Help Needed With Assembling SBR Please

[sqidd]

Well it looks like X-Mas came early! I can get a SBR in Michigan now (see below)! WooooHoooooo. And I was just looking to put another AR together, perfect timing.

So help me out here SBR gurus. I don’t want to go anywhere near AR-15.com. I don’t know anything about the intricacies of a SBR and assembling one to run correctly. I also don’t know what barrel length to go with, 8 or 10in? What’s the hot setup? If you were assembling one what parts/methods/etc would you use? I’m not looking to cheap out, I’m not looking to spend $3000 either. And I would like to do it in 5.56 and have it geared as a PDW, short and sweet.

So what the word?

Thanks guys!

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Michigan: Senate Judiciary Committee Unanimously Approves to Lift a State Gun Ban

On Tuesday, the Michigan Senate Judiciary Committee unanimously approved Senate Bill 610 that would lift Michigan’s ban on the private ownership of short-barreled rifles and shotguns. Short-barreled rifles and shotguns are strictly regulated under the federal National Firearms Act. Therefore, by repealing this longstanding state gun ban, Michigan law would conform with federal law, and align Michigan with more than forty other states that already allow their resident to possess these firearms. Short-barreled rifles and shotguns are subject to restrictive regulations including requiring their buyers to undergo a background investigation, pay a $200 tax and register these firearms with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
The NRA applauds the Senate Judiciary Committee voting to repeal this gun ban. Since SB 610 is now eligible for consideration on the state Senate floor, please contact your state Senator in SUPPORT of Senate Bill 610.

 

[mbpike]

Well it looks like X-Mas came early! I can get a SBR in Michigan now (see below)! WooooHoooooo. And I was just looking to put another AR together, perfect timing.

So help me out here SBR gurus. I don’t want to go anywhere near AR-15.com. I don’t know anything about the intricacies of a SBR and assembling one to run correctly. I also don’t know what barrel length to go with, 8 or 10in? What’s the hot setup? If you were assembling one what parts/methods/etc would you use? I’m not looking to cheap out, I’m not looking to spend $3000 either. And I would like to do it in 5.56 and have it geared as a PDW, short and sweet.

So what the word?

Thanks guys!

AR15.com is not really a bad source of info. If you stick to the technical forums like the Class 3 and SBR sections then you get a lot of good info and usually have minimal bullshit to wade through.

But to help with the topic:

I'd personally go with a 10.5" to 12.5" barrel. You start loosing a lot of velocity when you get under 10.5". Also if you plan on suppressing your rifle most companies do not suggest running a can on a barrel shorter then 10.5" When I talked to AAC last year at SHOT about it they said I could put it on whatever I want. But when the blast baffles finally get enough wear on them and the can becomes louder all they will do for me is give me half off a new can. And if you do run suppressed I'd suggest some type of brake instead of flash hider. While it will be stupid loud while unsuppressed the brake will act as a sacrificial blast baffle.

Here is a chart for velocity out of different length barrels, I can't vouch for accuracy since I'm not the one who put the list together BUT it will give you a ball park idea:

As far as making it run properly you should be fine with a carbine gas system and an H2 buffer. But of course like any gun you might have to play with buffer weight to get it to run smoothly and properly.

To keep it short as possible I'd suggest maybe one of the new folding stock adapters. They seem very well made and have a few friends that have them on fun guns. They are quick to deploy and really shorten the gun up when storing it in your truck or bag.

Hope this helps, I'm not an expert by any means but I'm a damn dirty ar15.com user Hope this helps a little.

 

[Cobracutter]

Depends what you want to do. Once you get past 11.5", the headache of going through a SBR is kinda worthless.

10.5 is a good all around legnth. Just buy a BCM or DD, and it will have the right gas system and gas port drilled.

I personaly like 7.5" guns. Much more fun to shoot and compact. Unless you absolutley need the ballistics of a 11.5" or longer, then don't do it.

To get around having to SBR it, which I refuse to do.... go with Sig Sauer SB15 Pistol Stabilizing Brace PSB-AR-BLK - Stocks - Lower Parts - AR-15. Save yourself $200 and 12 months of waiting....Ontop of the ATF getting a free shot of your private life.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

I am very happy with my LWRC SBR. I would suggest a selectable gas system, something that can handle a suppressor if you ever wanted to mount a suppressor on it. I also agree with sticking to 10.5 inches and above. Any less and you really lose velocity and the sound reduction below 10 inches really decreases. Running an AAC on my LWRC shows how much louder it is than my 16.1 inch barrel. Enjoy!!!

 

[mbpike]

Hell my vote goes to buying a factory 10.5 Noveske switchblock.

 

[Cobracutter]

I agree with Mbpike. The switchblock is a great system and gives you flexibility to run suppresed and not overgas the system .

 

[sqidd]

Hmmmmmmm, and here I was thinking I was going to assemble something. Maybe I should look into a pre-assembled rifle. I’ll look into the ones you guys suggested.

I’m thinking 10.5” sounds about right from the feedback.

Film at 11.

 

[-Nick-]

You gonna go 300 or stay with 5.56?

 

[This I'll Defend]

I have only heard of people that already have an FFL using the Sig arm brace and I get mixed reactions from gun store workers when I talk about it. Some think it is the "ATF free" way to get an SBR while others think that is a honey trap that will get you arrested until your lawyer can come to your defense. I only ask because I have thought of getting a AR pistol and putting the SIG arm brace on it to have a pseudo SBR.

 

[-Nick-]

I have only heard of people that already have an FFL using the Sig arm brace and I get mixed reactions from gun store workers when I talk about it. Some think it is the "ATF free" way to get an SBR while others think that is a honey trap that will get you arrested until your lawyer can come to your defense. I only ask because I have thought of getting a AR pistol and putting the SIG arm brace on it to have a pseudo SBR.

Anytime I think there is a remote possibility I could get arrested whether by accident or stupidity of another party I like to consider whether it's worth spending a lot of $$$$$ in the future just to prove my innocence.

 

[sqidd]

You gonna go 300 or stay with 5.56?

I'm going to stay 5.56. I need to stock another round like I need a hole in the head.

The more I look into complete guns the more I want to assemble one. I'm going to have to think this out.....

 

[sqidd]

I realize MI may be different than other states, but maybe not. If I assemble one will I be registering the lower as a SBR? Is that how it works/is tracked by the BTAF?

 

[-Nick-]

I'm going to stay 5.56. I need to stock another round like I need a hole in the head.

The more I look into complete guns the more I want to assemble one. I'm going to have to think this out.....

That's a tough call man. The nice thing about purchasing from a good company is usually they've already done the R&D into the gas issues and you're more likely to get reliability out of the box with out the trouble shooting. Building is fun though and you can make it yours... I wish I had that decision issue lol. F@#king Washington...

 

[mbpike]

Yes, when you decide you want to build an SBR you have to have the lower engraved with:

Your Name (Or Trust Name)
Town, State

You fill out your Form 1 and send a $200 check into the ATF. They process it and send you your stamp. You can use the lower in any other legal configuration while you're waiting on the stamp. With a factory SBR you have to leave the gun at the dealer until the stamp is approved (6 to 8 months last I checked). It's really a 2 way street. With a factory gun you don't clutter it up with extra engraving and it will have a higher resale. With a F1 lower you get to have possession of it and use it while you wait but it would have less appeal to the average buyer if you did have to hawk it off.

 

[Delta4-3]

It's easy to set one up the way you want it. I like 10.5" and 12.5" 5.56 SBR's, and my 7" .300 blk. They all have their place. For the .223, pick a good barrel and upper, get a mid length ff hand guard, carbine gas tube, and a low pro block and rock it. I've got lots of gas tube roll pins I can throw some in an envelope for you, because I always butterfingers the first couple, and never find them among all the metal chips on my floor.

You could always build a pistol, send the form off, then put a stock on it when your stam gets back.

 

[sqidd]

Yes, when you decide you want to build an SBR you have to have the lower engraved with:

Your Name (Or Trust Name)
Town, State

You fill out your Form 1 and send a $200 check into the ATF. They process it and send you your stamp. You can use the lower in any other legal configuration while you're waiting on the stamp. With a factory SBR you have to leave the gun at the dealer until the stamp is approved (6 to 8 months last I checked). It's really a 2 way street. With a factory gun you don't clutter it up with extra engraving and it will have a higher resale. With a F1 lower you get to have possession of it and use it while you wait but it would have less appeal to the average buyer if you did have to hawk it off.

So do I need a lower (or complete gun) before I send off my form 1 and $200 so the BATF has a serial number to work with?

So that would mean:

Step 1- Designate or buy lower as SBR lower

Step 2- Fill out and send in a Form 1

Is that correct?

I heard something about needing the local Sheriff needing to sign off on it. Anyone familiar with that? Would that be done before filling out the form 1 and sending it in?

 

[sqidd]

It's easy to set one up the way you want it. I like 10.5" and 12.5" 5.56 SBR's, and my 7" .300 blk. They all have their place. For the .223, pick a good barrel and upper, get a mid length ff hand guard, carbine gas tube, and a low pro block and rock it. I've got lots of gas tube roll pins I can throw some in an envelope for you, because I always butterfingers the first couple, and never find them among all the metal chips on my floor.

You could always build a pistol, send the form off, then put a stock on it when your stam gets back.

I’m leaning toward assembling one. I have a full machine shop and have yet to find something I couldn’t make (not that I won’t be buying most of the components).

So when you are saying 10.5” barrel is that including or not including the compensator/break? I’m definitely going to make one for it. I made a few lately that have worked really well. I’m just wondering when you are planning around that short if you want to include it in the length of the barrel, add it to the length of the barrel or something in between? I do want it to be short. I don’t see much reason in doings a kinda short SBR.

Thanks

 

[Cobracutter]

I have only heard of people that already have an FFL using the Sig arm brace and I get mixed reactions from gun store workers when I talk about it. Some think it is the "ATF free" way to get an SBR while others think that is a honey trap that will get you arrested until your lawyer can come to your defense. I only ask because I have thought of getting a AR pistol and putting the SIG arm brace on it to have a pseudo SBR.

except there are published ATF letters saying that it does not consitute a stock. Its even included.

The guy who invented it is on ar15.com. Sig Arms then bought the rights from him. YOu think SIG is going to buy and produce this thing if its going to get shut down. They are not some backwoods gun manufacture. They have REAL liability to worry about and are risk adverse like any large corporation. Buy with confidence.

 

[Cobracutter]

300 BLK is pointless unless you are going to suppress it.... and good luck finding ammo. If you need more firepower go 6.8SPCII or .50B/ .458 Socom. They are much better short range thumpers.


When it comes to SBR's you need to do alot of research and stick to companies like LMT, DD, KAC, Noveske or BCM. They know how to build reliable SBR uppers/barrels. The boards are littered with knuckleheads asking why their SBR's/pistols wont run beacuse they havent the foggiest idea how to build one. Using random parts you find online will result in a 1 shot rifle. They are MUCH more sensitive to gas system, gas port size, buffer weights, and ammo selection.

 

[mbpike]

So do I need a lower (or complete gun) before I send off my form 1 and $200 so the BTAF has a serial number to work with?

So that would mean:

Step 1- Designate or buy lower as SBR lower

Step 2- Fill out and send in a Form 1

Is that correct?

I heard something about needing the local Sheriff needing to sign off on it. Anyone familiar with that? Would that be done before filling out the form 1 and sending it in?

If you buy a pre registered SBR lower then it will be on a Form 4. If you decide to use a pre existing standard lower you will do a Form 1. Either way before you can start paper work with the ATF you have to have the lower acquired so you can use the S/N from the lower.

You can do the paper work as an individual but that will mean you have to send 2 passport ID's, 2 sets of finger print cards, and get the CLEO sign off. Only you can be in possession of the item. Meaning that if it goes to the range you must be at the range with it. The CLEO has to be signed off on before sending any and all paper work in.

If you do a trust you get to bypass the CLEO sign off, finger prints, and passport photos. You can also name people as trustee's and they can have possession of the item or items with out you present. I personally went with a trust and have it set up so my wife and father can use them if I'm home. While they would never touch my guns while I'm gone it does make it easier if for some reason I needed to leave a gun at my fathers house or they needed to transport the items. With Michigan laws being so new you might get a little feedback from your CLEO and they might not be willing to sign off, so in turn you would still have to do a trust to bypass that step.


Anyone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going off the top of my head and it sounds correct as I type this stuff. I know that all the Class III stuff sounds kinda complicated but once you get the hand of it it's not bad at all.

 

[sqidd]

If you buy a pre registered SBR lower then it will be on a Form 4. If you decide to use a pre existing standard lower you will do a Form 1. Either way before you can start paper work with the ATF you have to have the lower acquired so you can use the S/N from the lower.

You can do the paper work as an individual but that will mean you have to send 2 passport ID's, 2 sets of finger print cards, and get the CLEO sign off. Only you can be in possession of the item. Meaning that if it goes to the range you must be at the range with it. The CLEO has to be signed off on before sending any and all paper work in.

If you do a trust you get to bypass the CLEO sign off, finger prints, and passport photos. You can also name people as trustee's and they can have possession of the item or items with out you present. I personally went with a trust and have it set up so my wife and father can use them if I'm home. While they would never touch my guns while I'm gone it does make it easier if for some reason I needed to leave a gun at my fathers house or they needed to transport the items. With Michigan laws being so new you might get a little feedback from your CLEO and they might not be willing to sign off, so in turn you would still have to do a trust to bypass that step.


Anyone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm going off the top of my head and it sounds correct as I type this stuff. I know that all the Class III stuff sounds kinda complicated but once you get the hand of it it's not bad at all.

Ok, I'm a tool. What is a CLEO? I'm guessing my Sheriff?

I like this trust idea, got a link to info.

 

[Delta4-3]

125g barnes at 2400 fps, uses standard bolt face and 30 round mags that you already have. Drops pigs and deer like a champ. I also cast 247g bullets out of wheel weights, so they are free. I like all 6 of my blackouts. But I also like my 6x45, 6.8, etc. It's got it's place, but it's not for everyone for sure. Certainly not something I'd lean on too hard if I relied on others for ammo.

300 BLK is pointless unless you are going to suppress it.... and good luck finding ammo. If you need more firepower go 6.8SPCII or .50B/ .458 Socom. They are much better short range thumpers.


When it comes to SBR's you need to do alot of research and stick to companies like LMT, DD, KAC, Noveske or BCM. They know how to build reliable SBR uppers/barrels. The boards are littered with knuckleheads asking why their SBR's/pistols wont run beacuse they havent the foggiest idea how to build one. Using random parts you find online will result in a 1 shot rifle. They are MUCH more sensitive to gas system, gas port size, buffer weights, and ammo selection.

 

[mbpike]

Ok, I'm a tool. What is a CLEO? I'm guessing my Sheriff?

I like this trust idea, got a link to info.

CLEO = Chief Law Enforcement Officer = Sheriff (I've heard Chief of police can do it, but that is merely a rumour that I've not cared to verify or negate) So yes you were spot on.

As far as the trust idea you can look at NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog :: Published by Florida Gun Trust Lawyer David Goldman and I'd personally check with AR15.com (oops I said it again) in the home town forum. They might be able to point you to a local lawyer that is very knowledgeable in the gun trust area.

 

[Crosshair]

I personally like the 11.5" barrel length. A little bit better ballistics than the 10.5 and a little more dwell time. I also find I like a 11" rail for more comfortable and further-out grip. Also, if going to build it as a pistol, the 11.5" barrel gives you 26.25" overall length using a carbine buffer tube so a vfg can be used without being considered an AOW. This is a 11.5" LW profile BCM barrel w/ 11" rainier evo rail.

 

[long range newbie]

I'd run a 8in and get a long handguard to put a suppressor so it looks like its just a short barrel, and it'll be a good home defense.

 

[Nisils14]

I would prob go with a 11.5" with a carbine system, adjustable gas block, 10-11 FF hand gaurd, and maybe a qd suppressor.

 

[oneshot onekill]

From what I understand, Obama passed an executive order that changes the "Trust loophole" as they like to call it, slightly. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but here's the way I understand it. With a trust you now also need to have CLEO sign off, finger prints and photos. But not just yours. Now it has to be everyone on the trust! The CLEO will now be signing a slightly differently worded document that takes away the liability he faced with the old form.
As far as Lower itself, when you fill out a Form 1 be sure to include every caliber you can shoot through an AR15 in the section where you fill in that information. That way there's no conflict if you happen to want to shoot a 22 Short Barrel Upper on your registered Lower. Or 9mm, or 300BLK, or 6.8SPC or whatever.
Also, be aware, ATF was shut down during the Government Shutdown so don't be surprised if your paperwork takes even longer to process.
Oh, and FYI... The ATF requires all short barrel rifles to be engraved with the manufacturer's name, city, and state. I'm pretty sure that's all. And that information should already be there anyway. We've sold thousands of lowers that were used for SBR's and every time someone has brought up "engraving" extra information on a Lower our Class3 guy has told them it is NOT required. So far no one has been arrested and blamed us for mis-informing them.

 

[sqidd]

I personally like the 11.5" barrel length. A little bit better ballistics than the 10.5 and a little more dwell time. I also find I like a 11" rail for more comfortable and further-out grip. Also, if going to build it as a pistol, the 11.5" barrel gives you 26.25" overall length using a carbine buffer tube so a vfg can be used without being considered an AOW. This is a 11.5" LW profile BCM barrel w/ 11" rainier evo rail.

View attachment 19010

Is that a 11.5' barrel plus the flash device or 11.5" for both?

 

[Crosshair]

11.5 without muzzle device. The A2 adds about 1.25" to a bare muzzle. With any legal length measurements, it's always without muzzle devise counted, unless it's permanently attached.

 

[Cobracutter]

I'd run a 8in and get a long handguard to put a suppressor so it looks like its just a short barrel, and it'll be a good home defense.

Yea Just be smart and don't do this: I blew up my rail - M4Carbine.net Forums

 

[mallrat]

AR15 Barrels & AR308 Barrels by NW Custom Precision | RocketHub

7" barrel for $65. Sure, delivery date's a ways out, but you'll probably have the barrel long before the tax stamp gets back.