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Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?

Oh yes...there are many folks shooting PP bullets! You just have to be on some of the forums that follow blackpowder shooting!
 
It goes back in my own history of shooting. Probably like anyone else here.

I started shooting modern scoped rifles, Sav 340, Rem 700 and Win. 70's. For .22's my dad had a horrible Nylon 76. Then one day he decided he wanted a really good .22 so he could shoot jackrabbits consistently. Thus he purchased a Rem 580. It was single shot, but had the look and feel of a slightly reduced R700. Although considered modern, the scopes we used were barely newer than the WWII classics you see. But, they were, if only slightly, improved. They mounted up a lot more standard too. So, most of my shooting before I went into the Army in 1981, was with scopes. My cousins shot open sighted pump .22's, but I outshot them consistently.

Enter a whole new reality when it came to shooting open sights. My personal opinion, leaning towards dislike, of open sights is probably the reason I never got very good at them early on. Probably also the reason I struggled with shooting the M16 accurately. When the Army told me I wasn't making the grade as far as a shooter, something inside me said you better listen up and try to make it work. So, try I did, but not with great success. The two necessary qualifications to keep me in the Rangers were because of shooting long enough on the range to get a lucky score. I did that twice in six months. Then, luck intervened in the form of a former competitive shooter. Our S2 had been a former Marine, who spent a number of years on their competition shooting team. During a deployment to Puerto Rico, He gave us a half day of instruction and another day and a half of helping us implement what he taught. For the rest of my time in the Army, I never failed to max out on my qualification. That was three more years of 1-2 quals every six months.

When I got out, I returned to shooting mostly scoped rifles. But now, I could pick up one of my cousins pump .22's and shoot a 5" group with it at 100 yds., offhand. This isn't going to win any competitions, but it was certainly a lot better than how I shot open sights from before. My cousins also wanted to know how to do that. There's quite a difference between M16 peeps and old Remchester buckhorns. But, the basic premise is the same. After some instruction, we were all putting together 2"-3" groups from the prone or rest. About the same off the knee. Needless to say, our jackrabbit excursions got a lot more productive.

As time passed, I drew more back to scoped rifles. Mostly for hunting, but I also took up benchrest shooting. Shooting tight groups brought me back to one of the last things I did in the service and that was running the sniper training blocks we conducted in the 1st Ranger BN. Understand, I was not a sniper. More like waterboy. Working all the logistics behind the training and then doing the grading and giving feedback on the men going through that training. These were not sniper schools, just 'standardized' training we did to keep the men who did go through a school up to speed with that skill. Much like I went through 'scuba requals' every six months. In any case, I felt that training was very important. And, was quite fascinated by the ability it took to shoot long range accurately. Strange thing though, prior to us conducting that training, the 1st Ranger Bn, never consistently held that training. We may have been the first of the modern Ranger, sniper program. A dedicated training regimen to people who had gone through a higher level of training in long range precision shooting on the battlefield.

Fast forward to the early nineties. I got the bug (from a fellow aviation maintenance classmate) to sporterize old Mausers. They were all over the place and cheap. I started with a M1909 and made a .257 Rob. out of it. Later, I got an M48 BO. I learned at this point you shouldn't chop one up to make your own custom. While not really rare, they are unique. The list and types grew exponentially over the next few years. I didn't chop up whole or original rifles that I could add parts back to, to make original. In the meantime, my benchrest shooting had grown to include long range shooting. At some point shooting historical rifles at short range, I saw that they were mostly calibrated for 1200-2000m. It all kind of gelled then. I started shooting old sights and then shooting old scopes on those old rifles at long range. Some of these older rifles were fantastically accurate. Open or scoped sights.

One could say that's getting in touch with the soul of your shooting side. Going back to how you started then going full circle.
 
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Because it keeps me in touch with my roots! To understand what I'm talking about you'd have had to have started out in 1952 shooting an 03A3 Springfield with bullets you had cast and applied gas checks to! My Dad bought me one of these when I was 12 years of age and told me...."There's the reloading room and the casting pot so if you want to shoot....learn to cast and load"....and he taught me all about doing just that! I've been the entire gambit; irons to glass, modern rifles, the Old Dead Guys shooting Sharps, shooting with the MTU at Ft. Benning years ago on the Service Rifle Squad and now....I get total enjoyment out of shooting all of 'em! But I can truthfully say that I get more enjoyment out of putting rounds into a target using irons from long range than I do using the modern stuff! At 73 years of age my eyes certainly aren't what they were at 20 but I can still see well enough to keep all my rounds inside a 20" bull from 500 yards using the issue sights on an 03A3 Springfield and I lose damn few from the 600 yard line. If you don't think it's a challenge....try it!!
 
Sharpsman,

I too am lucky in that my dad got me reloading early. It's not work if you like it. My favorite long range open sighter is my K-31. I loaded up some 175 SMK's in it with 52 gr. of H4831. For a 1k shot, I Raised the rear sight to 900 and got a first round hit on a 4 moa steel gong. Followed by several more. Four other people that day were able to do the same thing with it. As a kid I never would have imagined that possible. FWIW, I never did take anything like that out to 1k when I was in the Army either. Doing it now is pretty impressive to me.
 
Well said gents. Build your skill set then add to it with glass.

 
Fuzzy front sight!

Darn! It must be nice to have good eyes. With my eyes, the front sight is fuzzy. I need a scope. Nice shooting!

You need to try these:

Champion's Choice - Detail1 - K1040 - KNOBLOCH FRAMES W/37mm LENS HOLDER,ADJ NOSE PIECE,CARRY CASE - Safety Accessories - Champion's Choice

Has 37MM lens which can be ordered in various diopter strengths. Unless you have extreme medical problems involving vision the usage of the correct diopter strength could help cure that 'fuzzy' front sight. If you're using your vision correctly the bull/target should appear somewhat blurred anyway as your eye cannot focus at two different places at the same time. But it's imperative that a shooter be able to see the front sight clearly....whether using a post front sight or the aperture sight. It's also a 'trade off' with older eyes as you must select a diopter strength such that the one chosen doesn't totally wipe out the target but at the same time one which will improve your vision by doing away with the fuzzy front sight!
 
When I bought my first 03A4 (about 1978 or 79) I took it over to my uncle's house in Maryland. Uncle Robert had been in the US Army in the Korean War. He looked the rifle over and told me that he and his buddy used to go out every day looking for enemy soldiers (didn't call'em that). He said one day he carried the 03A4 and his buddy carried an M1 Garand and the next day they'd switch guns. He told me some stories about shooting that 03A4 and how stupid a couple young guys in combat can get.

Every time I take that rifle to the range (I used to actually deer hunt with it many years ago) I think about my Uncle Robert and his stories, and the look in his eyes when he was telling them to me. Uncle Robert is gone now, but his memory lives on.
 
Darn! It must be nice to have good eyes. With my eyes, the front sight is fuzzy. I need a scope. Nice shooting!

When I started to have this problem, I tried some drugstore reading glasses, and they helped a lot. Nowadays I have prescription glasses for both distance and reading (I'm one of those folks who can't deal with bifocals). I get them from the VA, they are made by US Army contractors, and my Optometrist is very happy to include my shooting vision/eye safety needs in the glasses I get.

Greg
 
I like the idea of the old sniper rifles , BUT in actual use , I feel I would be disappointed , most of that is because of the standard of the optics that are used .
For me , instead of nice WWII rigs , like the No4T , Mauser etc , the oldest I will go back , will be the 80s , with the likes of the Parker Hale C3A1 ( M87 ) , Parker Hale M85 & the M40A1 .

As these are to me much more usuable from a practical stand point , I still like the look of the WWII rigs , but , I am more a shooter , than a collector .

Each to their own ,

Later Chris
 
Depends, impacts on steel at a 1000 yards from an 70 years old rifle sounds great in the early morning.
 
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They are tools that still have life in them. If my framing hammer breaks I'll get another. But the old one works fine after 40+ years. The rifles I keep do the job. I'll be dust long before they turn into garden stakes.

My six year old has claimed one of my T's. So it continues, skills passed from one to another and the old rifle given freely to the next caretaker. As it should be!
 
I like the idea of the old sniper rifles , BUT in actual use , I feel I would be disappointed , most of that is because of the standard of the optics that are used .
For me , instead of nice WWII rigs , like the No4T , Mauser etc , the oldest I will go back , will be the 80s , with the likes of the Parker Hale C3A1 ( M87 ) , Parker Hale M85 & the M40A1 .

As these are to me much more usuable from a practical stand point , I still like the look of the WWII rigs , but , I am more a shooter , than a collector .

Each to their own ,

Later Chris


ChrisF,

I have to say I really like the Parker Hale rifles as well. But really, they are not much more than the standard Mauser with modern optics. I love clear glass, don't get me wrong. But, getting to shoot some of the older, incredibly accurate pieces produced before them gives a level of satisfaction I hadn't achieved for a long time in rifle shooting.

One of the more interesting ones was a 9.3x62 heavy barrel I got to shoot. A, "lets see how much weight we can get moving fast enough" concept round. That concept was eventually dropped. I would say probably when the U.S. Adopted the .50 cal. Around the same time frame Norma was working with the .338 magnum concept, only to see any U.S. interest fade. Somewhere along the line somebody kept it going and today everybody, except mainstream American snipers, has the .338 Lapua.

FWIW, I now own a 9.3x62 in a lightweight Husqvarna hunting rifle (947E). It's an ass-kicker to shoot as it's only 6 1/2 lbs.

Added:

Old or new(er), I still like getting my hands on them and seeing how good I can make them shoot. I too am a shooter more than a collector.
 
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Just to keep going, Last week I shot the Vintage Sniper Match the CMP put on in Cody last week. It was the first match I shot with my 'A4. I impressed myself with this rifle, the action is a '43 model, as is the barrel. I just hope I'm doing as well when I'm 70. (only have four more years to go). The rifle did good enough at 300 and 600 to get me and my partner a Bronze metal.

I've shot some fairly good 600 yards scores in my high power days, but I don't think I enjoyed those near as much as shooting my 'A4 at 600.

Also after seeing what it did at 600 convinced me that it's going to be my this years elk rifle.

I just came in from getting zeros for some 190 Berger's.

If I muff shooting at elk, I'm convinced it would be my fault, not this old war horse.

Not a sniper rifle but a few weeks ago I shot a 3 gun match using my unmodified '98 30-40 Krag. That was a kick in the butt. Granted its not as fast to reload as an AR but when you hit steel with those 220 gr slugs, there is no doubt you hit it.
 
Although the Parker Hale does use a Mauser 98 type bolt , the action/receiver is quite different , it basically is a more closed/reinforced Mauser , has a ejection port cutout only on the LH side at the 3 oclock posn , uses M14 type magazines , and quite importantly has a longer barrel/action , thread in ( tunion lenght ) than the std Mauser , thats to support a barrel thats a bit heavier than a sporter type weight barrel .

The M87 is similar , but with out a longer tunion .

Cheers Chris
 
Speaking of which, I'm still waiting on the pics of last years elk you took with the MPC I sold you

I put the MPC on my Model 70 Featherweight in 257 Roberts which in my opinion is a bit light for elk. As you know the MPC has 18 inch stadium lines, making it perfect for deer size animals. Deer on the average are 18 inches from the top of the back to the bottom of the stomach. (Elk are 25 inches).

When you first sent me the MPC, I set on my back porch with the scoped rifle and a range finder, practicing ranging deer. I'd range the deer with the MPC and confirm or deny my estimations with a range finder. The Scope is perfect for deer.

Thanks again for selling it to me.
 
I put the MPC on my Model 70 Featherweight in 257 Roberts which in my opinion is a bit light for elk. As you know the MPC has 18 inch stadium lines, making it perfect for deer size animals. Deer on the average are 18 inches from the top of the back to the bottom of the stomach. (Elk are 25 inches).

When you first sent me the MPC, I set on my back porch with the scoped rifle and a range finder, practicing ranging deer. I'd range the deer with the MPC and confirm or deny my estimations with a range finder. The Scope is perfect for deer.

Thanks again for selling it to me.

You are welcome! I'm glad it went somewhere, where someone really appreciates it. I never thought about it being so ideal for deer. I had about given up on that when I lived in Minnesota. I'm back in the chase for them now that I've moved to Idaho. Talk about a classic sniper ranging system.

Regarding the .257 Roberts, that is one wonderful round. I agree, light for elk, although it can be done. Can be done is nowhere near as potent as with what else I've got for them now. We may have talked on the subject, but what's your favorite loads for the .257 Rob.?

My dad's old load was 41 gr. of IMR 4895 ( or just 4895 before Hodgdon changed) behind a 87 gr. spitzer. I loaded a lot of 60 and 75 gr. bullets in his rifle. Also worked up a 4831 load with 100 gr. bullets. His is 1-12" twist so won't stabilize the heavy spitzers. Mine will. I'm partial to RE-17 and RE-19
 
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Smelling the wood of a vintage sniper rifle as I cheek weld the weapon is very cool in my book.
 
don't get me wrong I want a vintage sniper rifle, but I do not know anything about these. I would love to get one if they don't cost too much and I can get ammo. Oh and does a c sharps 405win count? also I would like some recommendation on a rifle. I like to "clean up" things like fix stocks, tune trigger, cut down (if needed), just making it my own.
 
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You are welcome! I'm glad it went somewhere, where someone really appreciates it. I never thought about it being so ideal for deer. I had about given up on that when I lived in Minnesota. I'm back in the chase for them now that I've moved to Idaho. Talk about a classic sniper ranging system.

Regarding the .257 Roberts, that is one wonderful round. I agree, light for elk, although it can be done. Can be done is nowhere near as potent as with what else I've got for them now. We may have talked on the subject, but what's your favorite loads for the .257 Rob.?

My dad's old load was 41 gr. of IMR 4895 ( or just 4895 before Hodgdon changed) behind a 87 gr. spitzer. I loaded a lot of 60 and 75 gr. bullets in his rifle. Also worked up a 4831 load with 100 gr. bullets. His is 1-12" twist so won't stabilize the heavy spitzers. Mine will. I'm partial to RE-17 and RE-19

My dad has a 257 weatherby, it shoots 115 scary fast, but it does bite a little since its light.
 
My dad has a 257 weatherby, it shoots 115 scary fast, but it does bite a little since its light.

Yes they do. But, don't discount the 115 in a .257 in front of some RE-17. Or, RE-19 or even RE-22 Barrel length helps but with the right load I was getting 3200 with 115 Bergers in my .257 (26")
 
Don't get the wrong idea from the title of this thread. I'm not a troll spoiling for a cyber brawl. Rather, I'm a true fan of vintage rifles, and I wanted to create a place for others to tell why they are fans too.

In an age where we are drawing ever near to a firearm that will shoot by itself. One that will possess intrinsic accuracy at extreme ranges, and will be fired not by the stroke of a trigger, but the stroke of a key. Here rifles like my 1903A4, hell my 700P's for that matter, look like aging if not obsolete warriors on the modern digital battlefield. In this day and age, why would anyone want to bother with the tedious intricacies of an ancient rifle and optic. Here's why.

The older systems required RIFLEMEN; not computer whiz kids, or video game champions. To really master the vintage rifles (and master them one must to employ them effectively), a rifleman had to not only posses a through understanding of the rifle itself, but the cartridge it fired AND that cartridge's trajectory. He had to have sense of nature, and a feel for things like wind, and temperature. He had to actually shoot in his operational environment, and closely observe any deviation in his point of impact so it could be taken into consideration during future shots. In short, it took effort to shoot well at long distances. And when one had put forth such effort, and gained the requisite knowledge to accurately employ his rifle, he could rightfully take pride in his accomplishment.

That sense of accomplishment as well as a feeling of fraternity with those great riflemen of the past is why I shoot a vintage Sniper rifle. How about you?

HRF

I completely agree with your post, well done.
 
I like the idea of the old sniper rifles , BUT in actual use , I feel I would be disappointed , most of that is because of the standard of the optics that are used .
For me , instead of nice WWII rigs , like the No4T , Mauser etc , the oldest I will go back , will be the 80s , with the likes of the Parker Hale C3A1 ( M87 ) , Parker Hale M85 & the M40A1 .

As these are to me much more usuable from a practical stand point , I still like the look of the WWII rigs , but , I am more a shooter , than a collector .

Each to their own ,

Later Chris

You have lots of time with the #32 MkI~MkIII #4 and 40X AJAX Mauser? Just asking so I can understand how you are so sure you would be disappointed.

Cheers
...MJ...
 
The optics are usually 3-3.5x in most cases , so very low magnification compared to what is used now , just happier using better optics , like the Unertl /MST-100 scopes or the kahles/Swaro .
Also the wood stocks are not as stable as fibreglass in rain etc , although my M87 has at the moment a wood stock , I plan on using a McMillan A2 on it just like the Canadians do .

Donot get me wrong , I like the look of the old WWII sniper rifles , BUT as the price of a real one or a replica is so high , its too close to say a AI AW , and as I said before its got to be a shooter .
So for me its more practical for me to use late 70s to early 80s stuff , which is why interested in the M40A1s & Parker Hales from that era .

Later Chris
 
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Here's a pic of my Parker Hale M85 & M87 ( Canadian C3A1 ) ,


Hi Chris, that 85 is a highly impressive bit of gear - congratulations. Sounds like your the right bloke to ask about most things Parker Hale: Most of the histories of the parker hales in Canadian service seem to suggest that the C3a1 was simply an upgrade of some components on the M82/C3 rifles, however Clive Laws "Without Warning" states even the action was replaced by that of the M87 - are there any components at all that are common between both rifles? (sounds a lot like "grandfathers axe" i.e both head and handle having been replaced over the years.) And wondering if you have any good sources of info regarding the later parker hales from the 1200 tx's/ M82 -onwards. (already got skennerton's commonwealth sniper rifles and Laws "without warning") can you suggest any others? the later ones are particularly interesting and there seems to be a distinct lack of anything written about them? Thanks
 
Here is one of mine. It is not a sniper rifle to my knowledge but it was built by the USMC as a target rifle.

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Mike @ CSTACTICAL
 
I got one built by the AMU. A Model 70 in 308 I got from the CMP Auction Site. Sucker's a shooter.

DSCN0101.JPG
 
Here is one of mine. It is not a sniper rifle to my knowledge but it was built by the USMC as a target rifle.

562921_610685235640660_2113598522_n.jpg


Mike @ CSTACTICAL

I'd also say it's not a sniper rifle. But, it's about a close a representation of one you can find, without getting the real thing.
 
Here is one of mine. It is not a sniper rifle to my knowledge but it was built by the USMC as a target rifle.

562921_610685235640660_2113598522_n.jpg


Mike @ CSTACTICAL

To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the WW2 rifles sent for testing, non of them were built as sniper rifles originally. Some were indeed used in the sniper role anyway. There are period pictures of them being used in Nam.
 
what sights are those Kraig?

Forgot, I don't remember if those are my Redfield Olympic or my Redfield Palma that's shown in the picture. I have both. I also an old Weaver T-10 target scope which is on it now.
 
The optics are usually 3-3.5x in most cases , so very low magnification compared to what is used now , just happier using better optics , like the Unertl /MST-100 scopes or the kahles/Swaro .
Also the wood stocks are not as stable as fibreglass in rain etc , although my M87 has at the moment a wood stock , I plan on using a McMillan A2 on it just like the Canadians do .

Donot get me wrong , I like the look of the old WWII sniper rifles , BUT as the price of a real one or a replica is so high , its too close to say a AI AW , and as I said before its got to be a shooter .
So for me its more practical for me to use late 70s to early 80s stuff , which is why interested in the M40A1s & Parker Hales from that era .

Later Chris

I have a friend who has the PH actually I think he has both the 85 and 87. He shoots in international matches representing his his country on the national service rifle team against all the modern rifles with the No3, #4T and Mauser rifles and wins and makes many center cuts at 900 and 1000M.

I shoot my #4s and Mauser and you can't possibly say the 3.4X #32 or AJAX can not shoot 1000+ yards, not by myself, in good hands and have for 70 years.

Just saying your statement is painting with a very broad brush unless you have experience with the classic rifles. I was just asking to understand the dismissive statement. Nice rifle in your photo by the way and I'm sure you both get high marks. Thanks for the post.

 
Hi Brian ,

yeap , Clives book is about the only real source for info I have used to piece together my clone of a C3A1 rifle , and it would have been better to have just changed to the M85 , it was all about sneaking it past the accountants , and as such , it was easier to say it was a upgrade , rather than a all out replacement , so less in money & time etc , trialls etc .

RE : The rifle , its my understanding that the ONLY new pieces of kit , where a new barrel , new M87 action & new one piece scope mount made specially for the Unertl ( this scope was calibrated for the Norma 170gr ammo & in Metres ) .
The original M82 bolt was used , as was the wooden stock , later , a upgrade on some of the 570 odd C3A1 sniper rifles , was a fibreglass A2 McMillan stock .

As luck would have it , my C3A1 clone will be back from the gunsmith soon , and will post pics then of her , I will run her in the wood M87 McHale type stock , until I can get me hands on the correct McM A2 glass stock .

mines a bit different , in that I have had the muzzle threaded for a can , just had to do that ,

RE : my M85 , yeap , I treasure it as one of my OLD school rifles , spent a few yrs looking for one , mine is un shootable at the moment as I have no mounts for her , BUT have decided to have my gunsmith make a set up , and have also deciced to pull the front sight OFF , so can use a 3D printed TI can .


Cheers Chris
 
RE : my M85 , yeap , I treasure it as one of my OLD school rifles
Man, throw some of us a bone by not capitalizing the word "old" when talking about a rifle adopted in the mid 1980's. Damn!:D

They're beauties, though and I would love to have one some day. ;)

John
 
I consider the Mauser 1898 to be a old design , and thats what the Parker Hales are based on .
Although the PH M85 is about the same age as say the AI PM ( the model before the AW , and very simlar ) , the actual action & bolt is virtually indentical to a Mauser 1898 , if you are familar with the 98 Mauser then you are also familar with most of the Parker Hale rifles .
The ejector on the PHs is in the 9 oclock posn , not changed like say the Win70 .
The Parker Hale M82 , which is known as the C3 sniper rifle , & was adopted by Aussie , Canada & NZ , dates to the 60s .


Later Chris
 
Here are some photos of my Swede M41B 6.5x55 Sniper rifle that was built in 1903

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Hendsoldt AJACK 4x sniper scope on Swede M41B 6.5x55 Sniper rifle.
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Mike @ CSTACTICAL
 
That Swede is a beauty Mike! This thread is just heaping full of amazing pieces of wood and steel and I'm enjoying looking at them all.
 
I love the history and the kill counts of vintage rifles (especially the ever doubted Mosin nagant). I was at a range where a guy had a complete vintage Mosin with a 4x scope and he shot way better than my friend and his "custom 700". I was impressed, and now I want one for my collection

lol I thought you were the guy that I met at the range a couple of weeks ago when I was shooting my PU sniper at the 1000 yard range.:D