form2 and not a Form1. My Form1 SBRs are engraved but my next trip to the SBR rodeo will be via Form4. The money I've spent sending my lowers off to be engraved plus my time to manage it has just simply not been worth it. YMMV.
I've been wrong before, so if you find some documentation of this please post it up!
WHOA, YES you do have to engrave it! I have not had mine engraved for 4 years I went to I asked the same question to my local ATF agent and was told I didn't have to. As time went on I was told you do have to so I called NFA branch and talked to a SPECIAL AGENT who handles SBRs and was told unless I want to spend 15 years in federal prison over an AR-15 I better get it engraved.
Form 4 SBR, since you are not the manufacturer of the SBR, you shouldnt have to have any of your info engraved on it.
Form 1 SBR, since you are manufacturing, from a pre-existing lower, an SBR, you should engrave your Trust name, city, and state. I think caliber engraving is optional.
Form 1 SBR, since you are manufacturing, from a pre-existing lower, an SBR, you should engrave your Trust name, city, and state. I think caliber engraving is optional.
I guess in lawyers terms, a Form 1 "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" would imply that you are a manufacturer (would need clarification on the term "licensed" below however). The following was taken from this, http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/5300-4.pdf;
§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition feeding
devices?
(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed
manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms,
must legibly identify each firearm
manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping
(impressing), or otherwise conspicuously
placing or causing to be engraved,
cast, stamped (impressed) or
placed on the frame or receiver
thereof an individual serial number.
The serial number must be placed in
a manner not susceptible of being
readily obliterated, altered, or removed,
and must not duplicate any
serial number placed by you on any
other firearm. For firearms manufactured
or imported on and after January
30, 2002, the engraving, casting,
or stamping (impressing) of the serial
number must be to a minimum depth
of .003 inch and in a print size no
smaller than 1/16 inch;
§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition feeding
devices?
(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed
manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms,
must legibly identify each firearm
manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping
(impressing), or otherwise conspicuously
placing or causing to be engraved,
cast, stamped (impressed) or
placed on the frame or receiver
thereof an individual serial number.
The serial number must be placed in
a manner not susceptible of being
readily obliterated, altered, or removed,
and must not duplicate any
serial number placed by you on any
other firearm. For firearms manufactured
or imported on and after January
30, 2002, the engraving, casting,
or stamping (impressing) of the serial
number must be to a minimum depth
of .003 inch and in a print size no
smaller than 1/16 inch;
I don't know about Maryland but would assume ATF is ATF in the US.
I was the class 3 guy at a range in Texas that I ran for a friend
if its a FORM 4 then its already labeled as a SBR from the manufacturer on the Form 3 and does NOT need to be engraved, after the FORM 4 clears, fill out the 4473 and its all yours
NOW if its a FORM 1 that YOU are creating then YES it needs to be engraved by the builder to state that its owned by a Trust or Person, and this will go in section "(H) additional description" of the FORM 1
If all FORM 4's needed to be engraved, how many suppressors from AAC or Thunderbeast have you engraved ?? I hope none
I've never had any of my machine guns engraved since they were FORM 4's
When I made a suppressor I needed to engrave it as I was the builder since it was a FORM 1
I was the class 3 guy at a range in Texas that I ran for a friend
if its a FORM 4 then its already labeled as a SBR from the manufacturer on the Form 3 and does NOT need to be engraved, after the FORM 4 clears, fill out the 4473 and its all yours
NOW if its a FORM 1 that YOU are creating then YES it needs to be engraved by the builder to state that its owned by a Trust or Person, and this will go in section "(H) additional description" of the FORM 1
If all FORM 4's needed to be engraved, how many suppressors from AAC or Thunderbeast have you engraved ?? I hope none
I've never had any of my machine guns engraved since they were FORM 4's
When I made a suppressor I needed to engrave it as I was the builder since it was a FORM 1
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I was told: factory SBR no need to engrave because the manufacturer is already on there.
If you manufacture, like cut the barrel down to 8" then you have manufactured an SBR and engrave
I am not a class III dealer or ATF, but I did stay at a holiday inn express once..with my SBR
If you manufacture, like cut the barrel down to 8" then you have manufactured an SBR and engrave
I am not a class III dealer or ATF, but I did stay at a holiday inn express once..with my SBR
I've always heard the Form 4 no engraving, and Form 1 you do have to get it engraved because you are MANUFACTURING it. It's also my understanding, the ATF considers you to be "manufacturing" if you put an already assembled SBR upper (or any upper for that matter) on an already assembled lower AND sell it. The selling it part is critical in considering you a manufacturer. So whether you build the whole rifle from scratch, or you're simply putting an Advanced Armament AAC 300 BLK completed upper with 9" barrel on a complete Seekins lower that you bought at Houston Armory, you're still considered the manufacturer IF YOU SELL IT. Ok, I get that. But I recently had someone tell me they don't get any of their lowers engraved, even though he's putting one on a SBR upper. He claims that he didn't manufacture the lower, POF did, and that's what he put on the Form 1 for markings. Plus he doesn't plan on selling it. He claims he spoke with an agent in the NFA division of the ATF (didn't say if it was a special agent or not), and that person told him he was right. I disagree with him, and think he should spend the $150 or whatever it costs. Cheap insurance.
My advice is to contact the ATF yourself and not reley on a internet fourm to get answers that can land you in the pokey. With that said my form 1 lower has been engraved with my info.
This site as well as others have given lots of good information but there are lots of internet experts out there on these sites that dont know jack.
Write a letter to the ATF in detail on what you are doing and then you will get a letter back. It just may save your ass someday.
Here is where I have had mine done.
http://www.graylaser.com/
This site as well as others have given lots of good information but there are lots of internet experts out there on these sites that dont know jack.
Write a letter to the ATF in detail on what you are doing and then you will get a letter back. It just may save your ass someday.
Here is where I have had mine done.
http://www.graylaser.com/
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Sir-
I am in the same boat; and just spoke with the NFA division yesterday-they advised that I would indeed have to get the weapon engraved. She said that if I leave Section 4 (h) blank, it's just assumed that I will have the weapon properly engraved: that is, with my name (as it appears on the form 1), my city, and state. Hope that helps-I have called and searched all around for info concerning this, being my first SBR (and then onto a suppressor) build...
I am in the same boat; and just spoke with the NFA division yesterday-they advised that I would indeed have to get the weapon engraved. She said that if I leave Section 4 (h) blank, it's just assumed that I will have the weapon properly engraved: that is, with my name (as it appears on the form 1), my city, and state. Hope that helps-I have called and searched all around for info concerning this, being my first SBR (and then onto a suppressor) build...
Alright new guy here with a dumb question. Can I engrave a lower myself? It won't look good so can I put it where it will be covered by the pistol grip or inside the mag well? If I engrave it myself, such as how I mark my tools, I could save myself some coin and time back and forth. I read the language above and saw "conspicuously" which seems like it might have to be obviously out in the open. Thanks
Federal Firearms Regulations Guide
Yes, you do as the "maker" need to get the firearm engraved with your name (first and last is sufficient), city and state. You cannot use any initials or abbreviations, however you can abbreviate the state using the accepted abbreviations used by the USPS (post office). You can do this yourself or have this professionally done, but you must follow the guidelines set forth within the regulations handbook I posted above. Conspicuously is up for interpretation but basically you need to have it engraved where it won't be covered by any accessories or attachments.
Furthermore, you must be licensed to be a manufacturer, if you are in the business of making firearms and accepting payment you are a manufacturer. If this is strictly for personal use and not directly for resale--you decided to sell it later for whatever reason--than the ATF considers you a maker.
Finally, I have never heard of ATF EVER prosecuting an individual just because their properly registered NFA firearm wasn't engraved correctly.
Yes, you do as the "maker" need to get the firearm engraved with your name (first and last is sufficient), city and state. You cannot use any initials or abbreviations, however you can abbreviate the state using the accepted abbreviations used by the USPS (post office). You can do this yourself or have this professionally done, but you must follow the guidelines set forth within the regulations handbook I posted above. Conspicuously is up for interpretation but basically you need to have it engraved where it won't be covered by any accessories or attachments.
Furthermore, you must be licensed to be a manufacturer, if you are in the business of making firearms and accepting payment you are a manufacturer. If this is strictly for personal use and not directly for resale--you decided to sell it later for whatever reason--than the ATF considers you a maker.
Finally, I have never heard of ATF EVER prosecuting an individual just because their properly registered NFA firearm wasn't engraved correctly.
He probably meant "specialist", there are approximately six that work exclusively for NFA. However, none of them specialize in a particular type of firearm and only one or two of them know what they are actually talking about.
You have to adhere to ATFs depth and height requirements for engraving. They have specific requirements
On my SBR I had the lower and used a Form 1 to MAKE and register a firearm. Since I made it I have to engrave it as the maker. The factory make a lower but they didn't make an SBR lower unless they registered it and paid the tax. I sent it off to Indent Marking in Dallas, Texas and they engraved it "XXXXXXX XXXXXX Living Revokeable Trust" for $60 plus shipping. So I paid shipping both ways. They will engrave it where ever you want it done provided the engraving will fit.
The depth of the engraving is perscribed and it took them three weeks to get it back. I had it engraved before I got my Form 1 back so I was GTG when the stamped Form came home.
The depth of the engraving is perscribed and it took them three weeks to get it back. I had it engraved before I got my Form 1 back so I was GTG when the stamped Form came home.
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I engraved mine myself. I bought an engraving tool made by Dremel and traced it out with that. Then I used an engraving bit for a regular Dremel and made it wider and deeper. It looks ok, but I'm never getting rid of it. It's legal and that's all I cared about.
It can't be hidden. It must be in plain sight.
These questions should not be that difficult. The penalty for breaking these laws is major, so why not just read the NFA handbook for yourself?
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf
Also, If you have questions that are not answered in the NFA handbook, then you better write a letter asking so that you get a letter in response. You might call 3 different days to 3 different agents on the different days and get 3 different answers. If you don't have it in writing from the ATF, then what you were told doesn't matter when you are sitting in prison. Just my opinion.
Here are some excerpts from the NFA handbook that pertain to some of what has been discussed.
Montana hit the nail on the head, i have the letter from the ATF where it states YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ENGRAVE THE LOWER UNLESS YOU SELL IT. Also hes correct about you might of screwed the pooch if you didnt list the existing serial number on your Form 1 as identifying marks
All this and your INCORRECT, IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE ENGRAVED unless you plan on selling it. You can look at your handbook all day long i prefer to read the letter the ATF has sent me stating this. THE ONLY TIME YOU HAVE TO ENGRAVE IT IS IF YOU SELL IT OR MANUFACTURE YOUR LOWER FROM A BLANK YOURSELF. The original serial number is suffice for a Form 1 SBR. Anyone who doesnt know this off hand, does not have any idea of what there talking about and is going strictly off hearsay. TRUST ME ONE THIS ONE GUYS.
WRONG WRONG WRONG, Hes not the maker unless he did the milling work from a blank piece of metal and made the lower, SBR lowers DO NOT need engraved unless sold or you did what i previously just said. Its amazing how many people in the gun world think they know what there are talking about but really have no clue.
Hilarious another person who doesnt know you DO NOT have to engrave your lower unless you plan on selling it or cut the lower yourself out of a blank. And 15years in jail lmao i know someone who got caught with a illegal sbs and all they did was confiscate it and then told the police department to keep it as a gift. Thats ALL!!! They said they didnt have the time to persue a case to imprison the law breaker. Unless your a gunrunner or something but the average joe. SLAP ON THE HAND
It was legal before you engraved it, YOU DONT NOT HAVE TO ENGRAVE IT UNLESS YOU SELL IT OR YOU ACTUALLY MILLED THE LOWER YOURSELF FROM A BLANK
Ok. I will trust your letter over the NFA handbook. This just goes to show how few people (including ATF agents) really know what the laws are. I do believe you have a letter, but until I have a letter stating the same and am willing to carry it at all times I am going to follow the handbook. The reality is I could ask this same question and request a letter response and get a completely different answer than you did.
So in short, you might find quotes from the NFA handbook "hilarious", but no, I will not "trust you" over the NFA handbook.
--Daniel
This is real simple:
Form 4: You do not have to engrave it since you are not the manufacturer.
Form 1: You must engrave as you became the manufacturer by changing its status form a title I to a title II weapon.
You may engrave it yourself as long as the engraving meets the requriements set forth by the ATF.
Field agents are often wrong. I get wrong answers from field agents all the time. Its a fact of life.
Form 4: You do not have to engrave it since you are not the manufacturer.
Form 1: You must engrave as you became the manufacturer by changing its status form a title I to a title II weapon.
You may engrave it yourself as long as the engraving meets the requriements set forth by the ATF.
Field agents are often wrong. I get wrong answers from field agents all the time. Its a fact of life.
Please post the letter so we can read the wording of your question and then the answer to your question.
Form 4: You do not have to engrave it since you are not the manufacturer.
Form 1: You must engrave as you became the manufacturer by changing its status form a title I to a title II weapon.
TexGun is correct.
Caliber is optional on the receiver, but must be somewhere. Most of the time the barrel manufacturers engrave the caliber which will satisfy the requirement.
--Daniel
About five years back, a local guy got into an argument and shot and killed his business partner with an illegal SBS. The ATF did investigate the illegal NFA, but did absolutely nothing in regards to charging him with possession of an illegal NFA firearm.
So much for the 10-25 years in jail and $10,000-250,000 fine that everybody keeps spouting off about.
Well there you go....... They just don't care so do whatever you want because a guy.....yada yada yada..
I am not saying do what you want, I just get tired of people quoting the Blah, Blah, 10-25 years in jail with bubba (this changes depending on the poster) blah, blah $10,000-250,000 fine (this also changes) and many times, they won't touch the case.
Well then the question is "Is it worth the risk"? Do you want to be "the guy" they make an example out of? If not... you must play by the rules.
It is surprising that you think you actually know what you are talking about based upon a some letter you say you received from ATF. As others have stated, that letter has no legal authority and is only an opinion based upon a specific question that you asked.
As an individual making a Title I firearm, with no plans to sell it, you are not required to mark the firearm at all. Let me repeat that statement, you are not required to mark the firearm at all if: 1) you made it from scratch (or from an uncompleted piece of billet as you stated) and 2) you keep it for personal use only. For the purposes of NFA, you become the "maker" when you convert/make a Title I firearm into a Title II firearm. Furthermore, I don't know how much knowledge you have on the subject of NFA in general but not all SBRs have "lowers" as you infer by your statement. I assume you mean receiver or frame (as defined by ATF regs).
Anyone can go ahead and live in a world filled with make believe ATF letters and half truths, but I will choose to use my many years of industry experience dealing with the ATF and NFA branch as a basis of my opinions and statements.
If the OP or other interested individuals haven't already done so, go here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/index.html and download the NFA Handbook. Go to section 6.2.1 and section 7.4 and read up on what is needed and required for the making of NFA firearms by non-licensees.
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Exactly... This is why I asked to see the alleged letter... 10 days ago.
"If" he has a letter I think it is for a title 1 firearm and he went back and read it and now he has vanished.
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