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Favorite powder for 6.5 Grendel

svxwilson

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  • Feb 23, 2013
    617
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    Montana
    I just got my 6.5 Grendel, it has a 24" barrel with a 1/8 twist. I will be shooting mostly 123gr Amax. I may eventually find some lighter bullets but I bought the long barrel for maximum distance capabilities. Any experience with the 140gr Amax? Is it to heavy to get any reasonable fps out of it?

    I have Varget, and VV N-140. I know I can use these but I don't know if it is ideal?

    Suggestions and recommendations?
     
    I also have a 24" barrel and I have been told by many that Varget is to slow! If you look at Alexander's load data they do show Varget as an option on the heavies. I think the Berger vld's 130grn ran around 2400fps. I have heard rumor of people getting that bullet to 2700fps but I assure you it wasn't Varget. I have had excellent results with xbr8208 , I can run 123grn bullets 2600+/-. I have just recently started playing with Leverevolution, a lot of people say it behaves like cfe223 which is a loaders favorite but I think its "Bigfoot" . Maybe one day I will see a can and then I can try for my self. Please post your results as I am always in learning mode. Good luck!
     
    I use H322 with 123sst and in my 20' barrel it worked great to 900 yds. I was not getting the velocity that I wanted. However that don't mean much because I have serious short chambering issues
     
    I use H322 with 123sst and in my 20' barrel it worked great to 900 yds. I was not getting the velocity that I wanted. However that don't mean much because I have serious short chambering issues

    If you mean short-stroking, it's likely because the burn rate of H322 is too fast for the application. A slower-burning powder might solve your issues.

    Because of accuracy, velocity or both? Where do you figure the burn rate in relation to 8208 and CFE?

    AR-Comp has been the most accurate in the dozen or so barrels (and powders) that I've used. Velocity is respectable, but not the best.

    This might seem odd, but my perception is that AR-C's burn rate is slower than 8208, but in the Grendel case, its max charge is slightly less than 8208. A weapon is less likely to short-stroke with AR-C, and recoil is drawn out into more of a push. 8208 seems to have somewhat of a fine line between safe and excessively hot loads.

    Using 123gr bullets, 27.7gr of AR-C or 8208 often works very well. AR-C will usually be more accurate, and 8208 will yield slightly more speed.

    CFE-223 (and Leverevolution) is the velocity king in the Grendel, but at the expense of temp sensitivity. With max loads, it's unmistakably harder on the weapon if tuned for other powders. Burn rate is quite slow compared to AR-C and 8208. (Uses ~3+ grains more powder.)

    AR-Comp has also been very accurate for me in 223 with 69gr bullets, and in 260 with 123gr.

    Examples of AR-Comp (w/ 123gr) that I have pics of include 5- and 10-shot groups at 100 yards using a Satern barrel:





    And here's the Satern-tailored load used in a Shilen:



    To put my experience in perspective, I'm probably approaching ~10k rounds total of Grendel fired (nearly 6k in one barrel), have used ~1 dozen barrels, and have burned ~25 lbs of AR-Comp.
     
    W748 and 2520 are my favorite powders. I have stuck with the 123 grain bullets for my Grendels. I haven't tried 8208, but it would be a good bet. The W748 is temperature sensitive, and DOES effect velocity.

    I have also had good success with X-terminator and Tac. My 2520 and W748 loads shoot to the same POI.

    I use 120/123 grain bullets, and have not tried anything heavier.
     
    Last edited:
    Drifter001,

    That's good you are keeping such tabs on what you do with the Grendel. I've certainly had my share of frustration.

    This may seem totally odd, but what I ended up doing with my last Grendel, a 24" Satern barrel, was 29 gr. of 8208, with the bullet pushed way back off the lands. Obviously you need a depth tolerant bullet. Berger VLD types don't work so well with that. Lapua, Sierra SMK's and Hornady A-max's did. Norma 130 GT's worked well too.

    So, what I found with about 3k rounds downrange. The 6.5 G has about 20% more case capacity than a 5.56, which the rifle's gas system was designed around. The rifle never had the gas system adjusted for that. It becomes really evident when you load temp intolerant powders like AA2520. I got the best velocity out of it (until I tried 8208), but I had to work loads up for summer and winter in Minnesota. Summer loads were trashing brass in the cold Minnesota winters. WTH?? What I found was the temp sensitive powder that didn't burn fast enough was burning too far down the barrel, and put too much pressure back through the gas system. The high pressure pushed early on the BC trying to unlock the bolt. Resultant swipe was from too low of an initial pressure with too slow of a powder. So, I stepped up the load, and in Winter it worked great. Come summertime, the load was too hot.

    So, I opted for a faster powder. I was trying to find something about the speed/pressure as AA2520. H4895 was too fast. But, it wasn't temp sensitive. I didn't have the same problem as AA2520, but I couldn't get 123's moving faster than 2500. Someone explained to me about 8208 being made somewhat like Re-17 in that the burn retardant is integral and a lot more predictable. Noting that it was faster than H4895, I gave it a try anyways. It became my go-to load.

    One of my biggest problems with the Grendel is the throats of almost every variation are for accuracy. No one cuts a freebore throat, like in 5.56 (vs. .223) or 6.8 SPC II chambers. That freebore, with minimal loss of accuracy, gets a pretty healthy gain in velocity and, I believe, safety. Safety, because some loads given vary so much in different temps, that they cause issues.

    One other thing you can do is get an adjustable gas block. Shut it down completely. Then work up loads to your satisfaction in your rifle with whatever powder you choose, i.e. run ladders for all bullets and powders you like. While manually cycling each round. Pick one load that give you what you want. Next, open the gas block in small increments until your rifle cycles satisfactorily. If you change loads, close the gas block and open until rifle cycles. Remember, each load's powder speed/pressure is going to act differently.
     
    Last edited:
    I have a 20" Satern bbl. on one I put together myself. It's worth .33MOA at 100y and kind of my favorite rifle. 1/8.75 twist so it's optimized for 123 gr. ballistic tips I believe, handles 120's well and has shot the tightest groups using 120gr. Nosler BT's and 100gr. AMAX (of all bullets), both times .33". Never can get SMK's to work like they do in other calibers. For 1/8 twist, a lot of the 120 gr. plastic tip bullets should be ideal (using the basic twist rate formula on Wikipedia). I have had recent good luck with the Nosler BT and Bill A. said he really liked the 120 gr. Berger (Match Tactical I think) the last time I talked to him, though I haven't tried it yet.

    As for powder, I've typically been using AA2520 and BL-C(2). I still mostly use the AA load data, along with some specific data from component manufacturers. I think I tried Varget a long time ago and didn't get results with it like I got in other calibers, a lot like the SMK. That combo works GREAT in 7.62 btw, and okay in 5.56, but NOT so great in 6.5G, IME. I think I have some VV in there too, but I haven't tried it yet, not in the Grendel anyway.

    My best load using what I currently have available (I need more components!) is the 120 gr. Nosler BT, either 31.4 gr. BL-C(2) or 30.3 gr. AA2520, CCI military primers and my own once fired AA/Lapua brass (AA brass IS Lapua brass) individually loaded to 2.250" on Forster Mic. Dies and a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I haven't worked out the length on it yet, but I think I hit the sweet spot as I can't see it doing much better as it shot as tight as usual.

    Whatever you load, you want to be able to load it as long as possible when you tweak your load and still have it feed, chamber, eject --well cycle, etc. correctly. Not get stuck on the rifling, not too long for magazine. It makes a difference on any rifle, but (on my Grendel anyway) it's made the most difference out of any AR I've ever shot. Those custom loads are what enables this rifle to shoot sub-MOA consistently. Good luck, the Grendel sure is fun and it's the handloader's high performance AR for sure!
     
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    I just got my 6.5 Grendel, it has a 24" barrel with a 1/8 twist. I will be shooting mostly 123gr Amax. I may eventually find some lighter bullets but I bought the long barrel for maximum distance capabilities. Any experience with the 140gr Amax? Is it to heavy to get any reasonable fps out of it?

    I have Varget, and VV N-140. I know I can use these but I don't know if it is ideal?

    Suggestions and recommendations?

    Rifling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Go down to "Twist Rate and Bullet Stability". This is how I do it. Use your caliper, calculator or computer and the formula. If you want to use it for solid copper bullets, just look up the specific gravity of pure copper and use that instead of the SG given (in which case you'll have to use the second half of the equation for all but lead core/copper jackets). Treat the plastic tips on ballistic tip bullets as whatever the rest of the bullet is made of (jacketed, solid, etc.) when you measure it.

    You can use that formula to match the bullet to the barrel, but you can also use the formula to figure out which bullet length is optimum in the first place, considering its composition, by setting twist equal to 8 and solving for the length of the bullet instead. Then take the calipers to the store or look online for info to buy bullets that have the optimum length, and thus the optimum twist, for your barrel.

    I heard a lot of the heavier bullets just don't work well in the Grendel at really long range because the initial velocity just isn't there for it despite the BC. That they're more appropriate for 6.5 Lapua, .260 Remington, etc. I could be wrong though, I haven't tried it personally, it's been all 100-123's with a focus on 120's for me lately. Again, look at the AA data for the 6.5G.
     
    Because of the throat issue, and a difference in chamber lengths that I felt overworked my brass (2 different chamber lengths), I sent both my Grendel uppers off to have the chambers matched up. They came back within .0015 of an inch of each other, much closer than before, and both rifles now have a standard "match" chamber as in the 264 LBC. Previously, I had two different types of chamber/throats. Now that they match, it is MUCH easier to get loads that both rifles like, and I'm not overworking my brass.
     
    I've been working with CFE for a while now, and it has enabled me to get the same velocity as the Hornady 123gr A-MAX factory load, which averages 2460fps from my 16" Grendel.

    The guy who really got me interested in CFE223 did a ton of testing with it, even pushing 130gr Norma GT's up to 2700fps from his 24" J&T upper, but he was using various types of 7.62x39 brass with more case capacity I think, and also uses a modified polymer magazine that allows long loading with his COL, because the 2700fps loads were over 2.300". He posted pics of all his brass, chrono printouts, and groups together, with some 10-shot groups that were consistently 1/2" or better, which is amazing for a button-rifled pipe from J&T. Those 10-shot groups might have been with the 142gr SMK, but I would have to check the thread again.

    Hornady's 9th Edition shows the best velocity with the 123gr A-MAX from an 18" AR15 using CFE, at 2500fps. Their 8th Edition only had 14.5" data, which was strange. My 16" pushing the 123gr at 2460fps kept me supersonic out to 1318 yards at 4400ft ASL in 81 degree temps, with almost no humidity. I was able to rapidly send 4 rounds onto a target at 1200yds after my first register, which was barely off the lower left edge. There was no wind at that time in the day, because we were holding .5 to 1 mil into the wind earlier when shooting at 500yds.
     
    does anyone have reloading data for the 123 gr amax and xbr8208, what was the max charge for your combo?

    Thanks
     
    My current 'go to' load is 31.7 CFE/CCI 41/123 Nosler CC loaded to max length that will chamber properly in 3 barrels. The CC's are readily available for a very good price from Shooter's Pro Shop and though edged out by same charge under 123 Hornady SST's, the SST's have been scarce, so the Noslers get the nod till supply side issues abate. Getting 2550 in 20" Bartlein with long freebore and 2650 in 24" Satern with std chamber dimensions. Have also had good results with TAC and lighter bullets and 8208 with full weight range. Have found Grendel pretty forgiving in most circumstances.
     
    I tried a few different powders over the years but I settled on TAC or H335 as they both meter great in my dillon 1050 powder measure thingy.
     
    how much AR-C are you using?

    If you mean short-stroking, it's likely because the burn rate of H322 is too fast for the application. A slower-burning powder might solve your issues.



    AR-Comp has been the most accurate in the dozen or so barrels (and powders) that I've used. Velocity is respectable, but not the best.

    This might seem odd, but my perception is that AR-C's burn rate is slower than 8208, but in the Grendel case, its max charge is slightly less than 8208. A weapon is less likely to short-stroke with AR-C, and recoil is drawn out into more of a push. 8208 seems to have somewhat of a fine line between safe and excessively hot loads.

    Using 123gr bullets, 27.7gr of AR-C or 8208 often works very well. AR-C will usually be more accurate, and 8208 will yield slightly more speed.

    CFE-223 (and Leverevolution) is the velocity king in the Grendel, but at the expense of temp sensitivity. With max loads, it's unmistakably harder on the weapon if tuned for other powders. Burn rate is quite slow compared to AR-C and 8208. (Uses ~3+ grains more powder.)

    AR-Comp has also been very accurate for me in 223 with 69gr bullets, and in 260 with 123gr.

    Examples of AR-Comp (w/ 123gr) that I have pics of include 5- and 10-shot groups at 100 yards using a Satern barrel:





    And here's the Satern-tailored load used in a Shilen:



    To put my experience in perspective, I'm probably approaching ~10k rounds total of Grendel fired (nearly 6k in one barrel), have used ~1 dozen barrels, and have burned ~25 lbs of AR-Comp.

    How many grains are you using and what is your OAL? I have a 24" Shilen barrel from AA and am in the process of working up loads now
     
    How many grains are you using and what is your OAL? I have a 24" Shilen barrel from AA and am in the process of working up loads now

    27.7gr of AR-Comp with 123gr A-max in Hornady or Lapua brass. My COL is usually ~2.250 (which is close to Hornady factory ammo). My Shilen could accept (and possibly benefit from) a slightly longer length, but I fed it what was loaded for another barrel. It's best to determine max COL in each individual chamber. The 123gr A-max seems to perform best ~0.015 off the lands in the Grendel chamber, but will often shoot well with larger jumps.
     
    does anyone have reloading data for the 123 gr amax and xbr8208, what was the max charge for your combo?

    Thanks

    123gr A-MAX with 8208 XBR
    Case: Lapua
    Start load: 26.0grs
    Max load: 28.5gr
    COL: 2.260" (Grendel SAAMI Chamber)
    Primer: CCI 450

    8208 XBR will spike on you if you go over the max load. It's a great powder because of temp stability, being a fine extruded kernel shape.
     
    Take a look at 6.5 Grendel forum. Those guys have a reloading guide especially for grendel, gets great reviews from Grendel shooters. Gotta get off my ass and order one for myself.
     
    Varget results

    Only had my 24" AA OVERWATCH out 3 times. I started off using Varget because that is all I had. I now have 1 lb AA2520 and 8 lbs of IMR 8208. The photo is my 2nd time out.
    On my 3rd time out I used my chrongraph and averaged 2745 FPS with CCI450 primers.

    My main objective is 600 to 1000 yds and I expect the AA2520 or my IMR 8208 will do the trick.

    I live in central Florida (sea level and pretty average temps all year round)

    The hornady AMAX 123 is all I shoot and it works.

    I have also since that photo was taken mounted a VORTEX PST 6 x 24 x 50 with an AADMOUNT

    Hope this helps
     

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    Lets bring this thread back in life.. i loaded 50rds 28.5 xbr8208 123amax seated 2.250 shot it 26" satern 1:8.75 twist.. after shooting about 30rds i noticed bolt to carried very dirty after shooting all 50 i pull carrier out and bolt very tight a lot of carbon build up..this on rifle gas.. why is this happening?
     
    benchmark, imr 3031, aa2015
    blc2, aa2230
    h355, w748
    8208xrb, h4895
    fast to slow
     
    Drifter001,

    That's good you are keeping such tabs on what you do with the Grendel. I've certainly had my share of frustration.

    This may seem totally odd, but what I ended up doing with my last Grendel, a 24" Satern barrel, was 29 gr. of 8208, with the bullet pushed way back off the lands. Obviously you need a depth tolerant bullet. Berger VLD types don't work so well with that. Lapua, Sierra SMK's and Hornady A-max's did. Norma 130 GT's worked well too.

    So, what I found with about 3k rounds downrange. The 6.5 G has about 20% more case capacity than a 5.56, which the rifle's gas system was designed around. The rifle never had the gas system adjusted for that. It becomes really evident when you load temp intolerant powders like AA2520. I got the best velocity out of it (until I tried 8208), but I had to work loads up for summer and winter in Minnesota. Summer loads were trashing brass in the cold Minnesota winters. WTH?? What I found was the temp sensitive powder that didn't burn fast enough was burning too far down the barrel, and put too much pressure back through the gas system. The high pressure pushed early on the BC trying to unlock the bolt. Resultant swipe was from too low of an initial pressure with too slow of a powder. So, I stepped up the load, and in Winter it worked great. Come summertime, the load was too hot.

    So, I opted for a faster powder. I was trying to find something about the speed/pressure as AA2520. H4895 was too fast. But, it wasn't temp sensitive. I didn't have the same problem as AA2520, but I couldn't get 123's moving faster than 2500. Someone explained to me about 8208 being made somewhat like Re-17 in that the burn retardant is integral and a lot more predictable. Noting that it was faster than H4895, I gave it a try anyways. It became my go-to load.

    One of my biggest problems with the Grendel is the throats of almost every variation are for accuracy. No one cuts a freebore throat, like in 5.56 (vs. .223) or 6.8 SPC II chambers. That freebore, with minimal loss of accuracy, gets a pretty healthy gain in velocity and, I believe, safety. Safety, because some loads given vary so much in different temps, that they cause issues.

    One other thing you can do is get an adjustable gas block. Shut it down completely. Then work up loads to your satisfaction in your rifle with whatever powder you choose, i.e. run ladders for all bullets and powders you like. While manually cycling each round. Pick one load that give you what you want. Next, open the gas block in small increments until your rifle cycles satisfactorily. If you change loads, close the gas block and open until rifle cycles. Remember, each load's powder speed/pressure is going to act differently.

    This post completely nailed it. The Grendel II addresses this issue you outlined.
     
    dakarhunter = XCR

    Any questions?

    XCR, you should find another hobby/interest. This one isn't for you.

    There were $11,000 in reamers when developing what became the 6.5 Grendel. This nonsense about another chamber design is total BS. Arne Brennan has his own chamber that he wanted which never became the SAAMI chamber.

    Your mission as a useful idiot for Dave Kiff, Satern, et. al is pretty transparent. The fact that you braggged about fraud being perpetrated on the Lilja group buy members, and that you knew about it well in advance doesn't do well for you in legal terms.
     
    What the hell are you talking about? These rumors your spreading are going to get you in serious legal trouble if you don't stop.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Not from me of course but he can't say he wasn't warned.

    I don't think rumors means what you think it means.

    Referencing someone publishing something on the world wide web isn't a rumor. There's facts to back it up.

    Ohh and the one that could potentially have legal problems is the guy that published online that he talked to Dave Kiff and supposedly was told that he had been intentionally delivering out of spec Grendel reamers.
     
    11 k in reamers for development of the Grendel ??

    I find TAC behind Nosler 120 is a supremely accurate and excellent hunting load in all of my Grendels.
     
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    11 k in reamers for development of the Grendel ??

    I find TAC behind Nosler 120 is a supremely accurate and excellent hunting load in all of my Grendels.
    Know the history behind the group buys and the Grendel II chamber? ...
     
    Favorite powder for 6.5 Grendel

    Know the history behind the group buys and the Grendel II chamber? ...

    Grendel II chamber was developed by Arne Brennan and Bill Alexander in 2003 and announced at Shot in January in 2004. At the time it was simply called the 6.5 Grendel. With Satern and other barrel makers suffering from the bullet stuck syndrome common with the compound throat and after a call from Steve Satern PTG dusted off the old print for the original Grendel and called it the Grendel II. In other words the Grendel II is Orginal Grendel (OG). That fixed the problem and so far seems to shot with higher velocities. At least with my hand loads. Factory SST is about the same at 2624fps. The 65 Grendel forum reacted with shrill screams of foul play forwarding the false story that Satern had a bad reamer and was covering up for that and it was some kind of evil plot between Steve Satern and Dave Kiff. In a hilarious twist of fate it turned out there own barrel buy of lilja barrels were "out of spec"with a custom throat they ordered adding to the conspiracy hysteria. They of course I'm sure received just what they ordered everyone now wants to avoid the stuck bullet syndrome that has been reported on JT barrels, Alexander Arms barrels, Liberty barrels, McGowan an others when using the "in spec" throat. Of course the problem is never the spec it's those bad reamers everyone seems to be getting (conspiracy). Paul (LRRPF52) and his spin machine have had a rough couple months trying to put the blame anywhere and on anyone but the obvious "spec". Barel manufactures are trapped if they use a "in spec" throat they could have stuck bullets and angry customers but if they change the throat they have offended the "Grendel Cult". Precision Arms has lengthed there throat to avoid the stuck bullet syndrom but kept the compound throat which seems to have satified the cult." Poor Lilja just wanted happy customers but stepped in it.
     
    Last edited:
    I'm intimately familiar with the Grendel, from Dr. Palmisano's 6.5 PPC up to and through the current 6.5 Grendel 2 Chamber offerings. Just curious where that 11k Reamer development number came from. First I heard of that aspect of it.
    Not familiar at all with SH Group buy, been out of service on the worldwide web for sometime with work and travel.
     
    I am in the process of building a Grendel
    and will collect any data possible:D
    Well use the 123 AMAX or SST bullets. I like the 120 SMK as well. Go to the Grendel Forum. Lots of good info there. Good powder is XBR and CFE223. Some have good results with Lever Revolution