Anyone have an opinion on this. Is it worth the switch? I have not heard anything conclusive yet.
- Thread starter Sako man
- Start date
AB... g7 and some other features make it the better choice
What's the difference between the Applied Ballistics and the Horus version?
The main differences between the two models is The Applied Ballistics model has a different truing application with drop scale factor, it has bullet length as a standard gun input (used to calculate spin drift) offers +\- angle input and has the ability to use G1,G7 and custom drag profiles. The unit comes Pre loaded with 7 custom curves, and the Gun loader will have over 100 custom drag profiles to use. These will NOT be able to be manually added, they must be done through the software... So you'll either need the bluetooth or the USB interface.
http://kestrelmeters.com/products/kestrel-4500nv-applied-ballistics-meter
also, this alone says a big F U!...
"Horus software that comes with the 4500 Atrag Ballistics is the civilian version. The military version of the Horus ATrag Ballistics software is only available via special GSA contract to officials with the correct security clearance. "
just like Chey Tac... they go F themselves...
What's the difference between the Applied Ballistics and the Horus version?
The main differences between the two models is The Applied Ballistics model has a different truing application with drop scale factor, it has bullet length as a standard gun input (used to calculate spin drift) offers +\- angle input and has the ability to use G1,G7 and custom drag profiles. The unit comes Pre loaded with 7 custom curves, and the Gun loader will have over 100 custom drag profiles to use. These will NOT be able to be manually added, they must be done through the software... So you'll either need the bluetooth or the USB interface.
http://kestrelmeters.com/products/kestrel-4500nv-applied-ballistics-meter
also, this alone says a big F U!...
"Horus software that comes with the 4500 Atrag Ballistics is the civilian version. The military version of the Horus ATrag Ballistics software is only available via special GSA contract to officials with the correct security clearance. "
just like Chey Tac... they go F themselves...
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Argg, that is an FU. Im starting to understand the beef with Horus.
I would see that G1/G7 as a real advantage. Time to sell the Horus on Calguns, here kiddie kiddies!
I would see that G1/G7 as a real advantage. Time to sell the Horus on Calguns, here kiddie kiddies!
I'm in the market for a Kestrel and was actually just looking at these.
In truth, anyone can do the math so, I really don't have an issue with the software change -- You can download a $5 app on the phone that takes the G7 with practically every load on the market, this isn't rocket science...-- but, the question now is, is it worth the extra $$$$ or not to have a civilian-limited software?
It's nice to double check the dope but, once you've got it, you've got it.
Any reviews on these thus far?
In truth, anyone can do the math so, I really don't have an issue with the software change -- You can download a $5 app on the phone that takes the G7 with practically every load on the market, this isn't rocket science...-- but, the question now is, is it worth the extra $$$$ or not to have a civilian-limited software?
It's nice to double check the dope but, once you've got it, you've got it.
Any reviews on these thus far?
Just curious what everyones issue is with the civilian vs military version? Do you even know what the difference is? Or is this just a case of wanting something you've been told you can't have?
The only difference is the Horus Mil version comes pre loaded with mil type gun profiles (m24, M110 ect..) and under the Acc1st screen it has a function that's not really secret squirrel stuff anymore. Oh and it shipped with Lithium batteries and some subdued cosmetics (black logo is tan ect..) That's it. The ballistic engine is the same as the civilian engine.
The Applied Ballistics Kestrel comes in only one flavor, but its a damn good flavor.
The Applied Ballistics Kestrel comes in only one flavor, but its a damn good flavor.
And there you have it, the only difference of any consequence is the Loophole function. So Masked/Ring, is this still as big of an issue as you thought? The real point you should be concerned with is with one using G1 and the other G7.
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No.
Mostly when we're discussing "civilian" limited software...etc...There's a calculation limitation not, a platform profile that's "missing".
For example, some of the ballistic software on the Iphone/Droid/Computer is lacking one or two calculations which, again, I understand this and you're supposed to learn them in book form for a reason so, I'm okay with that. I was expecting that limitation to be present so, not nearly a big issue as I initially imagined.
I've even seem some native drag calculations that are off quite a bit in the apps that you PAY for but, it is what it is...^^
I will definitely be picking one up, now -- So I thank you for the answer!
I had a chance to play with a AB Krestel yesterday, very nice setup, was within .1 mil of my actual dope for my rifle between 800-1000 and matched up 300-600, 200 was lower than my actual dope ...
it is a very nice unit... G7 was awesome with my .260
had 4 instock yesterday when I left...
- Jason
it is a very nice unit... G7 was awesome with my .260
had 4 instock yesterday when I left...
- Jason
Stupid question but, it's a little confusing.
What's the difference between: Kestrel 4500NV Applied Ballistics Meter and Kestrel Meter 4500NV Horus ATrag Ballistics?
Is it just the firmware? ~ If that's what the OP was asking, apologies -- Just a little confused.
What's the difference between: Kestrel 4500NV Applied Ballistics Meter and Kestrel Meter 4500NV Horus ATrag Ballistics?
Is it just the firmware? ~ If that's what the OP was asking, apologies -- Just a little confused.
They are two seperate ballistic calculators
other than that I know of no other differences
other than that I know of no other differences
But the nerve those people have to deprive us of loopholes! Thats life and death. Haha, but I admit perhaps your right doesn't sound like a big deal, at least to me. It would be like my Vectronix not coming with the 3D function, I wouldn't need it.
G7-G1 however. And the AB library of drag functions that has been doplar tested. Even lapua had to change the BC it was marketing 155 scenars at, I'm betting due to Litz tests.
Anyone want to buy a 4500 Horus?????
You have any in stock?
The AB's are shipping - I got mine about 2 weeks ago.
After talking to the software developer for the AB Kestrel ballistic solver - I can say the main difference is the custom drag curves that you can't manually input. If your bullet is one of the ones that Litz tested and validated, then its less work than truing the Horus version.
The Horus will get you on target just as well as the AB one - just the AB one may be less work to get you on target (my understanding). If you already have a Horus version - especially one you have trued and it works for you - no real reason to change IMO. If your buying new - I would opt for the AB version since the solver is exactly the same in both Military version and Civilian version (and the online as well by the way - along with the mobile phone version of the online calculator).
Web / and mobile phone:
http://bergerbullets.com/ballistics/
Additionally, you get access to G7 curves and the Litz custom validated data.
After talking to the software developer for the AB Kestrel ballistic solver - I can say the main difference is the custom drag curves that you can't manually input. If your bullet is one of the ones that Litz tested and validated, then its less work than truing the Horus version.
The Horus will get you on target just as well as the AB one - just the AB one may be less work to get you on target (my understanding). If you already have a Horus version - especially one you have trued and it works for you - no real reason to change IMO. If your buying new - I would opt for the AB version since the solver is exactly the same in both Military version and Civilian version (and the online as well by the way - along with the mobile phone version of the online calculator).
Web / and mobile phone:
http://bergerbullets.com/ballistics/
Additionally, you get access to G7 curves and the Litz custom validated data.
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I didn't see this:
What's the difference between the Applied Ballistics and the Horus version?
The main differences between the two models is The Applied Ballistics model has a different truing application with drop scale factor, it has bullet length as a standard gun input (used to calculate spin drift) offers +\- angle input and has the ability to use G1,G7 and custom drag profiles. The unit comes Pre loaded with 7 custom curves, and the Gun loader will have over 100 custom drag profiles to use. These will NOT be able to be manually added, they must be done through the software... So you'll either need the bluetooth or the USB interface.
Apologies.
Thank you.
the g7 did it for me from the start... didnt even know about the civi thing till i looked it up for this thread... but its the point of purposely limiting it...
same as cheytak did with the "mil" version of their gun.. not that i would have ever bought one anyway, but its still a major douche move
is the Loophole function a big deal?... no.. and thats the same reason it shouldn't have been taking out and neutered for the civi side...
Not to thrash on them but I have seen a lot of Horus haters on the forums. Seem like there is some bad blood floating in the stream.
That aside, I would imagine that if it's first round hits you have to have then the AB will be more accurate due to the ability to describe a more accurate predictive curve. To some people that first round hit is life and death. Do I need it? probably not, but part of the human condition is to always want to go faster and farther and using the best available tech to do so.
That aside, I would imagine that if it's first round hits you have to have then the AB will be more accurate due to the ability to describe a more accurate predictive curve. To some people that first round hit is life and death. Do I need it? probably not, but part of the human condition is to always want to go faster and farther and using the best available tech to do so.
See, I approach this a little differently.
I want a device that can easily double check my dope.
Unfortunately the 2 ballistics programs I paid for on the Iphone, are "civilian" and thus missing 1 or 2 minor adjustments. Is that a big deal for plinking? Absolutely not...but, say the shot actually counts...Those 1 or 2 adjustments at 1200yds, scale so, maybe it's a couple mils off now...Thus, I now only have my initial calculation and if it's wrong, I have no backup.
I have a Kestrel 2000 right now that I actually put to some solid use...So, I'm looking at this as having 2 in one. The Kestrel + Software that I can customize my load to give me a solid backup.
For that price, that's actually a good deal.
Is a situation ever going to occur where I need that first round hit? Maybe, maybe not but, at least with a double check, I'm not wasting $2.50/round for the 2-3 misses it would take to get on target...That's literally a Big Mac.
What adjustments are you refering to exactley? I am using the Mil version of ATRAG on a pda and the firing solutions it gives me and the iphone solutions are typically the same to about .1 out to about 1200, after that the iphone apps start to have issues.
Masked, sorry to imply that you are busting on Horus, no I have seen real blatant attacks on them on the forums from memory. My apologies if it seems I'm instigating any motion here. No intention of doing so.
I have a 4500 Horus and it works for me.
And like Papa my iPhone apps I have used degrade after 1000 where the Horus has worked.
Cool.
I'm not knocking either Kestrel unit, I haven't used them.
I am knocking the Iphone apps because at 1k+ both ballistics AE and iSnipe are REALLY off.
I'm old school so, I'll just do the math myself, if I have to. Like I said, ultimately, I'd like to be able to double check and/or maybe even rely on something for a dope.
You're never going to replace doing it yourself and doing it right the first time but, having something that's nearly perfect, every time, would be nice.
I don't get to shoot 1500+ often, let alone 400+ because of my state so, when I DO venture into the deep woods of Pennsylvania, it's nice to know that I have a double check/backup/doper right there.
@ The PDA. My PDA has started to half-life so, it's time for a new one...Ultimately looking at this Kestrel as more of an all-in-one really than anything else.
Again, if push comes to shove, break out the good ole wax pencil.
I'm not knocking either Kestrel unit, I haven't used them.
I am knocking the Iphone apps because at 1k+ both ballistics AE and iSnipe are REALLY off.
I'm old school so, I'll just do the math myself, if I have to. Like I said, ultimately, I'd like to be able to double check and/or maybe even rely on something for a dope.
You're never going to replace doing it yourself and doing it right the first time but, having something that's nearly perfect, every time, would be nice.
I don't get to shoot 1500+ often, let alone 400+ because of my state so, when I DO venture into the deep woods of Pennsylvania, it's nice to know that I have a double check/backup/doper right there.
@ The PDA. My PDA has started to half-life so, it's time for a new one...Ultimately looking at this Kestrel as more of an all-in-one really than anything else.
Again, if push comes to shove, break out the good ole wax pencil.
odd... ive used the AE on ios and shooter on droid out to 1 mile, and it is pretty on for me.. only time i found my numbers way off, was when i found out my scope wasn't tracking right
i would true it at 600, and my 1k was off, i would true it at 1k, and my 600 was off... my 1st clue something was wrong...
I'm not an expert on Ballistic AE nor will I even claim to be I will say, that for my 308, 168BTHP, it's pretty much dead nuts on. For the 308 or Win Mag past 1000, it's dicey.
I actually spent the night playing with the app while watching Duck Dynasty; Si and that revolver man...Damn. -- Anyway, my biggest beef is mostly with the #'s they're using as averages, particularly on some of the pre-generated rounds...
Obviously you can change that but, that seems to be my issue. ~ Particularly with the Hornady 180 SST's...
When I actually broke down about 1hr in and did the math, myself, the issue was pretty obvious - Their standard average model is not, remotely, on...Not by a long-shot, it's actually about 20% off...So, I've been using the real #'s in my math and then doing the standard go-to model in ballistic AE.
Let's chalk this up to user retardation. ~ Don't use the stock profiles and/or BC's, if you're going past 1k.
Anyway, thanks @ CSTactical for answering all of my questions...
I tried out the AB model yesterday for the first time, made first round hits at 500, 800 and 1000yds on 10x10" plates. Money well spent.
Stock profiles?... You mean for "loaded ammo"? Aren't you trueing the fps?
Also, u should be useing the litz g7 when u have it... If not convert the g1 to g7
Also a 168 308 will go ss "near" 900y and past the accuracy can be highly questionable..
As for g1 being off, ya.. It can easy be off.. The company's the make the bullets have been known to fudge numbers
Also, u should be useing the litz g7 when u have it... If not convert the g1 to g7
Also a 168 308 will go ss "near" 900y and past the accuracy can be highly questionable..
As for g1 being off, ya.. It can easy be off.. The company's the make the bullets have been known to fudge numbers
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Your input data must have been good.
Dieselgeek and I ROed together today, while waiting for shooters we got his 260 out, he has his 4500AB trued, and he was making solid hits on a steel Kangaroo target at 1194 yards, I was impressed, wind holds and elevation were spot on, that's gonna cost me money.
Haha, Cobra, your gonna cost me $700.00 bucks bro! Better zip-it!
Lots of people chiming in with good feedback on the AB model. Seems good so far.
I don't know why everyone is acting surprised that the AB version is kicking out good dope, the phone version has been doing it for awhile. People are also doing the same with the Horus version as well. The question is does the AB version give the same or different dope as the Horus? My guess is most won't see a huge difference in firing solutions until they get to 1200 and farther.
The Horus and AB run two completely different ballistic Solvers. The AB conducts its calibration differently then Horus does theirs as well. One unit offers Custom drag curves, one does not. If the majority of your shooting is in the supersonic realm of flight then yes differences will be small, but if you shoot through Trans and subsonic range of flight, then some of those features will come in handy.
Curious, but why is 1200 the magic number? Enlighten us.
It's not a hard mark on the ground but more of a generalization so a "+/-" could preceed it but as mentioned above those shooting trans/sub or even with a caliber capable of 1200 and beyond will probably see larger differing firing solutions spit out between the two at the longer distances.
I understand what you guys are driving at. So this leads to my other question.
I wonder what solvers either use?
Does both Horus and the AB version calculate real time Pejas solutions? I am guessing, but I would suppose the Kestrel contrasts look up tables rather than doing the actual Pejas/? calculations? A matrix/lookup would be faster. I do believe the AB models as stated at least has the additional doplar data for a G7 model, once again that has to be from a look up?
Pejas (if it is) uses a G1 model then sandwiches on behaviors through the mach range, it's more involved than I give it credit. However it's an incomplete model for transonic range. Hence why some ballistics engineers are moving towards PRODAS or 6DOF/6DOF through fluids.
Once again, I'm just guessing here and not forming conclusions for anyone to follow.
Spot on for sure.
Small edit about Coriolis
Here is one thing I noticed. I'm not sure what direction I had it pointed at before, but when I pointed it at the target and captured it, I noticed a .2-.3 come up. If I'm thinking correctly that's because we're shooting east to west and the Coriolis has an effect on my elevation.
Brian, We looked at the Roo from the porch. My impact was DEAD on where my hold was. I held right about where the leg meets the body, and I shit you not there is a center punched dot on that roo.
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Horizontal drift depends on latitude:
Above equator, drift is to the right
Below equator,drift is to the left
Vertical drift depends on azimuth:
Shooting east, drift is up
Shooting west, drift is down
Above equator, drift is to the right
Below equator,drift is to the left
Vertical drift depends on azimuth:
Shooting east, drift is up
Shooting west, drift is down
The only input I made was the muzzle velocity that I was getting from a magnospeed
. The bullet was in the library and it pulls the environmental data itself. There was no wind at all. Worked well.
AB = point mass solver (AFAIK)
Also, the custom curves from Litz are not Doppler radar. That is WAY too expensive and difficult to obtain. The custom curves are obtained using sound measurements along the trajectory AFAIK. The difference in the Horus and AB units at supersonic are going to be small - but past the transonic barrier is where the custom curves are going to be much closer on the AB to the actual bullet trajectory - hence the 1200 yard reference - but it really is where ever the transonic zone is located on your particular cartridge / altitude etc.
The Matgneo is a great tool. Way better than the optical systems I have used before. Best money spent on the Magneto.
Makes sense, you can get time of flight and cross ref it with an omni directional microphone, I think? But you would have to place mics way out there I imagine.
Why do we care so much about transonic and beyond again, and why is this such a selling point ?
Are we competing in the transonic & beyond region ?
Isnt having a general idea where 1120fps falls and then moving to a load that puts your target well before it enough for 99% of people shooting. If it says 1200 yards is where transonic falls, great, if you plan on shooting that far and you think it matters move to a different bullet. Or just know your hit percentage will fall below 50% or less.
Seems to me it's one of those things that sounds great but at the end of the day is pretty hard to prove beyond anecdotal evidence. Most people are lobbing rounds and are happy if X% hit, as very few are actually recording accurate data beyond transonic. Even less have access too ranges that far.
Are we competing in the transonic & beyond region ?
Isnt having a general idea where 1120fps falls and then moving to a load that puts your target well before it enough for 99% of people shooting. If it says 1200 yards is where transonic falls, great, if you plan on shooting that far and you think it matters move to a different bullet. Or just know your hit percentage will fall below 50% or less.
Seems to me it's one of those things that sounds great but at the end of the day is pretty hard to prove beyond anecdotal evidence. Most people are lobbing rounds and are happy if X% hit, as very few are actually recording accurate data beyond transonic. Even less have access too ranges that far.
People keep asking me about both, and I keep telling them the same thing. That ELR is where it SEEMs that it will make a difference. 1200 is as far as I've been able to take it.
I've shot ELR on more than a few occasions, and 90% of those shots were not in the transonic region. When shooting beyond 1500m I used a set up designed for the task. So you're not solving a beyond transonic problem. I reall have no interest in knowing what my 308 needs for dope at 1 mile.
We have access to much better equipment so the question is really unnecessary.
Now having as accurate a range to say, where your bullet goes below 1200fps is very useful in decision making, but not so much when it comes to actually shooting. If you ever shot on the edge of your bullets max effective range you know even with verified drop your hits are not consistent mainly due to wind, also because of variations in your MV. SD at distance is very important and something the computers are not working with because you don't know until after the shot not before. If there is a 25fps variation between "X" number of rounds, at ELR distances that creates a set of variables the computer doesn't predict.
Me using the AB Kestrel I think it is a worthwhile investment and highly effective tool. But the off the cuff pitches and wrongly repeated thinking does not hit the mark. These tools are starting points to get you close, but there are too many variations to say it works the same for every situation. The shooter, the gun, the ammo, even the scope are wild cards in the equation. You being the biggest one of all.
Staying inside Max Effective will help the computer be as accurate as possible. Outside of that your hit percentages drops off even with verified information, simply because we don't have all the information necessary.
Let's be realistic and not spread information that misleads people. Just because you saw video of a guy hitting a target at 1 mile with a 308 does mean you saw the 36 tries it took to do it.
We have access to much better equipment so the question is really unnecessary.
Now having as accurate a range to say, where your bullet goes below 1200fps is very useful in decision making, but not so much when it comes to actually shooting. If you ever shot on the edge of your bullets max effective range you know even with verified drop your hits are not consistent mainly due to wind, also because of variations in your MV. SD at distance is very important and something the computers are not working with because you don't know until after the shot not before. If there is a 25fps variation between "X" number of rounds, at ELR distances that creates a set of variables the computer doesn't predict.
Me using the AB Kestrel I think it is a worthwhile investment and highly effective tool. But the off the cuff pitches and wrongly repeated thinking does not hit the mark. These tools are starting points to get you close, but there are too many variations to say it works the same for every situation. The shooter, the gun, the ammo, even the scope are wild cards in the equation. You being the biggest one of all.
Staying inside Max Effective will help the computer be as accurate as possible. Outside of that your hit percentages drops off even with verified information, simply because we don't have all the information necessary.
Let's be realistic and not spread information that misleads people. Just because you saw video of a guy hitting a target at 1 mile with a 308 does mean you saw the 36 tries it took to do it.
Damn very well said!
What I think a lot of people are waiting for is to find out if there is an appreciable difference between the Horus and the AB model Kestrel to warrant those who have a Horus kestrel to upgrade to an AB model.
All these programs are so close to each other the variations are really minor in a practical sense.
if you're the type to chase tech, well then nothing will satisfy you until you get to use the latest one out there.
If the software you are currently using puts you on target there is absolutely no reason to switch. Especially when you consider they use the same base code under the hood. With the Kestrel, there is really only so much computing it can do. So thinking you are getting more horsepower is false. I have yet to see one piece of App style software work better than another beyond personal or practical accuracy standards. It's features and User Interface, if they are doing the same thing with a really similar interface you're not upgrading, but moving laterally.
Going from the Horus Kestrel to AB Kestrel is more a lateral move. There might be some minor differences because we are constantly learning, and the AB is the latest, but you have to ask yourself can you exploit it. Especially if you are already using the Horus, does it put you on target yes or no? If yes, stick with it.
one added note, I think moving forward, the AB version has better long term prospects as I believe there will be some some additions to go along with it
if you're the type to chase tech, well then nothing will satisfy you until you get to use the latest one out there.
If the software you are currently using puts you on target there is absolutely no reason to switch. Especially when you consider they use the same base code under the hood. With the Kestrel, there is really only so much computing it can do. So thinking you are getting more horsepower is false. I have yet to see one piece of App style software work better than another beyond personal or practical accuracy standards. It's features and User Interface, if they are doing the same thing with a really similar interface you're not upgrading, but moving laterally.
Going from the Horus Kestrel to AB Kestrel is more a lateral move. There might be some minor differences because we are constantly learning, and the AB is the latest, but you have to ask yourself can you exploit it. Especially if you are already using the Horus, does it put you on target yes or no? If yes, stick with it.
one added note, I think moving forward, the AB version has better long term prospects as I believe there will be some some additions to go along with it
I have both, and I agree, they both put them on target.
It could certainly warrant a test. For curiosity sake I'm sure someone will see what lands rounds first. Perhaps they are equal for all practical purposes?
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I thought about buying the Horus and did'nt know about the AB Kestrel, And I use A couple of apps but my main App is pretty close and I am using the 4000NV So maybe the next move for someone like me would be to go with the AB model, and Just through another spanner in the works Why if these things are Bluetooth dont Kestrel have a software upgrade that you can download to make your Horus use the AB software or is that to simple because after much debate there is going to be alot people putting away their Horus and going out and buying the latest Must Have Kestrel,
But dose anyone know if the Military are going to change to the AB model or will they stay with the Horus and the 4000NV Models.
john
But dose anyone know if the Military are going to change to the AB model or will they stay with the Horus and the 4000NV Models.
john
