Barrel for my .223 vs AR-10

[tj223]

Hey guys, looking for some advice on my AR situation.


Background Story

I am a FTR shooter that has never shot a 3gun match, but I built my AR with 3gun in mind.
It is a M&P 15 and it shoots great for a mostly factory build.

Now I am more interested in tactical comps.
Specifically me and my cousin are considering making the trip to the Mammoth Sniper Challenge in KY in January.

I'm sure most of you are very familiar with it, but those who are not:
Basically it is a 2 man team match, consisting of a Primary shooter and Secondary Shooter.
My cousin is going to be shooting Primary and I will be Secondary.

The Mammoth website vaguely defines the targets as "... targets from very close to 1000 yards. Target size will range from 1/2 to 3 MOA." with no distinction between Primary or Secondary.
But from talking with past competitors, the Secondary targets go out to mid 500's and are roughly 1MOA.


Goals for the rifle

A - I would like to consistently hit a 5" plate at 600 yards. (600 yds is my end goal for this rifle, I have 2 bolt guns that I shoot to 1000.)
B - As light as possible, for 3gun / Tac Comps.
C - Keep it as cheap as possible.


Current Considerations

A: Put a 18" - 22" (JP Supermatch?) match barrel and a new trigger (JP as well?) in my M&P. Use it for both.

B: Build AR-10 (entry level DMPS) for precision stuff and keep the 15 as it sits for 3gun.


Concerns & Questions

1 - My top concern is the coin. I am a little tight on cash at the moment, but I have until January to get this done. How much am I looking at for a decent AR-10 in .308?

2 - Will an entry level AR-10 in .308 out shoot my upgraded .223 at 600yds?


**Note: We will be doing the ETM so I am limited to .223 and .308.**


Thanks in advance!

 

[ksthomas]

tj223,

You've got some seriously conflicted goals there. Maximum accuracy and minimum price are mutually exclusive of one another. The keeping it "as light as possible" may require some flexibility on your part as well, since there's sacrifices to be made if you go down that road. Yes, a good entry level NM AR-15 from any of the mainstream makers should meet the MOA requirement without too much difficulty. If you're building, that gives you some wiggle room to go with a much better quality barrel, but now you're bumping into that "cheap as possible" wall.

I'd suggest you reevaluate your priorities here, and decide where you want to hold the line, and where you're willing to cut some corners. You say that your top concern right now is the cost, and that's going to seriously limit your options when it comes to producing a top-end rifle. Good barrels cost some serious money, as do good triggers, and there's just no getting around that fact.

 

[ORD]

If you are a competent semi-auto shooter, then MOA or better accuracy out to 600yds is certainly more than do-able with either of your above-stated options, however your average .223/5.56 AR won't be worth much if you REALLY are going to have to be taking precision shots out to 1k as stated in the course of fire overview for Mammoth (I realize you are likely shooting #2 and don't intend to engage any of the longer-range targets). Obviously, beyond 600-700yds is where the ballistics of the .308 will really shine in comparison to the .223/5.56. Also, the words "budget" and "precision" (as you probably well-know from FT-R) are mutually exclusive terms that seldom co-exist. If you want to accomplish your goals as stated, worry less about the cost and more about the quality of the components you are sourcing for your project.

As for your .223/5.56 M&P option, you are looking at ~$500 shipped for a 18-22" JP .223 barrel which will INCLUDE a matched, properly headspaced enhanced bolt that you can run in your current carrier (JP has both the 18" and 22" medium contour tubes in stock and ready to roll out the door NOW...22" is getting LONG though so I'd personally opt for a shorter tube like the 18" and live with the slight loss in MV you'll experience). You'll also need a new gas system (block and gas tube as you'll be going to a different size journal and different length gas system). That cost can vary widely as well depending on what features you want/need (adjustable vs. non., etc.), but figure on another $75-100 for those components as well. As for triggers, you are looking at a pretty wide margin for cost, but for ~$210 or so, I'd opt for a Geissele, non-adjustable, SSA-E (one of my favorites) for a 2-stage or if you really want a single-stage, then the JP trigger isn't a bad option either and will run you ~$225 or so for the complete fire control kit including both trigger/hammer, pins and spring kit. HOWEVER...the spending/upgrading doesn't stop there! You'll need to select a quality free-float handguard to use with the new barrel combo as the current M&P setup won't really work all that well for you/your stated purposes (you didn't state what upgrades you have done thus far, so I'm assuming on this one). Depending on which handguard you select, that'll run you another $175-350. Finally, you'll need to select optics (if your current optic/mount combo won't get done the job you want/need to do) and possibly a new stock. Not counting any upgrades to optics, stocks, etc., I'd say say you are looking at somewhere around $1k give or take to get your M&P in the condition you'll need it to be in for your stated purposes.

As for building a large-frame AR from the ground up...it is really entirely too big a project to even talk about possible costs, but I can assure you that it'll be SIGNIFICANTLY more than the costs to upgrade your current AR based on that fact that you'll need everything from a receiver set to a LPK to trigger to...well...you get the idea. Even cutting corners and going cheap on your build (see comments above on mutual exclusivity of cost and precision), you are probably looking at close to $2k (again...best "guess" as there is a LOT that goes into such a build).

Also, be aware that each competition (especially 3-gun) has different divisions and that your equipment, whichever path you choose to take, will have to conform accordingly. Use that as a guide as to what you want/need before you spend anything on anything! Also, it would help to know exactly HOW MUCH you are wanting to spend (or limited to spending) as to perhaps being able to point you in the "best" direction in terms of which path to take and what to do once you have chosen a particular path).

Hope that helps!

 

[tj223]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let me try to clarify:

If money was no object, I would purchase a JP LRP-07 in .308 and rock and roll, but I don't want to drop $3500 at the moment.


I am able to spend around $1500.

So a DPMS LR-308 in 18" would fit the bill, or a used SASS. I saw one earlier on here for $1750 pretty much new.

vs

New JP Supermatch barrel and JP EZ Trigger for my current setup in .223. I'm guessing I could do this for around $800.



The advice I am looking for is would the .308 outperform the .223 out to 600 yards, and if so would the difference be substantial for my applications?

 

[tj223]

If you are a competent semi-auto shooter, then MOA or better accuracy out to 600yds is certainly more than do-able with either of your above-stated options, however your average .223/5.56 AR won't be worth much if you REALLY are going to have to be taking precision shots out to 1k as stated in the course of fire overview for Mammoth (I realize you are likely shooting #2 and don't intend to engage any of the longer-range targets). Obviously, beyond 600-700yds is where the ballistics of the .308 will really shine in comparison to the .223/5.56. Also, the words "budget" and "precision" (as you probably well-know from FT-R) are mutually exclusive terms that seldom co-exist. If you want to accomplish your goals as stated, worry less about the cost and more about the quality of the components you are sourcing for your project.

As for your .223/5.56 M&P option, you are looking at ~$500 shipped for a 18-22" JP .223 barrel which will INCLUDE a matched, properly headspaced enhanced bolt that you can run in your current carrier (JP has both the 18" and 22" medium contour tubes in stock and ready to roll out the door NOW...22" is getting LONG though so I'd personally opt for a shorter tube like the 18" and live with the slight loss in MV you'll experience). You'll also need a new gas system (block and gas tube as you'll be going to a different size journal and different length gas system). That cost can vary widely as well depending on what features you want/need (adjustable vs. non., etc.), but figure on another $75-100 for those components as well. As for triggers, you are looking at a pretty wide margin for cost, but for ~$210 or so, I'd opt for a Geissele, non-adjustable, SSA-E (one of my favorites) for a 2-stage or if you really want a single-stage, then the JP trigger isn't a bad option either and will run you ~$225 or so for the complete fire control kit including both trigger/hammer, pins and spring kit. HOWEVER...the spending/upgrading doesn't stop there! You'll need to select a quality free-float handguard to use with the new barrel combo as the current M&P setup won't really work all that well for you/your stated purposes (you didn't state what upgrades you have done thus far, so I'm assuming on this one). Depending on which handguard you select, that'll run you another $175-350. Finally, you'll need to select optics (if your current optic/mount combo won't get done the job you want/need to do) and possibly a new stock. Not counting any upgrades to optics, stocks, etc., I'd say say you are looking at somewhere around $1k give or take to get your M&P in the condition you'll need it to be in for your stated purposes.

As for building a large-frame AR from the ground up...it is really entirely too big a project to even talk about possible costs, but I can assure you that it'll be SIGNIFICANTLY more than the costs to upgrade your current AR based on that fact that you'll need everything from a receiver set to a LPK to trigger to...well...you get the idea. Even cutting corners and going cheap on your build (see comments above on mutual exclusivity of cost and precision), you are probably looking at close to $2k (again...best "guess" as there is a LOT that goes into such a build).

Also, be aware that each competition (especially 3-gun) has different divisions and that your equipment, whichever path you choose to take, will have to conform accordingly. Use that as a guide as to what you want/need before you spend anything on anything! Also, it would help to know exactly HOW MUCH you are wanting to spend (or limited to spending) as to perhaps being able to point you in the "best" direction in terms of which path to take and what to do once you have chosen a particular path).

Hope that helps!

Thanks for the reply.

My mp has a low profile gas block and a rifle length yhm tube.

Optics are taken care of for both situations, I have a NF I will be throwing on either.



I guess I am over complicating my question still tho...

600 yards and under, will I benefit from a SASS-type 308 over a 223 with a decent barrel (with all the fixings)?


Bottom line, I prefer the 223 because reloading is cheaper, the rifle will be lighter, less recoil, and i can 3gun with it as well. But, I don't want to drop $1k into my 223 and still want more performance under 600.

 

[ksthomas]

Out to 600, you're not really looking a huge disadvantage for the 223, so long as you're running bullets with a decent BC, and running them at 2,750 fps or so. You can meet that spec with a 22" no problem, though I'd b doubtful about it in an 18" barrel. Once you start getting past this, you really need to get into the specialty bullets in the 223, such as the 80s and 82s, which means single-loading them. At that point the advantage is all with the 308, which can still be magazine fed with something like one of the various 175s. These should make it out to 900-1000 yards without too much difficulty, so long as you're using a decent load.

You seem to be fairly focused in on the JP barrel, and I think tat's a mistake. Lots of very good choices out there that you might want to look at more closely. For the price ranges you're wanting to stay within, you're most likely going to be sticking with a buttoned barrel, but the cut barrels are definitely worth a look. A bit more, but barrels are the one place that you want the very best.

 

[tj223]

Oh and if I wanted to shoot 700+ I would just hump my TR gun.

 

[tj223]

Out to 600, you're not really looking a huge disadvantage for the 223, so long as you're running bullets with a decent BC, and running them at 2,750 fps or so. You can meet that spec with a 22" no problem, though I'd b doubtful about it in an 18" barrel. Once you start getting past this, you really need to get into the specialty bullets in the 223, such as the 80s and 82s, which means single-loading them. At that point the advantage is all with the 308, which can still be magazine fed with something like one of the various 175s. These should make it out to 900-1000 yards without too much difficulty, so long as you're using a decent load.

You seem to be fairly focused in on the JP barrel, and I think tat's a mistake. Lots of very good choices out there that you might want to look at more closely. For the price ranges you're wanting to stay within, you're most likely going to be sticking with a buttoned barrel, but the cut barrels are definitely worth a look. A bit more, but barrels are the one place that you want the very best.

I am not tied to the JP at all.
Quite the contrary, I have little to no knowledge of AR barrels, which is why I started this post. The JP was only an example starting point.


I know you guys have built these rifles 100's of times and I am looking for advice.


A 20" is what I am really leaning towards but I am open to all suggestions.


As far as bullets go, I was planning on the 75 VLDs or 77 SMKs for this gun.



I just didn't get into all the details because I wanted to make the 223 vs 308 decision first.

 

[tj223]

Also if I need to invest $750 in a barrel, I don't mind. I just meant I want this rifle to meet a certain level of performance (5" hits at 600yds) for as little as I can accomplish that.

 

[tj223]

OK well the purpose of this post was to see if upgrading my 223 would be more cost effective than buy a new rifle in 308 to accomplish my specific goals. And it seems that the consensus is yes.

I will make a new thread on my build.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[van462]

How about a grendel upper and upgrade the trigger. Use your existing upper for 3 gun.