Advanced Marksmanship Instructing Question

[Punisher3]

Alright, so I'm interested in everyone's feedback on this - both beginners and skilled shooters. What constitutes "advanced marksmanship", or I guess I mean where does one draw the line between basic and advanced marksmanship? I'm going to be teaching a basic precision rifle course pretty soon and I have a lesson plan put together, but I'm wondering if I have gotten too far advanced for precision shooting beginners. Interested to hear what everyone thinks! Thanks in advance.

Paden

 

[mark5pt56]

Fundementals are the same regardless. It all depends on how much time you have with them. Don't try to "cram" but so much at one time if it's a basic class. In the advanced class you can add for instance movers, positional, more in depth ranging(UKD) etc. Spotting is another topic to discuss. Usually, you will find that it's important to take the time to square away the rifle and related gear first thing. Go through everything, especially the rifle to insure it's fitted and all is torqued, etc. nothing worse than fixing gear in the middle of it all.

 

[Punisher3]

Fundementals are the same regardless. It all depends on how much time you have with them. Don't try to "cram" but so much at one time if it's a basic class. In the advanced class you can add for instance movers, positional, more in depth ranging(UKD) etc. Spotting is another topic to discuss. Usually, you will find that it's important to take the time to square away the rifle and related gear first thing. Go through everything, especially the rifle to insure it's fitted and all is torqued, etc. nothing worse than fixing gear in the middle of it all.

I agree. There will be heavy emphasis on fundamentals and proper gear setup and recognition. I am worried about cramming. I have incorporated range e and UKD shooting into the class, but not the other stuff mentioned. I think we are on the same page. I will give a brief spotting trace introduction and I'll show a video so they know what to look for, but that's about as far as it goes for spotting. Maybe I need to find a way to incorporate a little more explanation in that area. Good point. Thanks for the input.

 

[mark5pt56]

You will find that while shooting on steel and spotting, people tend to simply look for hits and not watch for trace. If using steel, don't paint it for that reason. Or use paper and then go see and compare spotting verses actual. I would say if not doing the actual drill, don't include it. A big time saver is if you can set up at 400 and distribute targets at the 0/100/200/300. That alleviates the caravan and kitchen sink folks from holding up everyone else. Not having to move 3 times saves a ton of time. Try to remind and suggest that the intent is zero and data collection while squaring away gear concerns and fundementals. Some will shoot 50 rounds at one spot trying for that perfect group and it only gets worse.

 

[Punisher3]

Roger that. Thanks for the input!

 

[damoncali]

Safety, position, sight operation & alignment, sight picture, trigger control, breathing. Everything else is "advanced".

 

[gstaylorg]

Safety, position, sight operation & alignment, sight picture, trigger control, breathing. Everything else is "advanced".

Agreed. You could certainly touch on windreading also, but the bottom line is that if the students don't pick up the fundamentals to start with, anything more "advanced" will be wasted effort. You might also consider offering a more advanced course at a future date, giving the students a chance to practice and strengthen the fundamentals first. Hopefully, at that point they would be better prepared to absorb more advanced material.

 

[alfson]

How many days? What student/instructor ratio? What is the experience level/maturity of the students? What kind of wind does your range have? Wind reading may be absolutely necessary or very minor depending on conditions.

 

[Punisher3]

Depends on the length. Either 3 or 4 days..I purposed a curriculum that consisted of both. 8 students/4 teams...2 instructors. Treating the students as beginners, but I'm sure some of them will have a little experience with long range but I'm not planning for it.

I guess I look at the "basics" a little differently. Everything mentioned is included in my lesson plan - including wind. I won't elaborate on a whole lot of the more "advanced" stuff like ballistics or positions or anything like that. I don't have it in front of me, but from what I can call be memory, I have listed the topics below that I personally think are necessary. My way of teaching allows the student to actually understand how everything works. I don't really like teaching in a way that just allows them to make a 700 or 800 yard shot. I want them to understand whats happening without going very in depth on the more advanced stuff...if that makes any sense?

-Heavy emphasis on fundamentals (body alignment and position, sight picture, parallax, eye relief, breathing, and trigger control)
-Into to ballistics (basically a brief overview of how drag, temp, altitude, etc. can have impact on the shot)
-Proper gear setup and prep for range
-Wind & how to read mirage
-Practical DOPE
-Spotting trace
-MOA
-Mils and Range E
-Holds
-Little bit of UKD stuff after DOPE is complete

 

[Graham]

Advanced marksmanship is using unconscious competence with the fundamentals to solve problems as they present themselves.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Advanced marksmanship is using unconscious competence with the fundamentals to solve problems as they present themselves.

All,

I think Graham has an appropriate definition, I would eliminate the word unconscious however as marksmanship development requires consciousness for consistent sight alignment. My experience with the concept is that since most novice shooters don't consider themselves novice shooters, suggesting that they might want to consider some formal basic marksmanship training will usually fall upon deaf ears. Tell these shooters they might want to consider some advanced marksmanship training and that may get their attention. In any event, marksmanship is all about sight alignment and trigger control. Everything else, supports those two concepts. The everything else includes knowledge about zeroing, ballistics/trajectory, score book usage, positions, wind and weather, shooter/target analysis, and range estimation. All of these subjects can be covered by a highly qualified instructor in about 3 to 4 hours using a concise lesson plan. From there, it will mostly be the shooter's comprehension of the significance of what has become known to him to be important to good shooting which will advance marksmanship.

 

[mark5pt56]

If you read Plaxco's book, he explains this and also is a link to a more in depth explanation.

Plaxco (not exact qoute)
1-conscious of every detail
2- conscious of some details, conditioned response on others (basically EVERYONE should be in this stage while training(provided you've been past stage one)-that's why we're there-right?)
3-"auto pilot" you have honed your skills and are now using you brain power to process the here and now-decision making. Although possible for you to "remind" yourself of what you need to do when making a shot, so potentially reverting to stage 2 in a gunfight.

Remember, our brain is like a computer-in training, you "program it" to perform a function and when that time comes to execute that program, you want it to do it without fail. That's why consistency is key so you don't have multiple programs that could cause hesitation, etc. It also has "x" amount of processing power, so the more you have to think about minute details, the slower your brain will function under stress.

www.unm.edu/~napperow/Chap5Coker.ppt‎

Cognitive Stage

High degree of cognitive activity
Attentional demands high, limited to movement production
Movements lack synchronization and appear choppy and deliberate
Numerous errors, typically gross in nature
Lacks capability to determine cause of errors or correct them

Associative Stage

More consistent
Attentional demands for movement production decrease
Fewer, less gross errors
Better at detecting cause of errors
Begin to develop appropriate error correction strategies


Autonomous Stage

Highest level of proficiency
Not all learners will reach this stage
Attention reallocated to strategic decision-making
Consistent
Confident
Make few errors and can generally detect and correct those errors that do occur

 

[TimK]

This is almost outside this discussion, but not everyone cares about trace. Out here in the dry West, we almost never get to see trace. There just isn't enough humidity in he air. Teaching someone to depend on trace in some way might actually prove negatively useful if they ever shoot in an arid climate.

 

[Graham]

Instructing Question

Reading bullet trace is an advanced skill. Mostly because its development does not require shooting. I'm not sure what depending on trace is, though.

Consciously aligning your sights is not the same thing as unconscious competence with the mechanics of using that sight alignment to achieve a hit on target....Apples and oranges.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Graham,

Every action can be a conscious one. Breathing, for example, can be conscious or involuntary. In all matters of marksmanship, I will shoot better when conscious of my direction. Those that are not conscious of their actions are prone to need to revisit the fundementals. I do see your point, I agree with it, just does not need to be qualified as you defined it.

 

[Graham]

Sterling, I understand what you are saying, and that may work fine for a marksmanship competition at a shooting range at one distance on one target, but when you are able to devote only a fraction of your concentration/attention to marksmanship tasks that method won't work very well.

 

[paindoc]

One of my shooting mentors defined Advanced marksmanship as employing all of the basic fundamentals, ONLY FASTER. I think this is what Graham might be saying. Conscious/unconscious are really not accurate physiological phenomenon when it comes to brain/motor neuron loops. Shy of having a flat EEG (brain death), the brain and the corticospinal tracts are ALWAYS active. We are not always aware of them on a higher cortical level, but by definition we are conscious of them all.
I see advanced marksmanship as the ability to place a shot on target(s), in an accurate, efficient and repeatable fashion. The "faster" portion of this activity can only occur if sufficient training has been done to develop an efficient / shortest pathway both to AND from the brain, spinal cord, and peripheral proprioceptors. This is part of the phenomenon that falls under the term "plasticity" of the central nervous system.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but it may be food for thought.

 

[VJJPunisher]

position work(sling, no sling, bipod, no bipod, prone, seated), trigger control, sight allignment, breathing control, and mental "shot plan". Everything else to me is considered getting into advanced

 

[Delta4-3]

position work(sling, no sling, bipod, no bipod, prone, seated), trigger control, sight allignment, breathing control, and mental "shot plan". Everything else to me is considered getting into advanced

Dude, wtf? That was a totally normal post....LAME!

 

[Rifles Only]

Paindoc,
you are exactly right.

 

[paindoc]

Paindoc,
you are exactly right.

Thanks Jacob. See, I was paying attention!