ScenarL vs Berger Hybrid photos and ogive question

[bdubb]

I am slowly accumulating what is needed to start reloading for the first time and will be doing so on a 260 Remington that should be arriving at the end of this year. Without having experience yet in reloading and still in the stage of reading all I can I noticed a box of Berger Hybrid 140gr 6.5mm bullets have some creases, or possibly stress cracks at the forward end of the ogive. I compared them against some new Scenar-L 136gr and notice the Lapua has some very slight lines as well, but nothing as pronounced as the Bergers. Are these lines typical in target style bullets at this level and do they present any issues with accuracy or anything else?

Berger's only

Below are some photos just for shits and grins that show some comparisons against the Lapua Scenar-L's which are on the left in the photos and the 140gr Berger Target Hybrid

 

[bward]

Not a big deal. They will have a lot bigger creases in them after they get pushed through your barrel at 60,000 psi.

 

[bdubb]

Not a big deal. They will have a lot bigger creases in them after they get pushed through your barrel at 60,000 psi.

Very true, just wasn't something I recall seeing on factory ammo and was curious since it's in front of the bearing surface that would engages the rifling.

 

[shooter.dm]

That is normal the ends of the bullets are crimped closed after the are field

 

[rommel500]

I noticed this exact thing when I first got the Berger Hybrid 140s. I posted here on Sniper's Hide and got replies that is normal for these bullets, but nobody could say why. I also emailed Berger's support and got this reply.

"These lines are caused by the lubrication as the long point secant ogive is being pointed and they do not hurt anything and will not effect accuracy

Tech Support
Berger Bullets"

 

[bdubb]

Thank you Rommel and everyone else.

 

[ksthomas]

bdubb,

You called this correctly, and no, it's not a lube issue. These are indeed stress fractures. They're caused in some lots of material during the final forming process in bullets in which there is no lead "backing" the jacket. You'll notice that this isn't present on spitzers, and other designs in which the lead core extends throughout the jacket, just hollow points or HPBT designs. Some batches of material are just a tad harder than others, and this sort of fracturing becomes apparent during production. At least one manufacturer goes so far as to anneal these troublesome batches, which reduces (but does not eliminate) these fissures. Most companies will have some threshold at which these become unacceptable and the bullets are rejected. It is, however, generally little more than a cosmetic blemish, and does not affect the accuracy or performance of the bullets. In really extreme cases (and these ARE true rejects), the jackets will crack enough that they don't "form" but instead wrap-around themselves, leaving a very visibly obvious "fold" which extends to the meplat of the ogvie. That's a genuine problem, but anything less shouldn't concern you too much.

 

[BoilerUP]

I've got five boxes of Nosler .224 77gr Custom Comp bullets that look worse than that.

I was concerned (there is a thread about that around here somewhere) as I could just barely feel them with a fingernail, but they shoot just fine.

 

[jbailey]

Thanks for sharing these side-by-side photos.
big meplat on the ScenarL. Its ogives appear shorter than the Hybrid. About the same bearing area and boat tails.
Interesting comps. Still very interested in seeing the BCs of these (as well as the Scenar: 120's... if they are 'optimized 123's' they really could be something nice for us 600yd shooters).

 

[jwp6114]

In general... Go Berger, heavier generally higher BC and shorter bearig surface, be surprised if the bergers weren't much faster than the Lapua for this reason.

 

[bdubb]

bdubb,

You called this correctly, and no, it's not a lube issue. These are indeed stress fractures. They're caused in some lots of material during the final forming process in bullets in which there is no lead "backing" the jacket. You'll notice that this isn't present on spitzers, and other designs in which the lead core extends throughout the jacket, just hollow points or HPBT designs. Some batches of material are just a tad harder than others, and this sort of fracturing becomes apparent during production. At least one manufacturer goes so far as to anneal these troublesome batches, which reduces (but does not eliminate) these fissures. Most companies will have some threshold at which these become unacceptable and the bullets are rejected. It is, however, generally little more than a cosmetic blemish, and does not affect the accuracy or performance of the bullets. In really extreme cases (and these ARE true rejects), the jackets will crack enough that they don't "form" but instead wrap-around themselves, leaving a very visibly obvious "fold" which extends to the meplat of the ogvie. That's a genuine problem, but anything less shouldn't concern you too much.

Kevin, thank you for the reply. Your comments are along the lines of what I was thinking and although I am not familiar with the process in manufacturing the OTM bullets I was thinking that after the lead is poured in that the open tip is closed down around it which I believe is what you are speaking of when folds occur in some more severe cases. Your feedback is appreciated and I look forward to shooting both of these in the not too distant future.

 

[bdubb]

Thanks for sharing these side-by-side photos.
big meplat on the ScenarL. Its ogives appear shorter than the Hybrid. About the same bearing area and boat tails.
Interesting comps. Still very interested in seeing the BCs of these (as well as the Scenar: 120's... if they are 'optimized 123's' they really could be something nice for us 600yd shooters).

j, if you want to see any other comparison photos of these two bullets, or perhaps just betters ones of the above, let me know. I don't have an issue taking more and sending via e-mail or posting them up in this thread one evening when I have some spare time.

 

[ksthomas]

bdubb,

Quick correction here; the lead isn't "poured in," but is formed in a cold swaging process, dropped into the formed jacket, and then has the ogive closed on top. The Speer "Hot-Core" process is the only one I can think of that used a liquid insertion, and I'm not even sure that's what they did (never worked for Speer, so I can't say from experience there!), but the others are all a cold forming process. When the cores are inserted, the typically fill only about one half to three quarters of the jacket, leaving the top portion of the jacket unsupported from the inside as that ogive is formed. It's the forming of that ogive that actually extrudes the lead core further out into the nose of the jacket, and the lack of internal support is where those fractures/fissures come from. The lube may have a bit to do with it, but it's just a fact of life with virtually any HPBT or HP design. The more work the material has to do to form that ogive, the more likely the fissures are to appear, and the more pronounced they may be. Varies from material lot to material lot. In any case, it doesn't affect their accuracy, and won't cause you any problems on target. And I'm sure that everyone will agree, that's the important thing here.

Glad to help.

 

[jbailey]

j, if you want to see any other comparison photos of these two bullets, or perhaps just betters ones of the above, let me know. I don't have an issue taking more and sending via e-mail or posting them up in this thread one evening when I have some spare time.

Thanks for the offer bdubb, but I'm good with the photos you took above. They illustrate the profiles very nicely. Again, thanks for posting them, they are much appreciated.

 

[popapi]

Mine are the same way as per the creases or stress cracks in the 6.5 hybrids I have, but let me tell you this Mr. Gentleman them jokers shoot ONE hole in my Beanland 6.5x47............................the Scenars are very pretty I may have to try them but really there's no need to.....