Back up for some 168vld info.....
- Thread starter Barney88PDC
- Start date
It's expensive Graf & Sons has Nosler brass in stock.
My stevens 200 7 SAUM with B&C stock
24" Criterion barrel LV
162 amax
Rem brass / FL with .002" tension
H4350 @ 59.0grs OCW method
Wolf Large Rifle Primer
COAL @ 2.940"
3000 fps @ 2000' ASL
100 meters
24" Criterion barrel LV
162 amax
Rem brass / FL with .002" tension
H4350 @ 59.0grs OCW method
Wolf Large Rifle Primer
COAL @ 2.940"
3000 fps @ 2000' ASL
100 meters
180 hybrid on short action pls....robert@rws juat finished my built sher on her way home.
Spec:
Rem700 sa mag
30" krieger 1:8.75
Fluted abd cerecoated.
My aics Ax jewell and nightforce are all waiting., i need help on start up load
I got 180 hybrid bullets, 4831sc rl25 h1000 and retumbo to start on.fed 215 primer.
Norma 300 saum brass that ill ne necking down to 7mm using forster dies..
Spec:
Rem700 sa mag
30" krieger 1:8.75
Fluted abd cerecoated.
My aics Ax jewell and nightforce are all waiting., i need help on start up load
I got 180 hybrid bullets, 4831sc rl25 h1000 and retumbo to start on.fed 215 primer.
Norma 300 saum brass that ill ne necking down to 7mm using forster dies..
Bjay,
H1000 is where it's at for the 180's in my testing. Retumbo was too slow and H4831sc was too fast for the 180's. With H4831sc I hit pressure before getting to my desired speed. 58.0 of H1000 should be a REALLY safe place to start. Run it over a chrono and start lookin once you get to 2900. The middle 60's is probably where you will end up.
H1000 is where it's at for the 180's in my testing. Retumbo was too slow and H4831sc was too fast for the 180's. With H4831sc I hit pressure before getting to my desired speed. 58.0 of H1000 should be a REALLY safe place to start. Run it over a chrono and start lookin once you get to 2900. The middle 60's is probably where you will end up.
Do you think its posible to hit 3050 on fps using 180hybrid with h1000? With my 30" barrel?
My kid is shooting 168vld hunters with 60gr of 4831sc out of CBI barrel and getting great accuracy shoots around .2 at 200yds and under 3.5 inch at 800yds. She says h1000 is faster but not as accurate. all coal are at 2.950 with a freebore of .090.
Done chasing a load, the above load is it.
squin, thanks again for sharing your reamer specs, FB is perfect for the Hybrids.
More from me as I continue to learn about the 7 SAUM.
I have had the rifle (26" Krieger 9twist on a short action) and load (180gr Hybrid pointed, over H4831sc in Nosler and Remington brass) out in WY and at Alleghany Sniper Challenge.
My conclusions:
(1) H4831sc is too fast for the 180gr Hybrid, producing pressure signs. Great accuracy and low muzzle velocity variation, but beats the crap out of the brass.
(2) H4831sc is great for the 162/168gr weight class.
(3) Remington brass has a larger flash hole and as such results in pressure signs before the Nosler brass does. Otherwise, the two cases are both very similar in the field - each offered low MV variation and very good precision on paper. I did weight sort the Remington brass and sold about 1/3 of the lot because it was significantly less weight than the other 2/3.
I'm now going down the H-1000 and Retumbo powder route, with priority on H-1000.
I have had the rifle (26" Krieger 9twist on a short action) and load (180gr Hybrid pointed, over H4831sc in Nosler and Remington brass) out in WY and at Alleghany Sniper Challenge.
My conclusions:
(1) H4831sc is too fast for the 180gr Hybrid, producing pressure signs. Great accuracy and low muzzle velocity variation, but beats the crap out of the brass.
(2) H4831sc is great for the 162/168gr weight class.
(3) Remington brass has a larger flash hole and as such results in pressure signs before the Nosler brass does. Otherwise, the two cases are both very similar in the field - each offered low MV variation and very good precision on paper. I did weight sort the Remington brass and sold about 1/3 of the lot because it was significantly less weight than the other 2/3.
I'm now going down the H-1000 and Retumbo powder route, with priority on H-1000.
Robert (rws) just fonished my 7saum barreled action...
Spec:
Trued rem 700 sa mag
Install and finished 30"
Barrel 1:8.75 krieger fluted heavy varmint
Install badger bolt knob and cerecoated
Seating on AX stock
Nf scope
Seekins 6/4 rings and aics ax base
Jewell trigger
Throated for bergehybrids
Heres first loads to brake in barrell
Using 3 diff powder on medium load and will chamber form 300 norma saum,
Necked down to 7mm
180 hybrids all seating 2.955 .010 off land
Spec:
Trued rem 700 sa mag
Install and finished 30"
Barrel 1:8.75 krieger fluted heavy varmint
Install badger bolt knob and cerecoated
Seating on AX stock
Nf scope
Seekins 6/4 rings and aics ax base
Jewell trigger
Throated for bergehybrids
Heres first loads to brake in barrell
Using 3 diff powder on medium load and will chamber form 300 norma saum,
Necked down to 7mm
180 hybrids all seating 2.955 .010 off land
Ill be shooting her this afternoon.. update to folow.. wish me luck lol.
By the way im using H1000 4831sc and rl25 on those loads
By the way im using H1000 4831sc and rl25 on those loads
Looking good. Hope its a one holer.
BJay-
Per QL, RL25 shows a lot of promise in 7 SAUM. Please let us know how that powder (and your others) shoot. Interested to hear.
Nice looking rig BTW.
Per QL, RL25 shows a lot of promise in 7 SAUM. Please let us know how that powder (and your others) shoot. Interested to hear.
Nice looking rig BTW.
So far we are jiving there. H1000 for 180's, H4831sc for 168's. The RL powders flucutate too much MV with temperature variations but please everyone keep ignoring that so there is more Hodgdon on the market.
Ok i got to shoot my r saum above..yesterday afternoon..few loads to brake in barrel look for presure sign and fps..heres wt i got.. as expected from people above tnx barney.. 4831sc definitely not the powder for me (all these test using 180hybrids).i got all the way to 61gr and major preassure sign pushing only 2846.. rl25 i got all the way to 61.5 2968 still no pressure sign h1000 o made it to 63no preasure sign 2994..those are ave fps..if you got 28 or longer barrel like everyone saying saying you might want to start on slower powder like h1000 rl25 or retumbo..im going back tom for ladder test h1000 and rl25
Accuracy on 300 yard theyee on MOA but ill have to go with h1000 or rl25..this built were intended for 1kyard n above.
Accuracy on 300 yard theyee on MOA but ill have to go with h1000 or rl25..this built were intended for 1kyard n above.
I got faster speeds with Retumbo with good groups, but not as good as H-1000. I went up to 65.5g of Retumbo with some powder crunch. I think if I could squeeze 66.0g in the remmy case It would tighten up and would be around 3030fps in my 28" barrel. I just don't want to compress too much since I'm only .005" off the lands.
I just got my barreled action back from Roscoe at LA Precison. Mine is a hunting rifle and I built it on a long action. Here are the specs.....
Stiller Tac300 LA
Krieger 1:9tw #5 profile fluted @ 28" long
Setup to shoot necked down Nosler 300SAUM brass with NO neck turn
Throated for 180 hybrids
I need to bed the action to my stock, but other than that it's ready to go. From my research earlier in the year and with talking to William Roscoe, I knew that H1000 would be the powder to go with. I've already picked up 8lbs of it. I need to pick up some 180 hybrids. I already have some 168 VLD's, but plan to shoot the 180's. I'm hoping to get 2900+ fps out of it without beating up the high dollar brass. It's primarily a hunting rifle, so it won't be shot more than a couple hindered rounds a year I'm guessing.
Stiller Tac300 LA
Krieger 1:9tw #5 profile fluted @ 28" long
Setup to shoot necked down Nosler 300SAUM brass with NO neck turn
Throated for 180 hybrids
I need to bed the action to my stock, but other than that it's ready to go. From my research earlier in the year and with talking to William Roscoe, I knew that H1000 would be the powder to go with. I've already picked up 8lbs of it. I need to pick up some 180 hybrids. I already have some 168 VLD's, but plan to shoot the 180's. I'm hoping to get 2900+ fps out of it without beating up the high dollar brass. It's primarily a hunting rifle, so it won't be shot more than a couple hindered rounds a year I'm guessing.
You'll easily be able to achieve 2900fps..I've had mine to 3023fps with Retumbo but it just wasn't as accurate as 2932fps with the H-1000. Still very accurate especially for a hunting gun.
On the h1000 how many grain on 2932? Is this on short action whats your oal and is ut hybrid 180?
Tnx
Bjay
65.0g H-1000
Remmy case (neck turned to .015" per side)
180 hybrid
CCI 250
3.100 oal in a long action
This is .005" off the lands in my rifle which has a .188fb. I run a .317nk and turn necks down for .0025" bullet release. So loaded round is .3145 at the neck. Using a .313 neck sizing bushing which actually sizes to .3125 for .002" neck tension. Cases are pretty full and the load will be compressed in a short action. I tap them down and still get a little crunch.
Remmy case (neck turned to .015" per side)
180 hybrid
CCI 250
3.100 oal in a long action
This is .005" off the lands in my rifle which has a .188fb. I run a .317nk and turn necks down for .0025" bullet release. So loaded round is .3145 at the neck. Using a .313 neck sizing bushing which actually sizes to .3125 for .002" neck tension. Cases are pretty full and the load will be compressed in a short action. I tap them down and still get a little crunch.
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What is the max load for SHORT ACTION oal 2.950 combo 180 hybrid and h1000 for those who done testing
fps?
.
fps?
.
That is a good question and one that I'm going to try an answer this weekend. I have data on H-1000 max charges but it was when my barrel was brand new (<20rds thru it). I unfortunately decided to go with H4831sc and the 180gr Hybrids at 2.950". I had great results but it was too tough on brass. Testing this weekend H-1000 and Retumbo in my 26" Krieger 9 twist, short action. I will post result by charge up here.
My experience on h1000 on short action seating 2.955.this is with norma 300saum neck down to 7mm brass fed215 primer and 180hybrids.i got 30" barrel and while braking in barrel i was 61-63.5 and 63 youl start to see ejector marks.im leaving 4831sc i now beleive its suits for barrel thats shorter than 28" a lot of preasure sign with just 61gr..rl 25 is looking good 62 no presure sign at all.i loaded 62-63 in .2 grain increments H1000 each five rounds ill see how it shoots and check fps.also loaded 61.5-62.5 of rl25 im hoping ill find wt im looking for
OK, I got out to range this weekend to test slower powders (H-1000 and Retumbo). After struggling with H4831sc pressure signs in the big 180gr heavies, I decided to throw out that stuff and moved on in interest of saving the brass.
First specs on the load and rifle:
- Nosler brass, two or three firings on it
- Fed primers (210 I believe)
- 180gr Berger Hybrids
- Loaded to 2.950" OAL
- short action (Stiller Tac-30)
- custom chamber from PT&G putting the 180gr Hybrid 0.01" jump at 2.950" (chamber has 700 rds thru it, so its jumping more now I'm sure)
- Krieger 9 twist finished at 26" with a APA LB brake
Powders and charges tested (all loads tested with a Magneto barrel mounted magnetic chronograph that has proven good results):
Retumbo-
62.5grs - yielded avg MV of 2906 - absolute no pressure signs - extremely 'gentle' recoil impulse, a real pleasure to shoot
63.5grs - MV 2942 - no pressure signs - still a gentle recoil impulse
64.5grs - MV 2977 - no pressure signs on the brass or the bolt lift, but that gentle recoil impulse is turning harder
65.0grs - MV 3015 - little ejector mark, stiffer than normal bolt lift, no more gentle recoil impulse - this is the top of the safe pressure curve
H-1000-
61.0grs - MV 2895 - no pressure signs, but a sharp recoil impulse
62.0grs - MV 2915 - stiffer than normal bolt lift, sharp recoil impulse
63.0grs - MV 2955 - light ejector mark, stiff bolt lift, sharp recoil impulse - this is the top of the safe pressure curve
64.0grs - not fired
So, overall, I found Retumbo in the 62-64grs range a joy to shoot from a recoil perspective, good pressure curves and within the targetted MV objective (2900 or better). I plan on testing 62.0, 62.5 and 63.0 for more data on precision, ES/SD. This should put me a full 2 grains under the top of the safe pressure curve.
I'm dropping H-1000.
First specs on the load and rifle:
- Nosler brass, two or three firings on it
- Fed primers (210 I believe)
- 180gr Berger Hybrids
- Loaded to 2.950" OAL
- short action (Stiller Tac-30)
- custom chamber from PT&G putting the 180gr Hybrid 0.01" jump at 2.950" (chamber has 700 rds thru it, so its jumping more now I'm sure)
- Krieger 9 twist finished at 26" with a APA LB brake
Powders and charges tested (all loads tested with a Magneto barrel mounted magnetic chronograph that has proven good results):
Retumbo-
62.5grs - yielded avg MV of 2906 - absolute no pressure signs - extremely 'gentle' recoil impulse, a real pleasure to shoot
63.5grs - MV 2942 - no pressure signs - still a gentle recoil impulse
64.5grs - MV 2977 - no pressure signs on the brass or the bolt lift, but that gentle recoil impulse is turning harder
65.0grs - MV 3015 - little ejector mark, stiffer than normal bolt lift, no more gentle recoil impulse - this is the top of the safe pressure curve
H-1000-
61.0grs - MV 2895 - no pressure signs, but a sharp recoil impulse
62.0grs - MV 2915 - stiffer than normal bolt lift, sharp recoil impulse
63.0grs - MV 2955 - light ejector mark, stiff bolt lift, sharp recoil impulse - this is the top of the safe pressure curve
64.0grs - not fired
So, overall, I found Retumbo in the 62-64grs range a joy to shoot from a recoil perspective, good pressure curves and within the targetted MV objective (2900 or better). I plan on testing 62.0, 62.5 and 63.0 for more data on precision, ES/SD. This should put me a full 2 grains under the top of the safe pressure curve.
I'm dropping H-1000.
Ty sirfor sharing ive been waiting for your come back for the results...i couldnt shoot yester it was pouring..this confirm my findings that 63gr of h1000 realy max for us shorty action.. now ill start searchin for retumbo and try it.. im sure my longer barrel wil love slower powder
Again i apreciate you sharing results..
Bjay
My pleasure BJay- hopefully some of my data is of help. With 28" barrel, you might pick up 50fps over my numbers with Retumbo (I'm at 26" and you could be looking at 25fps/inch with Retumbo).
One thing I will caution: this is Nosler brass, NOT Remington. I have noticed that Nosler flash holes are smaller than Remington and perhaps result in better pressures. With the Remington brass and H4831sc, I was getting pressure signs much earlier and at much lower MVs than the Noslers. I have done no testing with Remigton brass and Retumbo or H-1000.
One thing I will caution: this is Nosler brass, NOT Remington. I have noticed that Nosler flash holes are smaller than Remington and perhaps result in better pressures. With the Remington brass and H4831sc, I was getting pressure signs much earlier and at much lower MVs than the Noslers. I have done no testing with Remigton brass and Retumbo or H-1000.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
BJ,
If speed is what you need, try RL-25.
If speed is what you need, try RL-25.
Im no planing to use remington brass atleast not soon i got enough 300 norma saum i necked down..i already droped 4831sc..my barrel is 30" .. so im guessing ill get to 3000 with no issue.. my buddy just droped 1lb retumbo ill try load today.. we al ready plan to shoot tom afternoon ill share results after..
Im furtunate enough budies that shoots magnum shared lb of each.. i already load 60-62.5 rl25 in .5 incriments ill also test fps tom.heres powder ive been playing with
ok lets keep this thread alive..heres my results today @ 400yd while doing load developing..dont mind me missing the paper target i can barely see impact at that distance so i just use paper as POA.
heres the whole target:
first target 62.30 h1000 (bolt begining to lift heavy)
2nd 62.00 RL25 (3shot) no presure sign bolt still easy to lift
3rd 62.50 RL25 as you see i barely in the paper at 62.00 gr (bolt still easy lift) so YES! I missed the whole target on this cos higher load already climed up lol (dont worry i saved the target next tym.no miss)
4th (bottom) 63.00 H1000 bolt hard to lift and ejector mark..max presure i would shoot
5th 62.60 H1000 bolt hard lift (but accurate)
6th 62.80 H1000 bolt hard groupd starting to open up
heres the whole target:
first target 62.30 h1000 (bolt begining to lift heavy)
2nd 62.00 RL25 (3shot) no presure sign bolt still easy to lift
3rd 62.50 RL25 as you see i barely in the paper at 62.00 gr (bolt still easy lift) so YES! I missed the whole target on this cos higher load already climed up lol (dont worry i saved the target next tym.no miss)
4th (bottom) 63.00 H1000 bolt hard to lift and ejector mark..max presure i would shoot
5th 62.60 H1000 bolt hard lift (but accurate)
6th 62.80 H1000 bolt hard groupd starting to open up
heres fps using a better more modern chrono
2nd group above: 62.00 RL25
3 shots fps, 2939/2921/2934 (i think its a decent speed)
shot #5
62.60 H100 4 shot fps 2847/2832/2859/2831 (kinda slow but accurate) bolt hard to lift..can someone tell me what moa is this result?
everyone is welcome to help on undertanding these results or opinion that maybe can help me to get better results..any advice i apreciate it..
scroll up a litle for rifle info..
2nd group above: 62.00 RL25
3 shots fps, 2939/2921/2934 (i think its a decent speed)
shot #5
62.60 H100 4 shot fps 2847/2832/2859/2831 (kinda slow but accurate) bolt hard to lift..can someone tell me what moa is this result?
everyone is welcome to help on undertanding these results or opinion that maybe can help me to get better results..any advice i apreciate it..
scroll up a litle for rifle info..
Sure, it is ~0.4 moa. To calculate approximate moa, simply divided the group size in inches by the range in yards and multiple the result by 100. So in this case, its: 1.6"/400yds * 100 = 0.4.
If you are getting a stiff bolt, don't use the load. Its overpressure and that pressure will kill the brass earlier. This is expensive brass that is hard to get. You don't want to kill the brass w/o getting 7-10reloads (or more) on them. Just my view
RL25 looks promising. I would abandon H-1000. I would also test Retumbo.
Ty sir.Sure, it is ~0.4 moa. To calculate approximate moa, simply divided the group size in inches by the range in yards and multiple the result by 100. So in this case, its: 1.6"/400yds * 100 = 0.4.
If you are getting a stiff bolt, don't use the load. Its overpressure and that pressure will kill the brass earlier. This is expensive brass that is hard to get. You don't want to kill the brass w/o getting 7-10reloads (or more) on them. Just my view
RL25 looks promising. I would abandon H-1000. I would also test Retumbo.
Ill try find retumbo and try them..your retumbo test up to to 65.50 isnt thst too compress.that proly full on case and seating the long hybrids on 2.950
BJay-
I didn't test 65.5gr of Retumbo. I stopped at 65.0 and actually saw pressure signs there. So test 62 to 64-ish. These are compressed at 2.950" OAL, in the 105-107%-ish, but that isn't a big deal.
Interesting thread guys! I'm shooting an FN SPR rebarreled with a Rock 8.7 twist 26" tube.
My best load to date uses Remy brass,mid 60's of H1000, Berger 180 vld's hbn coated. @ 2850.
In search of knowledge I tried a different combo yesterday. 59 to 66 gr. of Retumbo,180 gr. SMK's again hbn coated. Ye olde Magneto speed indicated 2962 fps with the 66 gr. charge. A bit of pressure was evident but within reason. No accuracy work was done but I will run a ladder from 62 grains on up. I don't expect the results to equal my H1000/Berger combo but one never knows.
My best load to date uses Remy brass,mid 60's of H1000, Berger 180 vld's hbn coated. @ 2850.
In search of knowledge I tried a different combo yesterday. 59 to 66 gr. of Retumbo,180 gr. SMK's again hbn coated. Ye olde Magneto speed indicated 2962 fps with the 66 gr. charge. A bit of pressure was evident but within reason. No accuracy work was done but I will run a ladder from 62 grains on up. I don't expect the results to equal my H1000/Berger combo but one never knows.
coming out from 26" barrel 2850 is great speed with 180 if accuracy is there, keep it try 2962 how great accuracy..thats incredible speed..but 62-66 retumbo i think its pretty compress..
His bullet is the 180gr SMK, not the Bergers. The SMK is ~0.10" shorter OAL and so you can get more powder keeping case OAL constant. THe SMK is considerably longer to the ogive however.
The 2850 load is with Berger 180 vld. Yes the accuracy is there. I'm trying the smk's cause I have them, and they were a fair bit cheaper than the Bergers. Same story with the Retumbo, I keep it to fill the 338lm,would be nice if it worked here.
On a side note, I had to unscrew the brake to get the Magneto to read. It sure seemed like the Retumbo was noticeably softer shooting than 1000. That would be terrible......
On a side note, I had to unscrew the brake to get the Magneto to read. It sure seemed like the Retumbo was noticeably softer shooting than 1000. That would be terrible......
I'm currently trying out 180 hybrids using Remington brass. I shot Ramshot Magnum at 450 yards today, and got really good results, but speeds were all over the place. I have a 24" barrel, and was thinking of trying out Retumbo since I have 2 lbs of it. I did get to 2920 fps with Magnum but stop at hard bolt lift.
mave you tried h1000 or 4831sc with the length of your barrel it should be good..i think magnum powder works better on 26+ barrel..my barrel is 30" and rl25 61gr im getting 2931 average.
A hunting buddy shot my 7 SAUM and liked it so much he decided to have one built for himself as a ELR hunting rifle for the Rockies for Elk / Mule deer and I'm sure hunting locally as well.
Specs:
Defiance Rebel Long Action
Bartlein #3 contour Fluted 24" 1:8.7 twist
VIAS Micro Brake
Manners EH-1 Carbon Stock
Jewell
Badger M4
NF 20 MOA
Seekins Medium Rings
Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP MOA
Magneto Speed V2 chrono
Loads:
Nosler 7 SAUM Brass
CCI BR2
Berger 180 Hunting VLD
All load development done at 100 yards.
When I did load development on my 26" barreled rifle that is posted on page 1 basically Retumbo was too slow and I could fill the case and not get close to desired speed of +/-2950 fps, H1000 was perfect for both desired speed / accuracy and H4831sc was accurate but showing slight pressure.
So starting out with his rifle I figured H1000 would be the way to go and having 8 pounds on hand we had what we needed. I tried EVERYTHING you can imagine with H1000 and seating depth. I started at 58.0 grains to be REALLY safe on pressure with the brand new rifle and went all the way up to 67.0 grains where I hit pressure. The speed was great at 65.0 - 66.0 grains in the mid 2900's but no matter what depth I seated the bullet I could not get any desireable accuracy. I tried jamming +0.035", +0.020", +0.015", +0.010", at the lands 0.000", Jumping -0.010", -0.020", -0.030", -0.040", -0.060", -0.070", -0.090", -0.100", -0.120" and -0.130". I shot 130 rounds with H1000 and a few times it would look like I might be on to something. We were shooting 3 round groups to save components as well as keep the barrel cool with the lighter contour. "psinclair" stated in one of the 6.5 SAUM threads that after 4 rounds with this same barrel contour his groups were opening up a bit so I followed his lead. We would get a load where 2 would group then one of the 3 would be 1" away. A few times we got 3 to group then we would load up 3 more and they would scatter a 1" group again.
We started out with his Vortex mounted up on the first two days of testing. Just to make sure it was not a scope issue and being I shoot better groups with higher magnification we put on a spare S&B PMII 5-25x56 I have. The bore was cleaned before being fired and after about 70 rounds and 130 rounds. I do not beleve in brake in and I have competition rifles that shoot 1/4 MOA so it works for me. So with the S&B mounted after 70 rounds we continuedd with H1000 and shot until we had 130 rounds down range total. I clean the rifle again.
I contacted several knowledgeable shooters who have 7's of some vareity that shoot the VLD to ask their opinon and to get some ideas. The VLD's can be very picky on seating depth but so far all of us seem to be jamming them. I shoot them jammed 0.015" in my 7SAUM. Shooter #2 shoots his jammed 0.010" in his 7 SAUM, Shooter #3 shoots his 0.010" jammed in his 7/300. Shooter #4 said he shoots his just barely jumping but not much out of his 7WSM. Shooter #5 said he went to the Hybird because the only way he could get them to shoot in his 7RM was to single feed and jam them. So from the above info we pretty much all agreed that jamming them would be best but I did not want to jam them too much as this is a hunting rig and a pulled bullet can ruin a hunt.
On a recommendation I tried some of the leftover H4831sc I still had. In hind sight I should have tried something else sooner but I really thought we would get something with H1000 and I only had about 1/2 pound of it left from load development with my rifle (more on that in a bit). The smith that built the gun called to see how the rifle was shooting and I had told him not to my expecations yet, but this was the day before we tried H4831sc. I told him I had checked the rings / bases to make sure they had not gotten loose and put the proper torque on them I pulled the action out of the stock to check the bedding and to ensure no debris or anything funky was going on there. I torqued the action screws to 65 in-lb and checked to make sure the barrel was indeed free floating. I let him know I was going to try some H4831sc the next day but was almost out and if that did not work I had some Hybrids on the way. He said he had 2 pounds of H4831sc if I needed more and was going to be in my area in 2 days and he could drop it off at my house so I took him up on the offer.
The next day we loaded up some of what I had left of H4831sc and right away the groups tightened up and were more consistant. I had compared the velocity I was getting out of this rifle with what I had got out of mine with the H1000 and the numbers were almost identical. 63.0 grains of H4831sc shot well in my rifle so I decied to load up a few with that charge and test the speed in his. It was shooting 2885 fps so I went up to 64.0 grains and the accuracy was a little better but we were runing out of day light and had to stop shooting for the day. The speed was almost what I was looking for and there were no indications of pressure with these charges. The next day I got the 2 pounds from him and continued. I loaded up 64.0 gr of his powder and had HEAVY bolt lift. I knew better than to not work up with a new powder lot but being hard headed I didn't. We dropped the charge to 63.7 and shot again, still pressure. I shot all 3 rounds and accuracy was better but I did not like the hard bolt lift. We dropped to 63.2 and tried again, the accuracy got better but there was still some slight bolt lift. We dropped to 62.5 gr and I shot 3 rounds. I could not believe my eyes as it was one of the best 3 shot groups I have ever shot in my life. There were no indications of pressure with easy bolt lift. We loaded up 3 more and he shot and the group was really good considering his experience. We loaded up 3 more and he shot again. Again the group was good. Well I thought to myself great, we might have a load but we are probably in the 2800's and I was hoping to be at 2920 or more. We loaded up 5 more and we put the Magneto Speed V2 chrono back on the gun to check the speed. 5 shot avg 2977 SD 12! I could not believe it. Daylight was fading and we quit for the day.
That night we put his Vortex back on the gun and the next day we loaded up some more of "THE LOAD". 62.5 H4831sc, Nosler 7 SAUM, CCI BR2, 180 Berger VLD 0.010" into the lands. He sighted the rifle in and all of his shots were +/- 1/2 MOA which is basically his ability. Once sighted in I said let me shoot 3 more with your scope; just over 1/4 MOA. So I was like yep we have THE LOAD for this rifle. I only shot 6 rounds total of this combo but with my 2 groups and the groups he shot I knew it was very consistant.
We went Sunday to another place where we can stretch things a bit. We shot at 600, 800 and 1000 and the real world DOPE matched up great with Ballistic AE using the MV the chrony told us. So the speed is legit. He shot a 3 round 3" group at 800. Rigged out the rifle weighs 9.75 pounds.
Lessons learned:
1) Don't wait 130 rounds before trying something else.
2) The VLD's like to be jammed.
3) Drop the charge when changing powder lots.
4) H4831sc seems to be too fast in longer barrels (26" and longer) but might be the ticket in shorter barrels (24").
5) This lot of H4831sc is MUCH hotter than the one I had, indicated by both speed and heavy bolt lift.
My 3 shots with my S&B. 1" diameter orange dot
My 3 shots with his Vortex
Specs:
Defiance Rebel Long Action
Bartlein #3 contour Fluted 24" 1:8.7 twist
VIAS Micro Brake
Manners EH-1 Carbon Stock
Jewell
Badger M4
NF 20 MOA
Seekins Medium Rings
Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP MOA
Magneto Speed V2 chrono
Loads:
Nosler 7 SAUM Brass
CCI BR2
Berger 180 Hunting VLD
All load development done at 100 yards.
When I did load development on my 26" barreled rifle that is posted on page 1 basically Retumbo was too slow and I could fill the case and not get close to desired speed of +/-2950 fps, H1000 was perfect for both desired speed / accuracy and H4831sc was accurate but showing slight pressure.
So starting out with his rifle I figured H1000 would be the way to go and having 8 pounds on hand we had what we needed. I tried EVERYTHING you can imagine with H1000 and seating depth. I started at 58.0 grains to be REALLY safe on pressure with the brand new rifle and went all the way up to 67.0 grains where I hit pressure. The speed was great at 65.0 - 66.0 grains in the mid 2900's but no matter what depth I seated the bullet I could not get any desireable accuracy. I tried jamming +0.035", +0.020", +0.015", +0.010", at the lands 0.000", Jumping -0.010", -0.020", -0.030", -0.040", -0.060", -0.070", -0.090", -0.100", -0.120" and -0.130". I shot 130 rounds with H1000 and a few times it would look like I might be on to something. We were shooting 3 round groups to save components as well as keep the barrel cool with the lighter contour. "psinclair" stated in one of the 6.5 SAUM threads that after 4 rounds with this same barrel contour his groups were opening up a bit so I followed his lead. We would get a load where 2 would group then one of the 3 would be 1" away. A few times we got 3 to group then we would load up 3 more and they would scatter a 1" group again.
We started out with his Vortex mounted up on the first two days of testing. Just to make sure it was not a scope issue and being I shoot better groups with higher magnification we put on a spare S&B PMII 5-25x56 I have. The bore was cleaned before being fired and after about 70 rounds and 130 rounds. I do not beleve in brake in and I have competition rifles that shoot 1/4 MOA so it works for me. So with the S&B mounted after 70 rounds we continuedd with H1000 and shot until we had 130 rounds down range total. I clean the rifle again.
I contacted several knowledgeable shooters who have 7's of some vareity that shoot the VLD to ask their opinon and to get some ideas. The VLD's can be very picky on seating depth but so far all of us seem to be jamming them. I shoot them jammed 0.015" in my 7SAUM. Shooter #2 shoots his jammed 0.010" in his 7 SAUM, Shooter #3 shoots his 0.010" jammed in his 7/300. Shooter #4 said he shoots his just barely jumping but not much out of his 7WSM. Shooter #5 said he went to the Hybird because the only way he could get them to shoot in his 7RM was to single feed and jam them. So from the above info we pretty much all agreed that jamming them would be best but I did not want to jam them too much as this is a hunting rig and a pulled bullet can ruin a hunt.
On a recommendation I tried some of the leftover H4831sc I still had. In hind sight I should have tried something else sooner but I really thought we would get something with H1000 and I only had about 1/2 pound of it left from load development with my rifle (more on that in a bit). The smith that built the gun called to see how the rifle was shooting and I had told him not to my expecations yet, but this was the day before we tried H4831sc. I told him I had checked the rings / bases to make sure they had not gotten loose and put the proper torque on them I pulled the action out of the stock to check the bedding and to ensure no debris or anything funky was going on there. I torqued the action screws to 65 in-lb and checked to make sure the barrel was indeed free floating. I let him know I was going to try some H4831sc the next day but was almost out and if that did not work I had some Hybrids on the way. He said he had 2 pounds of H4831sc if I needed more and was going to be in my area in 2 days and he could drop it off at my house so I took him up on the offer.
The next day we loaded up some of what I had left of H4831sc and right away the groups tightened up and were more consistant. I had compared the velocity I was getting out of this rifle with what I had got out of mine with the H1000 and the numbers were almost identical. 63.0 grains of H4831sc shot well in my rifle so I decied to load up a few with that charge and test the speed in his. It was shooting 2885 fps so I went up to 64.0 grains and the accuracy was a little better but we were runing out of day light and had to stop shooting for the day. The speed was almost what I was looking for and there were no indications of pressure with these charges. The next day I got the 2 pounds from him and continued. I loaded up 64.0 gr of his powder and had HEAVY bolt lift. I knew better than to not work up with a new powder lot but being hard headed I didn't. We dropped the charge to 63.7 and shot again, still pressure. I shot all 3 rounds and accuracy was better but I did not like the hard bolt lift. We dropped to 63.2 and tried again, the accuracy got better but there was still some slight bolt lift. We dropped to 62.5 gr and I shot 3 rounds. I could not believe my eyes as it was one of the best 3 shot groups I have ever shot in my life. There were no indications of pressure with easy bolt lift. We loaded up 3 more and he shot and the group was really good considering his experience. We loaded up 3 more and he shot again. Again the group was good. Well I thought to myself great, we might have a load but we are probably in the 2800's and I was hoping to be at 2920 or more. We loaded up 5 more and we put the Magneto Speed V2 chrono back on the gun to check the speed. 5 shot avg 2977 SD 12! I could not believe it. Daylight was fading and we quit for the day.
That night we put his Vortex back on the gun and the next day we loaded up some more of "THE LOAD". 62.5 H4831sc, Nosler 7 SAUM, CCI BR2, 180 Berger VLD 0.010" into the lands. He sighted the rifle in and all of his shots were +/- 1/2 MOA which is basically his ability. Once sighted in I said let me shoot 3 more with your scope; just over 1/4 MOA. So I was like yep we have THE LOAD for this rifle. I only shot 6 rounds total of this combo but with my 2 groups and the groups he shot I knew it was very consistant.
We went Sunday to another place where we can stretch things a bit. We shot at 600, 800 and 1000 and the real world DOPE matched up great with Ballistic AE using the MV the chrony told us. So the speed is legit. He shot a 3 round 3" group at 800. Rigged out the rifle weighs 9.75 pounds.
Lessons learned:
1) Don't wait 130 rounds before trying something else.
2) The VLD's like to be jammed.
3) Drop the charge when changing powder lots.
4) H4831sc seems to be too fast in longer barrels (26" and longer) but might be the ticket in shorter barrels (24").
5) This lot of H4831sc is MUCH hotter than the one I had, indicated by both speed and heavy bolt lift.
My 3 shots with my S&B. 1" diameter orange dot
My 3 shots with his Vortex
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Barney88PDC,
I cant believe your getting that much speed using 180's and H4831 from a 24" barrel. Heck I'm trying to find a good load for my 180 hybrids. Might have to try H4831 out in my saum and see how it goes. I wonder if the vld's jammed .010" will stick if your decide not to fire the chamber round in a hunting situation. Either way looks and sounds like its working well.
I cant believe your getting that much speed using 180's and H4831 from a 24" barrel. Heck I'm trying to find a good load for my 180 hybrids. Might have to try H4831 out in my saum and see how it goes. I wonder if the vld's jammed .010" will stick if your decide not to fire the chamber round in a hunting situation. Either way looks and sounds like its working well.
No they do not stick, we have checked that with several rounds several times and it is a nonissue. Now go to .020" maybe maybe not, 0.030" you're asking for trouble.
Thanks again for sharing, and great write up (the good, bad, and the ugly) on your load development.
That was a great speed! I got 30" barrel 2950 is my fastest do far with 62gr rl25 i also did try up to 62gr h4831 but preasurr were crazy woth only 2887fps.. il have to agree on 4831 is freat for 26 or shorted barrel...
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Why no love for the lighter bullets for 600yds and less? I'm building a saum for anything from deer, javolina, coyote, and maybe elk should I be so lucky in AZ. I'm a long range target shooter and get the advantages of heavier, higher BC bullets for that aspect, but a faster, flatter flying bullet would seem to have the advantage of a greater point blank range for a better chance at a successful kill when you have limited time to range and/or dial and may misjudge distance slightly.
I'm looking for a good, currently available,high BC HUNTING bullet in the 140 to 160ish grain range. Anything accubond and the 162 amax are out, unfortunately due to zero availability, and I'm not interested in wasting my time fussing with seating depth trying to get the hunting vlds to work either. So what are my options?
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I'm looking for a good, currently available,high BC HUNTING bullet in the 140 to 160ish grain range. Anything accubond and the 162 amax are out, unfortunately due to zero availability, and I'm not interested in wasting my time fussing with seating depth trying to get the hunting vlds to work either. So what are my options?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
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bjay, do you stay drunk or have fingers like banana's? LOL!
