How confidant are you; 3/4 inch consistantly at 100+ yards POLL

[TheGerman]

Have been shooting a lot of 22LR lately and have been mixing up what I've been doing during that time. Shooting for groups is fine but wanted to get into 100-200, possibly 250yard shooting with the 22.

I found a list of targets the guys over at 6mmBR used for their 22 competitions and started running the course of fire to keep things interesting. Here's a link to some of them (towards the end): Rimfire Tactical Precision Match

I especially like the 5 round speed drill on 3/4 in circles. The competition called for this to be done in 1 minute at 50 yards - I've been doing it at 100 and 150 in under 30 seconds after knocking 5 for 5 at 50 almost 100% of the time. That lead me to my question as to how confidant with your rifle and setup, would you be at knocking out this drill in >30 seconds at 100 yards?

I can usually get the first 3 and then started to make the same error I made while in school when shifting the rifle in-front of my face instead of shifting my arms/shoulder to shoot the last 2 dots to the far right which gave me a parallax error; took 4 targets for me to figure out WTF I was doing wrong because they would have the first 3 nailed and then the last 2 would be something like 1.5 inches to the side or high.

 

[aur0ra145]

I drove out to a service rifle match that was pretty far from where I live. The service rifle match director convinced me to shoot in their Military Issue 22LR club match. He figured, if I was driving so far, I should shoot in as many relays as possible.

Long story short, I screwed up and shot the match with his Remington 40X.

Anyways, that got me started on looking for some sort of 22LR target rifle. The 40X being out of my price range, I'm seriously considering one of the Kimber's they have over at CMP right now.

To answer you question, no I would probably never clear that drill unless tiny angels directed the bullets into the circles. My 22 set up consists of a HK MP5-22, tons of fun to shoot but not made for this sort of thing.

 

[justin amateur]

Using bipod and rear bag?
With my CZ 455 American, a Lilja tapered 22lr barrel and Wolf ME, 3 out of 5.
With my 455 Varmint and a bull barrel Lilja 17 hmr firing Hornady 17 gr ballistic tips, 4 of 5.

But winds better be consistent 10 kts or less.
Throw a few gusts into the mix and there's no telling how bad I'll shoot.
Since installing the Liljas, I can't blame the rifles any more when I miss, it's all on me.

 

[hounddawg]

Hell, I can't see 3/4" at 100yds, much less hit it. Now, a tennisball I'll hit.

 

[ivanthesane]

A few months ago we shot dum dum lolipops at 75 yards - they are 3/4" and I got 8 of 10 for 4th place in the match.

Golf balls at 100 no problem - I've shot 20/20 on those, but they are 1 3/4" diameter.

 

[jbell]

In low to no winds 5 for 5 no prob, in medium switching winds I will honestly drop a round or so, but in high switching (10 + mph) anyone will have their work cut out for them. But I am lucky enough to have one of the more consistent and accurate rifles made, and that helps...

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

indoor climate controled no wind after the cold bore / cold shooter shot, ammo weight sorted and matched to the rifle maybe 5 of 5, and that's a big maybe.

outdoor with variables of environment maybe 3 of 5 after cold bore / cold shooter shot.

5 out of 5 in outdoor @ 100Y claims best have some olympic precious metals sitting on the mantle.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

This sounds an awful lot like another MOA all day long at 100yds thread. Gonna sit this one out, getting pretty bored with this horse flesh.

 

[RicosRevenge]

My thoughts too TP and AP. Anybody saying 5-5 all the time is completely full of it. Hell this isn't just MOA now its 3/4 MOA... and centered.

I ran it 20 times today:
5/5 - 4x
4/5 - 11x
3/5 - 4x
2/5 - 1x

Rem 40xb with RWS R-50. Bipod with rear support. I will also say that I didn't make time 3x - dang single feed!

 

[bobtodrick]

TP....yeah, I've always been amazed at how many Olympic quality shooters we have on the forums.
What I love is listening to the excuses from these people when I'm at the range.
"Man, the wind is sure playing havoc with my shooting"
"The barrel needs a good cleaning"
"My mind is just not there today"
Or the best one recently (last weekend)..."well, when you take out the two fliers it's a 3/4MOA group"
I have a feeling that doesn't fly at the Olympic scoring booth.

 

[jbell]

Well the question is 5 rounds in 30 seconds on a 3/4" dot at 100 yards be able to get all 5 "close" to 100% of the time. That is open to interpretation but I take it to mean greater than 85%-90% hits across a 25 shot string (or something in that range). If you think that is Olympic level shooting then you are greatly mistaken. I have no problem saying that I can do that in the conditions that I specified: low to no wind.

But then again if you are shooting a $300-$500 factory rifle with a marginal scope and some ammo you picked up at Walmart then it is going to be a BIG maybe.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Well, you got the hard part done... talking about it... on the internet...

 

[rrflyer]

Well, you got the hard part done... talking about it... on the internet...

Oh man. Of that's not a quotable line I don't know what is.

 

[Sinus211]

100 yards is a great test of consistency, but until you go 400+ you dont really know what your load is going to do.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Shit, shit, shit, shit. Ok simply put, as much as I would like to play this game, I have bigger fish to fry. Great lots of match ammo are pretty hard to come by right now, and I am actually having a good year in competition. If I wasn't hard in the hunt for shooter of the year I would blow a couple boxes on this project in my next range session in a couple weeks. I might would anyway, but I have to work 110 hours total for the next 11 days str8, starting tonight, so the best I could do for the next 11 days will be internet commando. I will also like to defer to what DFoo said, even great ammo has a flier in it from time to time and I can't load my own...completely agree.

My next point: Where the bullet has to land makes a HUGE difference.Bullet cutting the line(which I think I am right to assume would be the proper rules)will add greatly to your allowable group, about 1.1" total. No bullet outside the 3/4 circle and you can subtract .444" from your allowable group, and no one could obtain that with regularity with any known ammo or rifle. Even with more liberal rules and a 30 second time limit this seems on the surface an impossibility, especially at 100yds.
From a bench? Maybe it would increase success but how much who can say. This little exercise was developed to favor an autoloader or at least a repeater, which in my opinion is why it is a 50yd target. I haven't voted yet as I haven't done it, but I am leaning toward 2-3 times at 100yds from a bench with a really high end rifle and some $20 a box ammo. I would like to meet the man that can go perfect through a box of ammo and beat the clock every time. Your problem is the clock, it does not forgive...and make sure and through out all that "close enough" BS.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

100 yards is a great test of consistency, but until you go 400+ you dont really know what your load is going to do.

This is the rimfire section horsefly. We are talking strictly about the 22lr in this case.

 

[Sinus211]

This is the rimfire section horsefly. We are talking strictly about the 22lr in this case.

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't read closely enough. And who you callin horsefly, buttplug?

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Where I come from it is a greeting, no degrading inference intended. Now if I had wanted to insult you I would have said: "We are talking about 22lr SCOOTER."

 

[Sinus211]

Where I come from it is a greeting, no degrading inference intended. Now if I had wanted to insult you I would have said: "We are talking about 22lr SCOOTER."

To be fair I probably fall more in to the category of "scooter." AKA "junior" "sport" or "son."

 

[jbell]

OK, I completely under stand you guys point: a lot of rifle / ammo combos cant do it. However I have shot 25 rounds (5 groups of 5) at 100 yards prone with a bipod and rear bag that averaged out to 0.500" - 0.600" with the largest group being under 1" on more than 1 occasion, and I don't shoot my 22 all that much. Yes every round in the 25 round string was counted. As was mentioned earlier if you were to think about it the largest group that could still produce a clean target would be somewhere in the range of 0.970". So this is why I feel like in low to no wind I could do this with good consistency. As far as the time thing, in those conditions it would not be much of a factor when shooting a repeater as you would get 6 seconds per shot.

All that being said I am not here to defend my statement about being able to do it, and I don't care that I am being made fun of for answering a question on the internet. The question was asked and I gave my thoughts, so if you think I am full of BS then that is fine. Enjoy the laugh. But I do feel that you don't have a clue what you talking about to say this is Olympic level shooting or need to be indoors. The mechanics of holding a certain level of accuracy with a rimfire is no different than the mechanics of doing it with a centerfire, after that it comes down to the ammo and gun combo. Please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong...

This thread has got me wanting to run this specific course of fire and I will the next time I get to the range. It seems like it would be a lot of fun and after all this talk will be interesting to see how it turns out.

 

[Pinecone]

I drove out to a service rifle match that was pretty far from where I live. The service rifle match director convinced me to shoot in their Military Issue 22LR club match. He figured, if I was driving so far, I should shoot in as many relays as possible.

Long story short, I screwed up and shot the match with his Remington 40X.

Anyways, that got me started on looking for some sort of 22LR target rifle. The 40X being out of my price range, I'm seriously considering one of the Kimber's they have over at CMP right now.

To answer you question, no I would probably never clear that drill unless tiny angels directed the bullets into the circles. My 22 set up consists of a HK MP5-22, tons of fun to shoot but not made for this sort of thing.

Maybe start a new thread.

I would like some ideas in this area also. My club shoots a rimfire version of the CMP course of fire also. So I could use a nice .22 target rifle with iron sights.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I believe in depending on the .22LR for all the way out to 50yd, and that any distance beyond that is just not totally practical (if reliably defeating a target of 1MOA or smaller is the goal). So the entire question falls outside my comfort zone.

There are other goals, like learning wind skills, and I can support such goals.

Greg

 

[RicosRevenge]

jbell, my rifle shoots right at 1 MOA average (actually 1.03" through 2800+ documented groups the last few hundred brought it down a bit). I too was confident. But this isn't just a group where POI is 3/4" high left of POA. This is a (using AP's fudge factor) 1 MOA shot on center.

Yesterday I had several groups sub-MOA before and after running the target 20x. There is something else about this target that you don't think about until you shoot it. The adage "aim small, miss small" doesn't apply. You don't have a very small "x" to aim at, you have a big ol' dot to try to find your POA on.

 

[Badshot308]

OK, I completely under stand you guys point: a lot of rifle / ammo combos cant do it. However I have shot 25 rounds (5 groups of 5) at 100 yards prone with a bipod and rear bag that averaged out to 0.500" - 0.600" with the largest group being under 1" on more than 1 occasion, and I don't shoot my 22 all that much. Yes every round in the 25 round string was counted. As was mentioned earlier if you were to think about it the largest group that could still produce a clean target would be somewhere in the range of 0.970". So this is why I feel like in low to no wind I could do this with good consistency. As far as the time thing, in those conditions it would not be much of a factor when shooting a repeater as you would get 6 seconds per shot.

All that being said I am not here to defend my statement about being able to do it, and I don't care that I am being made fun of for answering a question on the internet. The question was asked and I gave my thoughts, so if you think I am full of BS then that is fine. Enjoy the laugh. But I do feel that you don't have a clue what you talking about to say this is Olympic level shooting or need to be indoors. The mechanics of holding a certain level of accuracy with a rimfire is no different than the mechanics of doing it with a centerfire, after that it comes down to the ammo and gun combo. Please feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong...

This thread has got me wanting to run this specific course of fire and I will the next time I get to the range. It seems like it would be a lot of fun and after all this talk will be interesting to see how it turns out.

What rifle and what ammo are you using to get this level of accuracy?

 

[jbell]

I hear ya. As I have not ever shot this exact course of fire I can only go off of what I know. I am looking forward to shooting it, I actually am trying to figure out a way to sneak out after work and get to the range to give it a try as my weekends are pretty tied up. If I make an ass out of my self I will be the first one to call it. I cant wait to see how it turns out. If I fail at it I can only blame my self, because my Sauer shoots...

Ill let you guys know how it shakes out. I think this would be a good thread to start posting some attempts of this COF, should be interesting.

 

[jbell]

What rifle and what ammo are you using to get this level of accuracy?

I am shooting Lapua Center X (several lot #s have been good for me) and a Sauer 200TR. As there has been a lot of talk about ammo lately I decided to show what mid grade ammo can do:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ection/197895-not-too-bad-mid-grade-ammo.html

To the OP, I didn't mean to hijack this thread and change the topic...

 

[Badshot308]

The ammo that's been available locally has been Eley Tenex, Remington Match EPS, RWS Rifle Match, and some Wolf Match Target. All I have to shoot it out of is a 77/22 Varmint with a factory barrel and a 10/22 with a Green Mountain barrel. Interestingly, the Tenex has not out performed the cheaper ammo.

 

[bobtodrick]

JBELL...shooting like this would get you qualified for ISSF shooting competition, in the 3 position class, which would be closest to what we're talking here.
Your statement "In low to no winds 5 for 5 no prob"...especially the 'no prob' part does not at all help the new guy stuggling to get his rifle to shoot 2" groups not become frustrated.
If you'd stated right from the beginning that your rifle (the Sauer) is a $3000+ competition rifle, and I assume you compete, I wouldn't have an issue.
But why start out sounding like...'oh yeah, this is easy'...try keeping in mind that 90% of this forums members aren't shooting that kind of gear.

 

[jbell]

bobtodrick, I understand your point. However I was not trying to help anyone by what I posted. I was just answering an interesting question. I am sorry to have pissed anyone off, but I am not on this site to boast or make "internet tough guy" claims. Hell I may go shoot this and have egg all over my face and look like a jack ass (would not be the first time). Ill post my results when I get time to shoot it and we can all laugh at my dumb ass... LOL

Long story short I am not trying to come off like I know everything or am a great shooter, it seems like I have chaffed some asses.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

No ass chapping here. I am quite certain I can't go 5/5 in 30 seconds. Now if you want to shoot some speed steel with pistol and shotgun, I AM your huckleberry,"that's just my game."

 

[TheGerman]

Ran a few of these yesterday before leaving on vacation and had roughly the same result as before. A few 5s, some 4s and the rest solid 3s with ALWAYS close misses for a 4 and/or 5.

This i with a CZ 455VPT with Timney trigger and Viper PST FFP 4-16 using Wolf Match. Im starting to get annoyed at the reticle thickness as at 100y the center line practically covers the entire dot and swaer I do get the inconsistent flier from time to time.

Either way, beats the shit out of shooting groups at 50y.

 

[bobtodrick]

jbell... from some of your previous posts I can say I'd actually like to spend an afternoon shooting with you...I have a feeling I'd learn a few things that would help my shooting.
I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers either.
I just wish /hope that when skilled people do post they mention their credentials and gear so the majority that are fighting the rimfire 'gremlins' would realize that topnotch shooting comes at a price, both monetarily and timewise.
It would be like me saying that it is really easy to drive a car at high speeds safely...without mentioning that I have 5 years of Formula Atlantic racing and 12 years of competition rallying under my belt.
Kinda changes how the average guy is going to take what I've written.

 

[jbell]

I hear ya bobtodrick. I don't mean to make light of how difficult shooting (any discipline) can be and more than that portray myself as an expert as I am not. I have been shooting for some time and have shot my share of competitions. I try not to but do sometimes come across as "over confident" and maybe that I am. As far learning from me I don't know about that but you are more than welcome to shoot with me anytime...

I did say that I am lucky that "I am lucky enough to have one of the more consistent and accurate rifles made, and that helps" in my original post. I do have a large amount of time and money invested in my rimfire system if you will. I have been through many rifles and have owned some very good ones, and now the search is over. I still feel challenged to shoot this rifle to its potential and I seldom do. I have shot many 5 round 50 yard groups in the low 0.100" and some in the sub 0.100" all prone. There is no doubt in my mind what this rifle will do. But just so you know how much top end equipment helps here is another thread I made last week where my 8 year old daughter shot 4 5 shot groups with the Sauer prone off a bipod and rear bag at 50 yards:

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...section/201072-how-done-i-just-have-brag.html

I am very proud of her. To everyone just getting into this game become a sponge and suck up every bit of knowledge you can on the subject and apply what works for your shooting. And if all else fails go back to the basics, it always works...

 

[bobtodrick]

jbell...I loved that thread when you first posted it.
I have two boys, 9 &12. On a good day the 12 year old can outshoot quite a few adults at our range, and the 9 year old is progressing nicely.
In a few years I expect to be making lame excuses as to why their outshooting me (see aforementioned 'wind, dirty bore and mindset) ;-)

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

yeah jbell, didn't mean to turn it into a flaming thread or anything like that, just saying that just about anyone would have a hard time pulling that off consistantly, say at any given moment over a period of time.

didn't want to appear to be "that guy"

there's just SOOO many variables with ammo, environmentals, etc. and little stuff that effects rimfires at 100Y to pull it off time after time - sort of like a butterfly farts in australia, my groups open up to the left.

doing a 25 round string, i'd get 5-6 in 3/4 or closer thinking i'm shooting the group of my life, the next 3 1.25", next 5-6 inside 1", next couple go haywire to 1.5" / 1.75" ish and so on.

basically i wouldn't put my paycheck on me doing it more that 50% of the time, but would put it on someone that would bet that they can do it>85% of the time.


EDIT: ^ i don't know if i worded that right without sounding like a dick.

 

[jbell]

TP it sounds fine to me. But even if it didn't I have thick skin... I just want everyone to know where I am coming from.

 

[jbell]

So I had to find out what this is all about. After work I headed to the range. I got lucky and all the bad storms had passed and left me with heavy cloud cover and little to no wind. I set up at 100 and got my zero then ran a box of Center X threw this test. I had 20 3/4" dots per target and set up 2 of them for 40 total. Please excuse the pretty color of the dots but that was all I could find that were 3/4".

1st target:



I score it 18 hits out of 20. I had 1 very close that I scored a hit, the top target on the second row. To me if you break the edge it is a hit, at least that is how all the matches I have shot in were scored (both air rifle, small bore, and high power).

Here is a close up of the target in question, you can see black marks on the target from the bullet:



2nd target:



I scored it 16 out of 20. same as the 1st target I had 1 shot that was close but I scored a hit, 3rd row second down. Here is a close up of it:



Here is the set up:





So by my scoring I hit 34 out of 40 for 85%. I was able to make the time easy. I was timing myself and every time ended up around 20-25 seconds on an analog watch. I know 1 miss was my fault form improper natural point of aim and at least 1 from the wind. Also the second target was a little harder to shoot because my eyes were getting tired in the poor lighting. This was very challenging course of fire for sure. Some observations: even though the Hensoldt 4-16X56 mil dot is a very nice scope it is not good for this style of shooting. First the target is completely covered by the ret, if I could make out a pink haze at all 4 corners I broke the shot. Second the 1/10th mil turrets are to coarse for a precise zero, which is very important for this style of shooting. I do feel if I had a proper scope like an NF 8-32BR fine crosshair with 1/8 moa turrets I could more than likely improve by 50%, but that's a guess. Third this drill will show you how much even the slightest breeze will move a 22lr. My Sauer has a 26" barrel which slows the bullet down around 1020-1030FPS so that only makes things worse. So proper wind flags would help a lot also.

(the numbers were corrected based on the excellent observation of armorpl8chikn)

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Nice shooting. Uh...I hate to be a dick But I only see 20 dots on each sheet. Top sheet is 18 out of 20, Top second from the left is a real squeeker. Second target is 16 out of 20. The numbers work out to 85%.

 

[VJJPunisher]

To be fair I probably fall more in to the category of "scooter." AKA "junior" "sport" or "son."

they is talkin .22's Hero

 

[VJJPunisher]

No ass chapping here. I am quite certain I can't go 5/5 in 30 seconds. Now if you want to shoot some speed steel with pistol and shotgun, I AM your huckleberry,"that's just my game."

if I'm ever in western NC i will take this friendly challenge.....highspeed

 

[jbell]

Nice shooting. Uh...I hate to be a dick But I only see 20 dots on each sheet. Top sheet is 18 out of 20, Top second from the left is a real squeeker. Second target is 16 out of 20. The numbers work out to 85%.

LOL! I am an idiot... I used a box to zero and shoot the targets and my zero was 2 - 5 shot groups. I only counted the misses and did the math backwards. Sorry for that you have to excuse me some times. Ill fix the post. Thank you!

 

[Badshot308]

My rapid fire skills suck. I tried this yesterday from the bench and I got only 2 for 5 and both times it took me 39 seconds. By the 30 second mark, I had only engaged the fourth dot.

 

[RicosRevenge]

jbell, great shooting! My hit percentage was 78% but based on 100 rounds so I would say we are shooting pretty darn similar, I personally wouldn't count either one of those close shots as hits; but that is just me... IMO on my target those shots wouldn't have "broken the line." But argument about that aside... again, great shooting!

Quick question for you... would you now agree that 5/5 near 100% of the time is pretty out there for a claim?

One thing that was missing was a 4/5 category which I would drop myself into in a heart beat based on my performance Saturday running the drill 20X - and if I were the one judging I would drop you in as well.

BTW, here is a pic of my rig - SS16X is long gone... now was a Bushnell Elite Tactical 5-15X:

 

[Badshot308]

Ricos, is that a repeater or a single shot?

 

[RicosRevenge]

Ricos, is that a repeater or a single shot?

It is a single-shot, but I've gotten pretty adept at top-loading. In 20 attempts on this COF I missed time 3x but only by 1-2 seconds.

I keep wanting to send it to Black Ops for their conversion; but the time away factor makes me shy away.

 

[jbell]

RicosRevenge, I agree those shots were very close and would not argue if they were called misses in a match but I thought they broke the line (don't really matter to me). I would be very happy with 78 out of 100 if I were you, nice job. I don't know if I would have done that well. I intended to have 25 rounds per target for a total of 50 to get a good sample rate, but I was in a hurry to beat the weather and sunset. I will try it again to see how I do during a different session.

As far as 5 for 5, yes that is a tall order especially over a long string of fire. However I do honestly feel that I could improve my score a considerable amount with a proper scope on my rifle. Like I said, and I am sure most will have this problem with the style of scopes that we run in our style of shooting (FFP with 1/10 mil adjustments) will have a hard time with the target size being covered by the reticle and getting an exact zero. A higher magnification fine ret. SSP 1/8 moa adjustments would make a big difference in the close shots. But yes none the less a very challenging course of fire.

 

[Badshot308]

RicosRevenge, that's excellent shooting. I can't make the time limit with a bolt action repeater...

 

[RicosRevenge]

RicosRevenge, I agree those shots were very close and would not argue if they were called misses in a match but I thought they broke the line (don't really matter to me). I would be very happy with 78 out of 100 if I were you, nice job. I don't know if I would have done that well. I intended to have 25 rounds per target for a total of 50 to get a good sample rate, but I was in a hurry to beat the weather and sunset. I will try it again to see how I do during a different session.

As far as 5 for 5, yes that is a tall order especially over a long string of fire. However I do honestly feel that I could improve my score a considerable amount with a proper scope on my rifle. Like I said, and I am sure most will have this problem with the style of scopes that we run in our style of shooting (FFP with 1/10 mil adjustments) will have a hard time with the target size being covered by the reticle and getting an exact zero. A higher magnification fine ret. SSP 1/8 moa adjustments would make a big difference in the close shots. But yes none the less a very challenging course of fire.

After seeing your shots on 40 rounds, I think you would be all over me for sure. We are definitely back on the same page and appreciate your comments! If my comments came across as harsh; well... you've seen where guys like me and APchiken come from. Guys that shoot like you are rare but the "all day long" guys are prevalent. Thanks a ton for qualifying your comments and actually running the course.

Your comment on the reticule is dead nutz. I had a Weaver T-24 on one of my .22s at one point which would be killer for this type of "bullseye" shooting at known distance; but not so good for ranging and mil-dot practice!

BadShot, thank you for the compliment - I give credit to great equipment and ammo. It is a challenge to get rounds down range when it takes time to load but fun to learn to do it quickly.

Also, thanks to theGerman for creating this topic and giving us yet another challenge to get after!

 

[Merlin O]

My guess is that 18.78% of the respondents on this poll are likely FOS....

 

[justin amateur]

Now, now...the OP asked:

How confident are you?

He never said anyone had to prove it!

I went out yesterday afternoon and tried, just before an afternoon thunderstorm blew through.
Trying to fit a shot in between the wind changes, using Wolf ME, total failure.
Ended up being unable to beat the clock on every group attempted.
Heck, the majority of the shots hit bullseyes I wasn't aiming at. Sure was fun trying though.

Here's a pdf of the target I was attempting: