Long Range M1A/M14 loads (600 yds +)

[cacoltguy]

Most of us know that there are better platforms out there for shooting a .308 bullet out past 600 yards but I like the challenge. There is already lots of info out there for loads out to 600 yards thanks to the Highpower shooting community. I was hoping to see examples of what others are using to push the limits of this rifle out to 1000 yards. I recently gave this a try so I'll give my story. Rifle is a Springfield M1A National Match version unmodified from the factory with the exception of mounting a scope.



I decided to go with Lake City Brass (2013 variety) 175 gr. Sierra Matchkings and IMR 4064 powder. During load testing I came up with 41 grains of 4064 as my best group. Average velocity was 2606 fps. at sea level (84 deg. F.) IMR 4064 is considered by some to be the slowest burning powder that can be used safely with an M1A. Working up loads to shoot 175 grain bullets long range must be done safely (start low work up gradually) While this is true of any load workup it is especially important with an M1A to avoid damaging the gas system/op-rod of your rifle.

5 shot group size with the one flyer (Hey it happens) was a little over 1.5 MOA . Excluding the flyer was a little under 1 MOA.



Overall I was pretty pleased with this so I loaded them up and went to the long distance range.



I did some shooting out to 600 yards with some 168 gr loads I already worked up and then went back to 800. This was my 5 shot group at 800 yards on an NRA long range target with the 175 gr SMK's and 41 gr. IMR 4064. I was shooting prone with front and rear sand bags.



roughly 19 inches at 800 yards (about 2.25 MOA). I know its not exactly record setting by any means but I'm somewhat satisfied with this coming out of a semi-auto battle rifle designed in the 1950's. Hey 19 inches is roughly shoulder width with so not terrible I suppose. I know it can be improved with some more consistent shooting skill. I was having a hell of a time establishing a good cheek weld with the high mount Basset scope mount and crummy black hawk lace-on cheek piece.

Anyway hope to hear of what others are going with load-wise to shoot the M1A long range.

 

[Sigma05]

Two things that should help. First is to get a Schuster plug. Not the adjustable one, but the one with a pinhole at the end. It's the one approved for service rifle matches. You can get the adjustable one too, but I found it a nightmare to adjust. The pinhole one comes adjusted for the 175-180 grain range and works flawlessly.

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Schuster_M14-M1A_Gas_Plug.html

Second. When using a front sandbag, put it as close to the mag as possible. The thing that makes M1As complicated to shoot accurately, is that it needs to be "tuned" like a musical instrument. Everything affects its accuracy since it has so many moving parts. One of the things that affects accuracy is the barrel/gas block movement in the stock. To keep it consistent, you want to keep the sandbag/rest away from the front portion of the stock. One thing that helps improve the barrel always returning to the same position, is adding grease between the stock ferrule and the barrel band lip. That's the small little "U" shaped piece that rests on the metal end piece on the stock.

"Ex Umbris Venimus"

 

[cacoltguy]

Good info Sigma thanks. I never paid much attention to lubricating between the stock ferrule and bottom band lip. Makes perfect sense though. Ive researched the numerous gas plug options out there, including the schuster. Might give it a try at a later date.

 

[kraigWY]

I've been shooting the M1A in high power a long time (since '77), got my distinguished badge with it. Contrary what people say, it shoots and shoots well past 600 yards. My best ever 1000 yard scores were fired with the M1A or M14 if I was using a Guard Rifle. We used 168 SMKs to 600, beyond that we used the older 180 SMKs until they were replaced with the 175 SMKs. (the older 180s aren't the same as the 180s they have now). Other then the bullet, nothing in the load was changed.

The go to load for this is 41.5 gr of 4895, fed match primers, LC match brass or Winchester Brass.

That's the small little "U" shaped piece that rests on the metal end piece on the stock.

That little U shaped isn't suppose to rest on the metal, if the gun is put together right it wont. The barrel/gas system is free floated. You should be able to grip that portion of the stock, squeeze it, and it should spring in toward the barrel them spring back out when you release it. IT DOESN'T TOUCH THE BARREL/GAS SYSTEM.

You should be able to side a piece of card stock between the stock and band which is welded (brazed) to the gas system with no effort.

I agree if using sand bags they should be moved back toward the magazine, Not touching it, as that's the heaviest piece of the fore arm. Though I seldom used any bags except when I went to sniper school using the M21. Even then I found I shot better using a sling in a good tight position.

 

[Sigma05]

That little U shaped isn't suppose to rest on the metal, if the gun is put together right it wont. The barrel/gas system is free floated. You should be able to grip that portion of the stock, squeeze it, and it should spring in toward the barrel them spring back out when you release it. IT DOESN'T TOUCH THE BARREL/GAS SYSTEM.

I don't want to start a debate here since there so many different opinions on accurrizing an M1A. What you say was true back then. Over time the marksmanship team gunsmiths found they got better and more consistent grouping, by forcing the barrel back into a specific position of rest. Hence why they now have the barrel band resting on the ferrule. M1A/M14 gunsmiths of today bed the rifles so that when you lock down the the trigger group, it requires some force since it's creating tension on the front of the stock. All national match and super match rifles come this way from the custom shops. So much is this important, that the JAE stock for the M1A/M14 have a barrel tension screw so you can tune the specific tension. You are correct in saying that the barrel and gas block should not touch the rest of the stock. That is why national match rifles have additional relieving in the stocks around the gas block, so that during cycling it never touches. Only the barrel band "U" at the bottom touches the ferrule. To confirm this all you have to do is go on the M14 forums and ask the professional gunsmiths on there. I learned it from them. I'm far from a M1A pro. I just learned from real shooting team gunsmiths that truly know these rifles better than most.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

 

[cacoltguy]

I've done some research on what the Marines and AMU tinkered with regarding M14 accuracy and it does seem to change throughout the years. One thing that comes to mind is the National Match grooved piston that was tried and abandoned by the Marine Corp in the early 70's. For what its worth, the barrel band does make firm contact against the stock ferrule on the my NM version as it came from Springfield Armory. I am not able to slide a piece of paper between the two.

Thanks for the info Kraig. I too first started shooting High Power with this rifle, although it was only last year and needless to say I don't have anywhere near the credentials you have, so your input is appreciated. I mostly shoot my M16 A2 however and recently got my Expert card. My goal will be to shoot Master next year. I also have a copy of the "The Highpower Shooting Primer" and I suppose this book got me interested in shooting this rifle past 600 yards. I'm sure it can do well as you say or else I wouldn't bother. It just takes more work and "know how" to get there. The use of sand bags was just for load testing. I plan on shooting this rifle sling supported.

Any thoughts on the differences of using IMR 4064 vs. 4895 to push a 175 grain SMK long range? I went with the 4064 in this "quest" because I was under the impression that the slower burn rate gave a slight advantage with heavier bullets while still remaining safe to use in an M1A.

 

[ksthomas]

cacoltguy,

You're already at the outer limits of what you want to be doing with the M1A, in terms of both bullet weight and powder speed. The original IMR 4064 has been one of the "go-to" powders for the M14 NM rifles since the things were first developed, and I really can't say that anything newer is actually better. But, this is about as slow as you want to go, in terms of burning rate.

As to the bullet weights, the 180 is about as heavy as you'll want to go here, lest you start tearing up the rifle. Trust me, you don't need that. The good news is, there's plenty of good choices here that will work very well out to the 1,000 yard mark in an M14, so long as she's tuned right. The 175 SMK, several of Berger's bullets in the same range, and we've even got a new 175 Scenar L that looks like an ideal fit for this combination that just came out. The old original 180 SMK used to be the standard for this use, but since they changed the BT angle some years back, that ruined the bullet for any sort of Long Range applications. Now it's just suitable for the same range of shooting that the 168 SMK is, it just kicks a bit harder. Don't waste you're time with that one.

Might also mention cases here, since you're trying to stretch things a bit. The LC Match cases are the Gold Standard for shooting NM M14s for the vast majority of uses. They're strong, durable, and are properly drawn and annealed for use in gas operated guns like the M14s. The problem for this particular application, is that they have less capacity. I'm sure you've heard the cautions about reducing loads when using 7.62mm Military cases, and in this instance, that caution is exactly correct. However, by going to a thinner commercial case, you can find some makes that will offer several grains more capacity than the LC Match cases. More powder, more velocity, more long-range performance, and that's what you're after. So in general, I'd say stick to the military cases for use in an M14, but in this particular application, it's worth trying the commercial stuff. Just make sure you compare your case capacities first, and know that you're dealing with an advantage before wasting powder on a wild goose chase.

 

[kvwpwr]

I've been wanting to try my m1a past 600yds. Right now I'm using 41.5gr h4895 and 168 smk in lc lr cases with cci34. I have plenty of 175 smk to try. I have varget, h4895 and rl15. Which powder and charge weight are you guys using with the 175s?

 

[Phil McGrath]

The flat face of the front ferrule isn't supposed the touch the flat back side of the front band, the curved lip of the front band and the curved part of the ferrule do. The lip of the F/B needs a small smear of grease to help the F/B return too its at rest position after firing. Naturally if your Gas Cylinder isn't unitized this is pointless. Free floating barrels worked on very few rifles and was quickly abandoned.

IMR-4064 under a 175, driven to LC Match muzzle velocity will serve you well. Remember that Uncle Sam measured there ammo at 78ft so there listed M/V is a little misleading. There are many loads that work well for across the course(200-600yds).

If your seriously looking at Long Range with the M1A, look at Burgers 168/185 Hybrid bullets, IMR-4320 and a quick history brush up on USN long range load data for 7.62mm. A grooved piston and a adjustment too the off side of the spindle valve has you in the game pretty quick if you can read the wind. I'm not a fan of the overbore and vented gas plug they foul/plug too easy in my experience YMMV.

 

[cacoltguy]

Thanks Phil. Yes my gas cylinder is unitized and only the curved lip of the front band is making contact. For what its worth I am awaiting a shim kit for the gas cylinder. Yesterday I noticed that it had backed off and loosened up slightly. When I tapped it back into place with a rubber mallet the gas lock now tightens up about 12:00 instead of the 6:00 position. I'm thinking this will definitely help tighten up the groups as well.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Many years ago, Precision Shooting published a load that was guaranteed supersonic at 1Kyd out of the M14/M1A. I used it in my N/M 'Loaded' M1A (medium wt. stainless barrel, home bedded, pretty much in line with the previously posted advice), and it shot extremely well for me.

Rem/Win Brass, F/L resized (SB die only if clearly needed), flash holes reamed. I got five good loadings from this brass in the M1A.
42.2gr IMR-4064 Others have said you can go higher, I have always treated this as a max load.
Fed 210 Gold Medal/CCI BR-2 primer
SRA 175gr SMK, 2.815" OAL (Max reliable feed length for standard magazine) For single feed, 2.900"-2.910" OAL, the intent is to jump about .010", your distance to lands may vary considerably.

I have not owned a .308 since around 2005, but I do occasionally miss my M1A. At least it went to a good home.

Greg

 

[Phil McGrath]

Many years ago, Precision Shooting published a load that was guaranteed supersonic at 1Kyd out of the M14/M1A. I used it in my N/M 'Loaded' M1A (medium wt. stainless barrel, home bedded, pretty much in line with the previously posted advice), and it shot extremely well for me.

Rem/Win Brass, F/L resized (SB die only if clearly needed), flash holes reamed. I got five good loadings from this brass in the M1A.
42.2gr IMR-4064 Others have said you can go higher, I have always treated this as a max load.
Fed 210 Gold Medal/CCI BR-2 primer
SRA 175gr SMK, 2.815" OAL (Max reliable feed length for standard magazine) For single feed, 2.900"-2.910" OAL, the intent is to jump about .010", your distance to lands may vary considerably.

I have not owned a .308 since around 2005, but I do occasionally miss my M1A. At least it went to a good home.

Greg

Yes, I remember this article and have it packed away somewhere. The load development was done by Derrick Martin and Berrett Tillmen on Derricks home range Rio Salado (East Mesa, Az) all loads were at mag length(2.82-2.83) The brass was Lake City. The write up was done about the same time Sierra Bullets released the 175SMK to the public 1994?

As I remember the load wasn't any real surprise as many, many, match shooters had been shooting the same load data under pulled GI 173 bullets for years. Its a shame Uncle Sam didn't pay any attention too us yellow glasses as the current LC M118LR uses the same load data, talk about history repeating itself, reinventing the wheel, chasing your tail, deja vu' ?

 

[81STFACP]

Give the Berger 168 Hybrids a try. These pills set the service rifle range record at 1000 yards last year at our long range championship. The BC higher than any bullets it its class, .519 is awesome in the wind.