Thinking of finally making the jump from M14 type to AR10 type, need advice

[Narwhal]

Hi,

I recently took a "DMR" class with an M14 (LRB semi-auto). In the class I was shooting under 2 MOA with occasional 1 to 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards. That's about what I expected from the gun since it just has a standard profile 18.5" chrome lined barrel and a GI fiberglass stock. The main problem was with the scope mount, about every 100 rounds or so it would loosen if I didn't remember to tighten it (bassett machine mount). It also had some shifting zero issues which made it difficult to go from say, 600 yards, then back to 100 yards and be on with my elevation (sometimes it would be 2-3 moa off). On the upside I fired 500 rounds through the rifle without cleaning it and it never even thought about malfunctioning, which brings it up to about 2500~ rounds total with no malfunctions, and could hit a steel IPSC silhouette every time at 600 yards. The problems arose when i tried to shoot 12" moving targets at 500 and 600 - shooting a 2 MOA gun on a 2 MOA moving target at these distances made this a very low percentage proposition, in my case I could only get 20-30% hits on 12" 1 mph movers at 500 and 600. Also my hit percentage dropped pretty drasticaly past 600 yards, although I could get hits as far out as 800 occasionally. I was shooting the Hornady 155gr AMAX bullet in their "TAP" loading.

I also have two other M14's, a heavy krieger barreled 22" LRB that's set up for service rifle competion and a Select Fire Smith Enterprise in a McMillan folding stock, plus 50 magazines, spare parts, tools, and all that jazz. So I have a lot wrapped up in the platform and I do enjoy shooting them.

Anyway, I was going to buy an LRB M25 next year (M14 with a built in scope rail) but the instructor at my class recommended to me that I look into an AR-10 rifle instead in order to get the most out of my ability, limited as it may be. 5-10 years ago when I first started buying rifles, I felt like the reliability of the AR-10 platform wasn't good enough. I thought that the AR was reliable in 5.56 but not in 7.62. However after spending some time around some LaRue OBR's, my opinion on that has changed. I've watched those guns shoot hundred of rounds of suppressed with no malfunctions all while shooting 3/4 MOA or better and am starting to get jealous. Plus, the availability of 7.62 pmags is a big bonus.

So, is the OBR the answer? I know M.L. isn't necessarily the most popular guy on this corner of the internet. The JP LRP-07 also looks intriguing to me, as does the GAP 10. Are all of these guns as reliable in the OBR in the sense that you can put several hundred rounds downrange without cleaning and have no worry about a malfunction? How about suppressed?

And one final question, if I order an OBR now to get a spot on the waiting list, is my credit card charged now or when the rifle ships? I'm very tempted to order an 18" OBR tomorrow.

Thanks for your time.

 

[LRRPF52]

I spent a lot of time with M14's and M21's in the Army. It has a certain place of fondness for many.

After seeing all the issues you related, and more, I have never spent a dime on one, yet I have purchased 5 different AR10's. My current AR10 was built by GA Precision and chambered in the wind-cheating .260 Remington, with a super-accurate .22" Bartlein barrel.

If you are going to be shooting a lot of positions, I would recommend an 18" barrel as you seem to be looking at already in .308, but then I would also throw out the consideration of the 6.5 Grendel back in the AR15 frame. I had plans to build a 16" or 18" .308, but my 16" Grendel ruined those plans for me entirely, at significantly less cost. I like that it handles so well, is lightweight, but packs some serious energy on-target for DM-type scenarios.

I run a lot of DM training, and the classes have a mix of 5.56 and .308. The 5.56 guns are typically faster on target, easier to get into positions with, and track better for follow-ons due to low recoil. They are anemic on steel plates. The 7.62 guns, for all their weaknesses, show their worth when they impact steel, as it is night and day. During my first courses, I was wishing I had brought my 16" Grendel to demonstrate how it really was the best of both worlds. I make it a point to bring the Grendel for all the courses now to show how you can basically have close to 5.56 recoil, with close to 7.62 energy, and bullets that buck the wind better than both 77gr SMK and 168gr SMK.

 

[Eat_Beef]

What LLRP said.

I'm currently running a full house Crazy Horse. It's not giving me the accuracy I want, and the M14's open top design really pukes in your face when you shoot suppressed. So I'm currently in my ninth month waiting for a GAP 10. It came down to it or a LWRC REPR for me. I may still get a REPR in the future, but I'm seriously considering going to a Grendel.

The weight savings are significant, and the ballistics give me pretty much everything a 308 does, except for several thousands of rounds in inventory.

 

[Unknown]

I second the recommendation that you consider a 6.5 Grendel. I have owned a number of M1A's in various configurations, and have great fondness for the platform. My current semi-auto 7.62x51 platform is an AR10 style rifle with a 24 inch barrel. That length is a bit too long for most of my shooting (under 800 yards). The Grendel platform remains supersonic until around 1300 yards depending on the load, atmospheric and environmental conditions. If everything is right, the Grendel can make 1400 yards with a 123 grain Scenar.

I think you would be well served by an AR10 style rifle in 260 Remington. I recommend that over the 6.5 Creedmoor because all your 7.62x51 cases will make it easy for you to create your own 260 brass if you wish. There is no significant ballistic difference between the 260 Remington, 6.5x47, and 6.5 Creedmoor. All will work great.

For most of my shooting, a Grendel will provide plenty of reach, more than adequate accuracy, low recoil, cheap powder costs, in an AR15 size rifle. If you go with a 20 inch barrel, the rifles are actually quite nice handling too. For your purposes, I wouldn't go much shorter than 18-20 inch, and the 24 inch barrel is just too long for anything but bench type shooting. There simply isn't a need for all that extra barrel in the Grendel, given that a 19.5 inch barrel will usually reach out to 1300 yards and remain supersonic with the right load.

GA Precision, Short Action Customs, and AR15 Performance all make great rifles. Alexander Arms, and Les Baer are both hard to beat for Grendel type rifles. I haven't dealt with Les Baer, but have had lots of great success and interactions with Alexander Arms. I have no financial interest in any of these companies.

 

[BCP]

And one final question, if I order an OBR now to get a spot on the waiting list, is my credit card charged now or when the rifle ships? I'm very tempted to order an 18" OBR tomorrow.

I think they charge 10% but I am not too sure about that.

I do know that they had a long delay in their previous orders but are finally getting back on track.

Personally I would give my money to GAP over Larue and I would get an 18" 308 model.

POF, LMT both make 308 ARs and have lots of happy owners as well.

 

[Kiba]

I currently have both a GAP10 and a JP LRP07. Both are great rifles. The JP is a little lighter and the side charger is nice. Even though they're both the same caliber the JP has a softer and smoother recoil impulse but I attribute much of that to the JP low mass carrier and the JP also has a slightly larger brake than the GAP10. No complaints from either rifle in in the accuracy department.

Regarding reliability, my original home built Armalite pattern AR10 in 308 has ran 300 rounds in a day without a hiccup or requiring cleaning part way through the day. I haven't ran that many in a day through the JP or GAP10. The JP has had a couple of failures to eject but that was remedied with slight gas block adjustment. The GAP10 did have some caliber/load related teething issues that GAP has since remedied and it's now running well.

I started my larger caliber semi auto ventures with a Fulton Peerless M1A in 2000 and a few years later had Ted Brown build an LRB M25... and after building my first AR10 a few years ago I sold the Fulton, the LRB M25 now stays in the safe, and the AR's come out to play.

Regarding wait times, my GAP10 took somewhere around 8 months. I ordered my JP at the end of May and they estimated 16 weeks; it arrived at my FFL just under 8 weeks after ordering. It wasn't a "ready to ship" rifle, it was a spec'd build. They have a few LRP-07's available for immediate shipment, including an 18" 308 and a 20" 308: JP - Available Firearms and Assemblies

The 6.5 Grendel and 6mm Grendel variants mentioned above out of an AR15 are intriguing too-- I'm considering building an upper or another complete rifle.

 

[Narwhal]

Thanks for the replies, you have certainly given me some things to think about and some more rifles to consider. Unfortunately I don't reload (I simply don't have the time to shoot if I also reload) so I will need to stick to .308/7.62x51.

 

[BCP]

(I simply don't have the time to shoot if I also reload)

I don't buy that.

Take whatever time you spend in the evenings watching football/baseball or whatever and make ammo for an hour or two. Spread it out over 3-4 nights, say one night sizing brass, next night process/primer, nights 3-4 powder and bullet. You should be able to make 100 rounds a week without a problem.

 

[LRRPF52]

Thanks for the replies, you have certainly given me some things to think about and some more rifles to consider. Unfortunately I don't reload (I simply don't have the time to shoot if I also reload) so I will need to stick to .308/7.62x51.

You know, I thought that I would only be reloading for the Grendel when I got into it. Now, the bulk of my range sessions are shot with the Hornady 123gr A-MAX factory load, which is extremely difficult to compete with in terms of accuracy and affordability. My family time is more important to me than sitting at a bench, so I only reload when I have to.

I was also surprised to learn that there are 24 factory loads for the Grendel, last time I checked, with new ones being offered periodically as the demand continues to grow. Nosler announced at SHOT this year that they are making Grendel brass, and they just published their Grendel load data for everyone to see on their site.

Hornady also released the 123gr SST factory load the beginning of this year, and Precision Firearms put out a new Lapua-brassed 123gr SST load, in addition to their 123gr A-MAX, 123gr Scenar, and numerous other loads using Lapua brass. Alexander Arms has a nice spread of hunting and target loads as well, and I'm seeing Hornady Grendel ammo on more and more big retailer shelves that flies off as soon as it is placed there.

With the Hornady 123gr A-MAX and even SST, you have a load that is more affordable than .223 FGGM, that shoots as well or better than it, with less wind deflection than it and .308 FGGM 168 SMK, that your kids can handle all day.