Im not looking for opinions im looking for actual groups from as many people as possible. Im asking people to post what there rifle can do and say whether its a custom, AI or just everyday factory rifle. Im not just looking for good groups just as much info as possible.
- Thread starter Bigchaza
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I owned a custom 700 for a while before I sold it and bought a AI AE MK II in .308. The AI is just want I really wanted and I have been extremely happy with it. You will find folks that shoot AI, GAP, APA, or any other custom built their rifles are tack drivers and you do NOT have to baby them. I also have a Rem 700 LTR that I shoot for work and as long as I am doing my part that thing will shoot and it is a factory rifle.
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AI-AE MK3. I removed it from the box, switched my scope, rings and all from the old rifle, slapped on a Harris bipod, used some of the loads made for the old rifle, shot a few rounds at 100 and 300 for zero. A week later, I was hitting a man-sized target at 1000 yds. in a F-T/R match.
Here is my AE MkIII with Bartlein Barrel
Cold Bore in the 1" dot and then the 3/8th inch dots after
15 Shot group from the same set up
My GAP Rifles will do the same, as they all wear the same barrels or at least really good barrels. But this is pretty consistent when you go with Bartlein Barrels. Which are on all of my Accuracy International Rifles as well as lot of my custom ones
Cold Bore in the 1" dot and then the 3/8th inch dots after
15 Shot group from the same set up
My GAP Rifles will do the same, as they all wear the same barrels or at least really good barrels. But this is pretty consistent when you go with Bartlein Barrels. Which are on all of my Accuracy International Rifles as well as lot of my custom ones
i have AI, DTA, a few different flavors of GAP, benchmark they all shoot ragged holes, 80 percent are bartlien barrels, then i've got lothar walther and benchmark obviously. if you put a good barrel on a gun, assembled by a good smith they all shoot well.
I think there is a lot of different catagories that this question needs to be broken down into. For example: the 300 meter championships-look at the Bleiker (high end to be sure) from Switzerland, etc. Actual groups, may be better asked as, actual groups fired in competition. Asking for photos of groups, is like asking what is the biggest fish you ever caught? I'm not saying- even one member of this board would exaggerate, but it may have happened a time or two on other boards. There are some "High end" rifles that are every bit as good, or Better than "custom" guns. Sorry to say, the "higher the end" the better the gun. It is also a fact that the chambering and ammo have a lot to do with it, the 6mmBR has quite an edge in the accuracy department, over a lot of otherwise good rounds. After reading this post, I believe you are trying to boil down the cost vs accuracy, I always hate it when someone want s to compare how great their $ 6,000.00 rifle shoots as compared to a $600.00 gun! Apples to apples, same money (or less) factory gun vs custom gun-they are they only ones that matter when comparing accuracy-fit-trigger pull etc are all up to the customer, what's good for one may not be what the other likes. I think you've asked a really good question, I'd love to see some more discussion on this my self-thanks for the great question!
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Here is 13 consecutive groups from my TRG-22. This is a 100% unmodified factory rifle. They're not cheap, but still can be had for less $$$ than the big name customs with no waiting. The average for all 13 groups was in the .3s. I'm a decent shot, but by no means a pro. A true expert could definitely tighten it up by at least another 1/10th on average. A lot of people say their run of the mill factory rifles will shoot like this all day long, but most are exaggerating. TRGs, AIs and perhaps a few other high end factory rifles will shoot right with the customs.
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What the two above show are typical of what I'd get from my rem 700 PS..had about 1700 round through it before the upgrade. From shot one it always shot very well other than when the barrel would start getting hot, then instead of being a .5MOA rifle, .75-1moa...still very good for a sub 1K factory gun...cold bore shot was always same hole'ish, if I did my part with the load and trigger control. Since I like to shoot a lot, I had the action worked over and a Bartline barrel put in...now it's sub .5 during my normal session.
Accuracy isn't the only thing to consider with the rifle and most rifles are very accurate now days. There is, extreme environment issues, reliability, durability, resale, fit finish etc. All depends on what you want. For me, The extra cost of a AI, Sako, or full custom rig such as GAP isn't worth it as I'll never see the benefit.
First ask yourself what this rifle will be used for...what is the realistic distance you'll shoot--this could determine what cartridge you'll decide on, is the rifle used for weekend plinking, hunting, competition---if so, what competition. Depending on your answer, a Rem 5R may work for you...if you have the money maybe the TRG or AW will be your choice because of the cool factor. I've never cared about the cool factor...always liked out shooting the TRG/AW guys with my factory 700.
Accuracy isn't the only thing to consider with the rifle and most rifles are very accurate now days. There is, extreme environment issues, reliability, durability, resale, fit finish etc. All depends on what you want. For me, The extra cost of a AI, Sako, or full custom rig such as GAP isn't worth it as I'll never see the benefit.
First ask yourself what this rifle will be used for...what is the realistic distance you'll shoot--this could determine what cartridge you'll decide on, is the rifle used for weekend plinking, hunting, competition---if so, what competition. Depending on your answer, a Rem 5R may work for you...if you have the money maybe the TRG or AW will be your choice because of the cool factor. I've never cared about the cool factor...always liked out shooting the TRG/AW guys with my factory 700.
Wow there are somw good shooters on here, thanks everyone for there responses. The reasons why I ask this question is
A) see how tactical rifles compare to br rifles
B) get a measure of how much accuracy you gain per dollars spent ( I fully understand that highend rifles are tougher more reliable and have better ergonomics thats why I buy them)
C) got some customs coming from SAC very excited and want to know what to expect
D) every one gives a 1/2 moa guarantee noone promotes what they can actually do
A) see how tactical rifles compare to br rifles
B) get a measure of how much accuracy you gain per dollars spent ( I fully understand that highend rifles are tougher more reliable and have better ergonomics thats why I buy them)
C) got some customs coming from SAC very excited and want to know what to expect
D) every one gives a 1/2 moa guarantee noone promotes what they can actually do
AIAE MKIII Lothar 1:12 First group is in the dot, never mind the flyer it was shot 15 mins before the group to confirm zero with a totally different ammo. second pic was cold bore zero the second time I took the rifle to the range and has been that way ever since. All my customs have shot well also. Like BigJoe said put a good barrel on by a good smith and it will shoot.
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Manure test .75” circles, rebarreled R700 with Rock creek 308 with 1:11.27 twist
Miss labeled OCW test, factory FN SPR 300 wsm and 190 berger vlds
Remington Tactical 308 with 180 smk OCW test
Same rifle but 168 A-Max @900 and 1000
R700 sps varmint 243
Miss labeled OCW test, factory FN SPR 300 wsm and 190 berger vlds
Remington Tactical 308 with 180 smk OCW test
Same rifle but 168 A-Max @900 and 1000
R700 sps varmint 243
Here is a group I shot at 200 yards that measured just over 5/8 in. with my savage m-10 and Copper Creek ammo. Too bad I pulled that one round, but that just shows what happens when your not focused and forget to follow through on trigger pull. Its only 4 rounds, because I forgot my chains and the bungee strap holding the target decided it had enough.
factory 5r milspec 24" just replace stock,trigger and scope set up..half moa or less? sure she can! shots of group of 5 few are 7 shot(i like to convince myself sometimes) 
factory 5r milspec 24" just replace stock,trigger and scope set up..half moa or less? sure she can! shots of group of 5 few are 7 shot(i like to convince myself sometimes)
How much was the bolt knob swap?
I just finished an OCW test with a rifle from Howard Pitts. He is a local-to-me smith that is not heard about much. Put 5 rounds of 155 AMaxes into under .5" at 100. I said this just to make the point that there are a lot of good gun plumbers out there making rifles that don't have a big following.
More to your question- I like having custom rifles. I have had some stock Remingtons and a heavy Winchester varmint rifle that shot lights out, but there is some pride of ownership, for me anyway, of a custom rifle. They are pricy, but I do not have any ex-wives.
More to your question- I like having custom rifles. I have had some stock Remingtons and a heavy Winchester varmint rifle that shot lights out, but there is some pride of ownership, for me anyway, of a custom rifle. They are pricy, but I do not have any ex-wives.
Phonex done it for 90.00 for parts labor ans shiping back to me..turn around time less than 20 days
There is a lot more to a high end or custom gun than just how accurate they are.
I don't doubt that factory savages and Remingtons can be known to shoot bughole groups.
The difference is that it typically takes a specific hand load to get sub half inch. Custom/high end guns guarantee it with factory match ammo.
Custom and high end rifle actions put factory stock actions to shame. They are more solid, cycle way smoother, and are trued square to the bore line. This includes the scope mount holes.
Custom barrels are cleaner. The bores don't foul nearly as easy and can go hundreds of rounds between cleanings.
Food for thought...
I absolutely agree. My custom tubes when not in an accuracy node still shoot great, often requiring me to shoot at 2-3 hundred yards to really see where the node is. Factory rifles, in my experience, will open way up... moa or larger, making it easy to tell when your outside the node at 100 yards.
I just recently bought a bore scope. What a great tool!
I was able to look at my factory Remington 700 barrels compared to a TRG-22 factory barrel compared to my F-class custom with a Krieger barrel. What a difference! The Remington barrels actually aren't that bad, but there is tool marks throughout the entire barrel and lots of places copper and carbon fouling can cling. The TRG barrel is much smoother, but still no where near as smooth as the Krieger barrel which has an almost mirror finish. No wonder that barrel is a snap to clean.
Their accuracy follows right along with the internal barrel finish. The Remingtons will shoot well (sometimes as good as .3 moa), but they lack consistency. The TRG shoots great and is very consistent. Hard to find a load it won't shoot under .5 MOA and it averages in the .3s. The Krieger barreled rifle shoots consistent .1 to .3 moa, but then again it's a 6 BR, so that gives it an inherent advantage.
I was able to look at my factory Remington 700 barrels compared to a TRG-22 factory barrel compared to my F-class custom with a Krieger barrel. What a difference! The Remington barrels actually aren't that bad, but there is tool marks throughout the entire barrel and lots of places copper and carbon fouling can cling. The TRG barrel is much smoother, but still no where near as smooth as the Krieger barrel which has an almost mirror finish. No wonder that barrel is a snap to clean.
Their accuracy follows right along with the internal barrel finish. The Remingtons will shoot well (sometimes as good as .3 moa), but they lack consistency. The TRG shoots great and is very consistent. Hard to find a load it won't shoot under .5 MOA and it averages in the .3s. The Krieger barreled rifle shoots consistent .1 to .3 moa, but then again it's a 6 BR, so that gives it an inherent advantage.
I am not in agreement with the idea that only custom actions/tubes will deliver top world class performance, in fact I'd ask those not familiar with world class rifles to take a minute and look at rifles (and the records held) such as Bleiker, Gunig Elmiger (their MKBIII match target rifle is really tops), or the Tanner Sportswaffen rifles, all these (and there are more) rifles are built "like a Swiss watches". For those exploring high end guns, there are a lot of fabulous high end guns produced around the world-factory rifles, to think you can only get a get rifle with by buying an action (usually some kind of 700 clone) that is "true" or having a 700 action "trued", then adding an after market tube, trigger etc, is wrong. Yes, that will often give you a great shooter, but there is a cornucopia of high end- world class rifles that come complete from a factory. TRG's and AI's are well known examples, but there are a lot more guns makers out there-usually only seen in world class comps. and seldom reported on by any of the gun mags, as these guys don't buy ads in their pubs.
I pulled this off AccurateShooter.com, regarding 6mmNorma-Sig Factory rifles in real world-measured group-comp:
"""The 6mm BR is one of the most accurate cartridges in existence, bettered only by the 6 PPC and 22 PPC. A well-built rifle with a match-grade barrel should deliver consistent 5-shot groups in the 2s at 100 yards with flat-based bullets. If you get lucky, perhaps it will group in the 1s. European shooters firing Norma 6mm BR loaded ammo in Sauer factory target guns report .3 moa accuracy at 300m. 600-yard match shooters are getting sub 3″ aggregates in real world conditions, shooting 100gr bullets in 1:8 twist barrels.""""
Not bad for a Factory gun! I wonder how well they would have been able to do if they would have pieced together a "custom"? BTW-FACTORY AMMO!!
I pulled this off AccurateShooter.com, regarding 6mmNorma-Sig Factory rifles in real world-measured group-comp:
"""The 6mm BR is one of the most accurate cartridges in existence, bettered only by the 6 PPC and 22 PPC. A well-built rifle with a match-grade barrel should deliver consistent 5-shot groups in the 2s at 100 yards with flat-based bullets. If you get lucky, perhaps it will group in the 1s. European shooters firing Norma 6mm BR loaded ammo in Sauer factory target guns report .3 moa accuracy at 300m. 600-yard match shooters are getting sub 3″ aggregates in real world conditions, shooting 100gr bullets in 1:8 twist barrels.""""
Not bad for a Factory gun! I wonder how well they would have been able to do if they would have pieced together a "custom"? BTW-FACTORY AMMO!!
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First distinguish between, accuracy and repeatability.
The rifles you speak of are target rifles, not tactical, for one. For another, my post indicated that savage and Remington are what is considered basic, common, buy at local sporting goods factory rifles. I have never, ever seen a bleiker anything on the shelves of any gun shop or sporting goods store
Sako, Steyr, AI, Barret, etc. are considered high end factory rifles. I'll assume the rifles you mentioned are as well, and can't be bought at Walmart for a grand or less. Of course high end factory rifles are smooth cycling and accurate. They should be. You're paying for them to be.
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For simplification, repeatability is this . . . you lock your action down in a vise that is completely immobile. All other things being equal, such as DA, wind, you farted, etc. . . . you shoot a 10 round shot group. The repeatability of the round/barrel is determined without the influence of any human input. Now, having said that, a rifle will, because of its iherent dynamic performance, when discharged, will act differently given different holding situations. So, now, we've thrown out certain "givens".
ACCURACY is the determination that your intended point of impact is identical to your point of aim. What one has to do is to develop the best association of the two.
When your repeatability, given your constraints of shot group, fall within your acceptable distance from your desired point of impact, then . . . .
ACCURACY is the determination that your intended point of impact is identical to your point of aim. What one has to do is to develop the best association of the two.
When your repeatability, given your constraints of shot group, fall within your acceptable distance from your desired point of impact, then . . . .
I stand corrected, I didn't realize the parameters of the question, I didn't realize the "high end" factory rifles had to be $1,000.00 or less, and that they were to be carried by Wal Mart. I must admit, I didn't realize a 700 Remington was a tactical rifle, as purchased from walmart, again my misunderstanding. I thought, the question was regarding High End factory guns as compared to Custom guns, based on that I considered High End factory guns. So far as you never seeing a Bleiker on the shelves of any gun shop or sporting goods store, my I suggest you shop at Higher End stores, you may be lucky enough to run up on one. Regarding Sako sporting rifles, not the trg series, these are fine rifles to be sure, but I would not call them High End, any more than many of the Steyr rifles, a new Mod 70 in wood costs as much or more than some of their offerings, and as much as I like a Mod 70-I would not call those High End guns. But just to recap, I stand corrected, I thought the string was High End Factory guns, vs Custom guns. You may wan to look a SIG Tactical 2 rifle, man it even has tactical in it's name, it is what can be called a high end factory rifle.
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I agree 100% with bodywerks ... thats the difference in a nutshell. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Sako TRG, Accuracy International, DTA, Blaser, just to name a few rifles that are capable of consistent 1/2 moa accuracy and offer outstanding reliability. I have owned many AI rifles, have a TRG 22 on the way, but mainly shoot custom rifles with custom chambers, this has its obvious advantages, but it also has its disadvantages. I have a custom 243 that will shoot one hole if I can hold it, but it will not shoot factory loads due to a custom cut chamber, so its not a apples to apples comparison. Most custom rifles will guarantee 1/2" and they will usually do it all day long, you can find a factory rifle to shoot this well with match grade ammo or handloads, but you won't generally see this kind of consistency from rifle to rifle. Another feature of a custom rifle is it can be built to suit your needs, but you will need to wait.
I wouldn't think twice about purchasing a AI or TRG or DTA if I was in the market for a more traditional caliber, TRG being available in 308/260 but AI and DTA are starting to offer a better selection of off the shelf calibers. With a DTA, you have the ability to buy a factory rifle, but later purchase custom barrels in some of the latest and greatest chamberings. With a AI, TRG and DTA (again, I'm not naming ALL of the quality factory rifles) you are getting match grade rifles with very strict quality manufacturing that you just don't find with most all "factory" rifles.
I wouldn't think twice about purchasing a AI or TRG or DTA if I was in the market for a more traditional caliber, TRG being available in 308/260 but AI and DTA are starting to offer a better selection of off the shelf calibers. With a DTA, you have the ability to buy a factory rifle, but later purchase custom barrels in some of the latest and greatest chamberings. With a AI, TRG and DTA (again, I'm not naming ALL of the quality factory rifles) you are getting match grade rifles with very strict quality manufacturing that you just don't find with most all "factory" rifles.
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Let me rephrase a little. "tactical" was quite a generic term for me to throw out. But this is a website for the "tactical marksman", not the Olympic shooter. Hunters employ tactical marksmanship as well, so a hunting rifle is more closely related to a tactical rifle than a bright blue, chrome, and peep hole sight target gun.
I just found your suggestion to compare hunting/tactical type rifles to the likes of that bleiker a bit out of place on this forum. If this were a Benchrest or f-class forum i could see it having its place. I mean no disrespect, those rifles are impressive I'm sure - I'd love to shoot one - but i bet if you searched the word "bleiker" on this entire forum this would be the only thread result.
I wish i lived where you did. There is only one shop in Tucson that Carries high end factory rifles, but they are usually Barret or Sako trg, maybe a Les baer or kimber 8400 tactical here and there.
I'm sorry to hear Jensens Custom Ammo, out on Pima, is either gone or not carrying high end weapons, it's been a long time for me, but I remember when Bob Jensen won the Wimbledon-in those days the store (if it is there anymore) not only was one of the best, and highest volume stores in the U.S., but Bob carried an assortment of fine weapons. If you had taken a moment to look at the Grunig Elmiger MKB III rifle for example, I believe you would realize that not all high end mfgs. make only bright blue, chrome and peep hole sight target guns! Or the SIG Tactical2, and the list can go on. Remember, I said I stood corrected! I was under the wrong impression that the string was comparing high end rifles to custom rigs, you set me straight, 1000 max and had to be carried by wall mart, what more do you want? I thought this was about High End guns. Now you tell allude to the new requirement, you've added they have to be for sale in Tucson AZ, in a shop on the shelf! Hell, if I'd known all those requirements I wouldn't have even joined into the conversation, as living in Memphis, TN, there is no way for me to know what kind of guns are on the shelf in the stores in Tucson-or which shops you go to. I stood corrected, I will do so again.
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Done with your condescending smart ass attitude. Later...
this is exactly what im trying to look for. If we can get enough repeatability we will start to see some patterns here. Im trying to get as many guns and as many groups together to see how tactical rifles perform on paper. its just a curiosity i have ATM and i would love to see as many results as i can get. i think its been really interesting so far.
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With a few clicks of scope adjustment, repeatability becomes accuracy.
Joe
Joe
I'll point to one example to prove your statement incorrect, Tac Ops.
How does the action know whether its a factory round or not? The barrel decides what it shoots, not the action.
When feeding from a magazine, it makes no difference whether its a Surgeon, Defiance or Remington. Yes, the high dollar actions are supposed to be true when you get them but any smith who is not checking them is not doing the job they should be doing, they may not say so publicly, but it is a fact. Where the difference in actions lies is single loading and the lock time. The man on the line with a Panda will shoot faster than the man beside him with a Remington and thus will have a better agg. at the end of the year. (Last statement is benchrest related I know).
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