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whidden bullet pointing kit

A

alan98

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 11, 2008
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Pennsylvania
I have a gap 6.5 SAUM getting built now and see a lot of guys use pointed bullets. I'll probably purchase the whidden bullet pointing die kit for this rifle and was just wondering if this is good to go? Anyone have any reviews on this kit? May even try it on my 338 Lapua 300 bergers.

Thanks,
Alan
 
Mine arrived Friday, as I also am waiting for a 6.5 SAUM. The claim has been made by more than one person running it that the 130 VLD will have a .600 b.c. when pointed. My question is why wouldn't you point the bullet? If that's all it takes to get that much gain the it's worth the effort. I was however a bit disappointed to see that the Widden die itself is made out of plastic. I just figured something that cost that much would be made out of steel. I realize that it doesn't take any punishment pointing bullets, so I'm confident that it is up to the task. I have not had time to set it up and use it yet, but it looks simple enough. Hopefully I can get in the reloading room this week and test it out.
 
H.ARM said:
X2. I would be very interested in any comparisons/recommendations for the Whidden vs. the Hoover bullet pointing systems. And is the end result worth the expense and effort?
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I had a Whidden when they were first introduced. They had only one pointing punch at the time and I wasn't impressed with the overall quality. Punch to sleeve, sleeve to die fit was sloppy but I can't say it had a negative effect. When the Hoover came out I purchased one and immediately sold the Whidden. At the time of comparing the two the Hoover was a far better made die in my opinion. I have no current info if Whidden has improved in the quality department. I am currently using the Hoover #13 punch to point Berger 6.5mm 130 VLD's.
 
Also, waiting on my GAP 6.5 SAUM to be built. But I did get the Whidden die and Meplat trimming parts to use w/ Wilson trimmer. I was a little shocked to see the die was made out of plastic, it did not feel high quality. BUT after setting it up and pointing/trim/point again - everything worked great. Very quick and easy set-up and operation. Didn't take but about 40 minutes to finish out 100 bullets and I'm sure that will speed up now that I'm familiar with the process.
 
H.ARM said:
X2. I would be very interested in any comparisons/recommendations for the Whidden vs. the Hoover bullet pointing systems. And is the end result worth the expense and effort?
Click to expand...
I cannot compare them since I only own one of them, the Hoover; however, I will lay out my reasoning for going with the Hoover, and look forward to others comparing the two. I agonized over my decision, as I own 5 Whidden 550 floating toolheads for my Dillon 550B and absolutely love them, but from the start I was leaning towards the Hoover pointing system. The reasons I finally went with the Hoover are that 1) the Whidden Meplat trimmer requires the use of a Wilson Case Trimmer which I do not have. I already own a Dillon RT1200 case trimmer, and if I purchase a second trimmer, it will be a Giraud. 2) At the time of my purchase, I felt like trimming off of the Ogive rather than the overall length was better. I'll admit now that I am not sure which way is better, (but I will say that the Hoover does hold the bullets quite well and I get consistent cuts). 3) Finally, the pointing inserts were the thing that convinced me. Whidden uses a total of three different pointing dies for all bullets. Hoover uses 23 different pointing dies. While this is potentially much more expensive, it also seems to me that it is more customized to your particular bullet. Of course, when I first purchased my system, I was not familiar with Bryan Litz who is Whidden's Ballistician. So...Maybe I made the wrong decision, maybe not, but I'll use what I have for now.
 
omurnion said:
...I was however a bit disappointed to see that the Widden die itself is made out of plastic. I just figured something that cost that much would be made out of steel. I realize that it doesn't take any punishment pointing bullets, so I'm confident that it is up to the task...
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Wow, I didn't know that. I can attest that the Hoover dies are steel.
 
I guess I should have pointed out that the Widden die body is plastic, but the inserts are steel. It works great...
 
H.ARM

Post your thoughts and findings when it comes in and you point some bullets Please.

I'm going to take the leap soon.

FN in MT
 
So you guys got me sold but I went to all my usual reloading websites and did not find Hoover. Where are you getting them?
 
I have the Hoover meplat trimmer and pointing die, quality tools. I do recommend getting the power adaptor for the trimmer so you can use a cordless drill instead of hand cranking. Works like a champ, quick and accurate once setup correctly.
 
There is another thread in the Reloading section talking about problems with the Sinclair. Someone mentioned the Giraud meplat trimmer. Since I already have the trimmer, I'm thinking that would be the way to go on meplats and then get the Hoover repointer. I haven't seen any feedback on the Giraud but I own and have used extensively both his trimmer and annealer machines and they are fantastic. Does anyone have actual experience with the Giraud meplat trimmer adapters?
 
Rookie said:
There is another thread in the Reloading section talking about problems with the Sinclair. Someone mentioned the Giraud meplat trimmer. Since I already have the trimmer, I'm thinking that would be the way to go on meplats and then get the Hoover repointer. I haven't seen any feedback on the Giraud but I own and have used extensively both his trimmer and annealer machines and they are fantastic. Does anyone have actual experience with the Giraud meplat trimmer adapters?
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I have no experience with the meplat trimmer, but when I picked up my spotting scope stand, Doug showed me how the meplat trimmer works and it looks pretty solid. Like you, I have noticed that everything about Giraud Tool Co. is first class. I would be willing to bet that the meplat trimmer works great, and considering that you already have the Giraud trimmer, it's only another $75 for the meplat kit ($50 less than the Hoover, and it's powered) seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
Rookie said:
There is another thread in the Reloading section talking about problems with the Sinclair. Someone mentioned the Giraud meplat trimmer. Since I already have the trimmer, I'm thinking that would be the way to go on meplats and then get the Hoover repointer. I haven't seen any feedback on the Giraud but I own and have used extensively both his trimmer and annealer machines and they are fantastic. Does anyone have actual experience with the Giraud meplat trimmer adapters?
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Erik Cortina and i were talking and he said he uses the Giraud meplat trimmer and likes it. Other than Erik i don't know anyone else using it personally but if Erik's using it im sure it works very well.
 
Just ordered Giraud's Meplat trimmer kit. Told them they should come up with a bullet trimmer as well.
 
Rookie said:
Just ordered Giraud's Meplat trimmer kit. Told them they should come up with a bullet trimmer as well.
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???????????????????????????The Meplat is on the bullet and is the only trimming I have ever heard of on bullets. Is there another place to trim on bullets?
 
Sorry rsplante, I said "trimmer" but meant "tipper". I don't know of repointing actually involves trimming or not.
 
I have had both the Whidden & Hoover pointers and can say without doubt that the Hoover is light years ahead . Now do i think pointing makes a difference , Hmmmmmmm Jury is still out after 3-4 years as everything in my body tells me that it should help but everything in the real world tells me it doesn't . Whidden tried to tell me that it won't make any difference at 500 yards but it will make around 10 inches at 1000 yards which is utter garbage .
It's like a bad habbit to me pointing just like weighing cases , i do it but every test i've done has never made any visable difference . I have test targets done at 500 yards with both 90g Berger VLD's & 123g Lapua Scenars and give or take very small amounts there is no difference .
 
This was a test done at 500 yards using a 6.5x47 Lapua with 123g pointed & non pointed Scenar's . The target on the left is the pointed Scenar's .

 
7GRT said:
This was a test done at 500 yards using a 6.5x47 Lapua with 123g pointed & non pointed Scenar's . The target on the left is the pointed Scenar's .

Click to expand...

Oww, that doesn't say much for pointing. Something occurred to me last week while I was pointing 1000 77gn SMKs. If I get greedy and try to reduce the Meplat too much, it messes with the Ogive of the bullet by causing to to bulge. I would think that Sierra arrived at the exact Ogive to give the best BC, so if I change that inadvertantly, I might cause more harm than good. And I have spent a lot of time looking at the before and after and the old MK1 eyeballs are having a hard time telling when I have gone too far. What do you think?
 
I think you should tread carefully with the trimmer and if you must use it , only skim next to nothing off . Like I said before that everything in my head tells me pointing should work but tests prove otherwise . I also feel that by altering one bullet more than another due to trimming metplats is effecting its weight and in your case a bullet that's 77.10g is not going to drop the same as one that's 76.90g over distance , how much ? The answer is I have no idea but common sense and the laws of gravity tell you that the two bullets can't hit at the same point .
In search of a ballistic holly grail , If pointing does give an advantage then we could be altering the BC's by different amounts on each bullet and then we are screwed !
Just my thoughts based upon my tests , Good luck
 
7GRT said:
I think you should tread carefully with the trimmer and if you must use it , only skim next to nothing off . Like I said before that everything in my head tells me pointing should work but tests prove otherwise . I also feel that by altering one bullet more than another due to trimming metplats is effecting its weight and in your case a bullet that's 77.10g is not going to drop the same as one that's 76.90g over distance , how much ? The answer is I have no idea but common sense and the laws of gravity tell you that the two bullets can't hit at the same point .
In search of a ballistic holly grail , If pointing does give an advantage then we could be altering the BC's by different amounts on each bullet and then we are screwed !
Just my thoughts based upon my tests , Good luck
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Thanks for the response. I have to respectfully disagree on one aspect though. I cannot remember the exact numbers; however, when I trimmed the meplats, I carefully saved and weighed the trimmings and it was miniscule in weight. I used a Sartorius GD503 magnetic force restoration scale which is accurate to .005gn. Secondly, I conducted a test last week and proved (at least to myself) that the bearing length (boattail to ogive) has a much larger effect on both chrono readings and grouping than bullet weight. I intend to document my test more thoroughly in the future; however, here is the raw data:

ps. if you are wondering how I got those bullet weights so close, those in the last two bearing length groups were carefully sorted from groups of over 100 bullets at that bearing length to get similar weights. Yes, I'm CDO. (that's like OCD, but the letters are arranged alphabetically, as they should be!) Click on the thumbnail excel spreadsheet and it will expand to readable size. The chrono numbers were measured with an Oehler 35P proof chronograph.
Bearing Length Test.jpg
 
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I didn't say that altering the bullet weight had the greatest down range effect but however small the effect there will be one . I agree that bearing surface is another factor but I would expect serious long range shooters to only buy there bullets in bulk from the same batch , then batch from there and then run them through a Juenke machine .
I like the test idea but if I'm understanding the main purpose of it I can't see how any difference in velocity can be said to be only down to bearing surface as there are so many other factors that effect velocity .
 
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7GRT said:
I didn't say that altering the bullet weight had the greatest down range effect but however small the effect there will be one . I agree that bearing surface is another factor but I would expect serious long range shooters to only buy there bullets in bulk from the same batch , then batch from there and then run them through a Junke machine .
I like the test idea but if I'm understanding the main purpose of it I can't see how any difference in velocity can be said to be only down to bearing surface as there are so many other factors that effect velocity .
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First of all, where did you find a Juenke machine? I wrote last year and if I remember correctly, Vern died and nobody took up the reins. Those seem to be more mythical than a Prometheus II scale. As for bulk, I've only found 77gn SMKs in batches of 500, so my current 2000 processed bullets are from 4 batches. I agree that I find a VERY large and bothersome difference between batches. I tried the JLK route and bought 1000 80gn JLK VLDs, but unfortunately my 1:8 barrel doesn't like 80gn bullets (group opens up at least .5moa over 77gn SMKs.) As for improving velocity differences, I'm all ears. This batch, with an ES of 15 and SD of 4.73 is my best so far, but I'm always looking for ways to improve on that. I've heard of people getting single digit spreads. What am I still missing?

Here is my current reloading routine, in this order, I trim meplats on a Hoover trimmer Precision Reloading Equipment, repoint in a Hoover pointing die, (Hoover says to sort bullets first, but that would vastly complicate the rest of the process since I would have to resort after coating with Boron Nitride, or coat in VERY small batches.) vibration "tumble" in walnut shells for 1 hr., vibration "tumble" in bottle with boron nitride Boron Nitride Coating Bullets - David Tubb for 2 hr., sort by bearing length using Sinclair sorting stand SINCLAIR BULLET SORTING STAND | Sinclair Intl and a pair of David Tubb comparators http://www.davidtubb.com/bsc-insert-224-cal into groups of .001", (considered further sorting by weight but with only 2000 bullets, the groups were too small to be practical plus the weight does not seem to matter very much at that point.)

My brass comes from 1000 virgin LC11 cases (third shooting, first time annealing), trimmed for length with an RT1200B Dillon Precision: Reloaders, Reloading Equipment, Bullet Reloading, Bullet Reloaders, which also full length sizes at same time, first time through I trimmed flash holes on https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/Ma...creenlabel=index&productId=3170&route=C11J037 and also normalize primer pockets and debur and chamfer necks, skim necks with 17-338 Cal. Neck Turning Lathe neck turning lathe and turning tool, each shooting I tumble in SS media Stainless Tumbling Media | Stainless Tumbling Media Package and from now on anneal every
time with a Giraud Annealing Machine New Page 1. Then I sort my brass into .1gn groups (1000 cases is not a large enough group to sort smaller than .1gn groups, at least with LC. I'll bite the bullet and try Lapua next time, whew $750/thou http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/prod...gclid=CLOx6fDEu7oCFYZaMgodnEsAVw&gclsrc=aw.ds).

I do not sort my 205m primers by weight, although I had considered it (Even I am not THAT CDO!)

I use a highly modified Dillon 550B. I've replaced the caliber conversion bushing with a https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1281, I've replaced the tool head with 6 floating die toolheads https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1389 (for different setups). I use a Redding Competition Bushing neck die Competition Bullet Seating Die | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment and use a bushing which gives me .002" of neck tension, I weigh each charge starting with my old RCBS Chargemaster .1gn low and then place it on a Sartorius GD503 magnetic force restoration scale Sartorius GD503-NTEP Class II legal for trade Carat Scale and use an Omega 2-speed trickler https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1378 to weigh my loads to a single kernel of Varget. I use a Redding Competition Seating die Competition Bullet Seating Die | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment, and I do not crimp. I use a Hornady OAL gauge to measure my throat length Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Gage Bolt Action and I also use a Hornady Concentricity gage Hornady Lock-N-Load Ammo Concentricity Gage. I have two other concentricity gages, one from 21st century shooting, and one from NECO, but I like the Hornady best because it allows me to easily correct concentricity to +/- .0005" (I replaced the dial indicator with a .0001" Starrett and use a tip with a roller designed for dial indicators) (I have to apply constant side tension on the right side arbor of the Hornady or it jumps all over the place.) Then I clean off the lube with a shop towel and isopropyl alcohol and finally I weigh each finished cartridge (I have experienced a squib and near KaBoom. I take no chances now.)

When performing load tests, I use an Oehler 35P proof chronograph Oehler Research, Inc.--Model 35 Proof Chronograph .

While I am shooting an AR, (LaRue 5.56 OBR w/ 20 in barrel http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-obr-556-20”) with a Magpul PRS stock http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG307/181 and an Ergo grip http://www.laruetactical.com/ergo-ar15m16-tactical-deluxe-suregrip-ambidextrous. I do not load to magazine length. Since F class requires single shot I use a Bob Sled https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1354, I load to around .005 off the lands (I say around since I am still working with that, plus it has been pointed out to me on this very site that an AR-15 is the worlds most expensive bullet puller.) I use a David Tubb AR-15 precision carrier weight AR-15 Carrier Weight System - AR 15 PRODUCTS by Superior Shooting Systems and an Enidine Hydraulic AR-estor https://www.storesonline.com/site/696296/product/T1323. NightForce 8-32x56 NXS (mil-mil) http://nightforceoptics.com/nxs/8-32x56-nxs-riflescope/ up top in a LaRue mount http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-obr-qd-scope-mount. I am on Sebastian Lambang's waiting list for a Podjoy II Seb Unveils Lighter Yet Stronger GEN 2 Joystick Bipod « Daily Bulletin . That's pretty much it for hardware. As for practice, I generally shoot about 250 rounds per month between two F class competitions and load development and practice. (200 yd friendly, plus alternating 300 and 600 yd NRA) My best so far is 600-42X at 200yd., but it falls off quick at the longer ranges. Oh yeah, for windreading, I got a Kestrel http://www.kestrel-direct.com/shop/...em=0845B&manufacturer=&manufacturerItemNumber= and a good set of three windflags, one more thing to learn how to use, lol.

What could I do to lower my ES into single digits?

Also, do you have any idea where I could find a "BOSS" type system that could be threaded onto an AR to "tune" the barrel?
 
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It is important that you don't try too hard as you are obviously very keen to get the best kit and the best results , My competitions are F Open using 7mm's at 800-1000 yards and i've found that a rifle that bug holes and i dont mean clovers with spreads of upto 15 ft/sec will be hard to beat .
I feel that just good reloading proceedures each done at the same time will give the best results as with too many things thrown into the pot you may not be able to see the wood for the trees !
Everyone will have their take on what should be done and i can only give you mine based upon my experiences and in no way would i want you to stop doing all what you are but just suggest that you go back to the start and introduce one extra process at a time and see if makes any difference .
Key issues for me are ;

Turning necks so that 2/10ths of a thou is the max wall thickness difference in all your cases ( in my case on the 7mm its 12.8 to 13 thou per wall )

Don't trim metplats just weigh and sort . bearing surface should be very similar within the same batch so just random check .

I wouldn't go the Boron route and i wouldn't do the annealing after that many firings , Your spreads and velocities will tell you when you need to either replace the brass or start annealing and if its annealing , test five new cases against the annealed ones to see if the annealing is working for you as there is a fine line and to every case that has been done correctly another few are not .

I have one of Sebs F Class rests and a Farley both with special bases but as for bipods if you can cope with a little more weight without pushing you over limit then go with a Rempol as its simply the best that you could buy !

I too have a Kestrel but if your only using it for wind speed and direction then get a Windtronics 2 as its multi directional unlike the Kestrel which has to be held into the wind and if the wind is coming from the rear well its not practical to get up and check the wind speed and then get back down again etc .

My Vern Juenke Machine which i must of had for Ten years now .

 
This is the Windtronics 2 that i mentioned which i've added a direction indicator that can be attached to a spike that pushes into the grass or fixed via Clulite fixing to the roof of my truck .

 
Just seen a Juenke machine for sale on The UK F Class website , never seen one for sale before . Guy is asking £500 .
 
7GRT said:
This is the Windtronics 2 that i mentioned which i've added a direction indicator that can be attached to a spike that pushes into the grass or fixed via Clulite fixing to the roof of my truck .

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I like the idea, but I will probably not buy multiple weather meters. Already made that mistake with concentricity gages (I have three, and it turns out that I like my first one best.) One thing that does mitigate the problem you mention with Kestrels is that they offer a wind vane which keeps it pointed into the wind. What I do not like about my Kestrel is that I bought the bluetooth version thinking that it would constantly update my "shooter" software with fresh weather data. Instead, it only updates when you manually query it. They would probably say that I should have bought the Horus version for several hundred more. lol

I am beginning to realize that the Kestrel is good for checking my estimate of the wind speed and direction,as I learn to read the wind, it also supplies several parameters for my "shooter" software, but, windflags are where it's at. I would need remote kestrels at all the locations where wind flags are placed. The one 600 yd F class I have shot at so far had several occasions where the windflags were blowing in different directions at once. Now I am starting to understand why people who are good at reading the wind are in some circles considered minor dieities.
 
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7GRT said:
It is important that you don't try too hard as you are obviously very keen to get the best kit and the best results , My competitions are F Open using 7mm's at 800-1000 yards and i've found that a rifle that bug holes and i dont mean clovers with spreads of upto 15 ft/sec will be hard to beat .
I feel that just good reloading proceedures each done at the same time will give the best results as with too many things thrown into the pot you may not be able to see the wood for the trees !
Everyone will have their take on what should be done and i can only give you mine based upon my experiences and in no way would i want you to stop doing all what you are but just suggest that you go back to the start and introduce one extra process at a time and see if makes any difference .
Key issues for me are ;

Turning necks so that 2/10ths of a thou is the max wall thickness difference in all your cases ( in my case on the 7mm its 12.8 to 13 thou per wall )

Don't trim metplats just weigh and sort . bearing surface should be very similar within the same batch so just random check .

I wouldn't go the Boron route and i wouldn't do the annealing after that many firings , Your spreads and velocities will tell you when you need to either replace the brass or start annealing and if its annealing , test five new cases against the annealed ones to see if the annealing is working for you as there is a fine line and to every case that has been done correctly another few are not .

I have one of Sebs F Class rests and a Farley both with special bases but as for bipods if you can cope with a little more weight without pushing you over limit then go with a Rempol as its simply the best that you could buy !

I too have a Kestrel but if your only using it for wind speed and direction then get a Windtronics 2 as its multi directional unlike the Kestrel which has to be held into the wind and if the wind is coming from the rear well its not practical to get up and check the wind speed and then get back down again etc .

My Vern Juenke Machine which i must of had for Ten years now .

Click to expand...

Thanks for all of your advice. I will have to study this and see how I can incorporate into my procedures. Some things will have to wait, as in it will take me close to a year to use up the ~2000 SMKs I have already processed. I know that it might not seem like money is a concern, but looks can be deceiving. I will get something I think will help, but I really hate to waste something. I almost killed me to decide to give up on the 1000 80gn JLK VLDs I bought. I had only skimmed my cases, but I will have to try full turning of necks. By the way, it has occurred to me that if cases have to be trimmed as they grow in length, do they have to have their necks re-turned? and if so, how often? As for even the relatively small group of bullets in an individual lot (i.e. 500) I have seen differences in bearing length of over .011. It HAS made me consider that maybe I am causing that condition by improperly repointing bullets (as in possibly causing bulges.)

I fully understand what you are saying about introducing one new parameter at a time. To some extent I have tried to do just that. I have introduced each change to my procedure one at a time with as much as several months of shooting in between; however, I have probably not done as good of a job of testing of the changes as I could have, as for most of that time I did not have really accurate tools to measure results. I just picked up a used Hyskore rest, complete with a syringe operated remote trigger actuator, so that I can remove as much of the human element from my testing as possible (on an individuals budget.) I only got my bearing length setup in the past month, the Satorius scale in the past 4 months and the Oehler 35P in the past 6 months. All of my prior testing is suspect, in my mind, as I had too little control of the variables and my measurements were too inaccurate. I am sure that I will revisit my previous testing of different procedures on accuracy. As one example that I have never gotten a straight answer on, which should be done first, develop a good powder load, or adjust setback. I can see how each could affect the results. There are certain obvious safety concerns there too, one would not want to arrive at a maximum powder load and then increase setback as you could experience a bad day.

I am curious as to what your objection is to Boron Nitride. The way David Tubb sells it, it seems to have all the advantages of Moly with none of the disadvantages. I can surmise that one of the things you may not like is that since it reduces friction, it probably reduces MV (since less pressure is allowed to build up as the bullet travels down the barrel.) but at the same time it MAY extend barrel life. I am also curious about your hesitancy about annealing. Several benchrest shooters I have spoken to swear by it (not at it) and insist on annealing every firing. In response to your statement about the low percentage of correctly annealled cases, that's one of the plusses about the Giraud, every one should be the same, so they are either all good, or all bad. I use 750degF Tempilaq on the necks and 425degF Tempilaq midway between the neck and head while setting the machine up. Within those parameters, is there still a drawback to annealing every time?

I will look into the Rempol. Have you compared it to a Podjoy? To be blunt, I resisted going belly benchrest. I wanted to remain somewhat practical and have so far sufficed with a plain old Harris bipod. One of our club's shooters, just back from the F class nationals a month or two ago, said that he only saw one shooter using a conventional bipod.

Another thing I have been curious about. Not having access to a Juenke, or even knowing anyone with one, is it an all or nothing proposition. i.e. do you just toss bullets that don't make the grade? and just in case I ever find one, Do you test every bullet? And how long does it take to test a bullet? (not that that has ever stopped me from trying a new possibility for improving my handloads.)

Once again, thanks for your advice. I will have to process it in my mind.
 
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I'll try to give my thoughts on the questions you asked ;

The vane for the kestrel that points it into the wind is only any good if the wind is coming from over your shoulder as anywhere else and you can't see the kestrels screen .

The Rempol is just rock solid and when you have a good fit with the rear back bag it's like it's held in a vice .

I don't know enough about boron coatings to give advice but I like pressure as it tells you when to back off . I don't want to use anything that masks and could give me a difference shot to shot in pressure which would effect velocity and spreads . ( IMHO )

I assume that when you say 'setback' your talking about adjusting the bullet length in the case . I start by picking a couple of powders that are within the burn for the caliber / bullet combo then load rounds with powder weights working up until I reach the velocity I want using the lands measurement as a starting point .
Once you get to the velocity and pressure seems okay then try a few 15 thou in and 15 thou off the lands and the rifle will tell you which direction it likes . If the load works but spread are nothing special then try a different primer but if the load doesn't work alter the powder charge up or down to see if there is a node close to your ideal velocity .
If your test groups have a vertical tendency then it's normally powder charge but if they string horizontally then it's normally seating depth , this has worked well for me over the years .

I do test every bullet on the Juenke and use only bullets that fall within five grads on the scale for any comps and within ten grads for practice and testing . Any others , which are very few get used to foul the barrel or blow offs .
It takes about 10 seconds to test a bullet .

The neck turning , be careful how much you take off the neck as I run tight neck chambers for most so if your running sammi specs then you'll be working the brass more with thin neck walls . The key is a consistent wall thickness case to case so when sized they hold every bullet with the same pressure and never mix cases that have been fired different amount of times .

You don't have to neck turn again once done only trim the length .

IMHO , annealing cases after every firing is madness .

Hope this helps .
 
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What whidden pointing die insert is needed for 6.5 140 berger hybrids, and also 338 300 grain hybrids?? #1? Looks like there are only 3 different ones if I'm reading it right?

Alan
 
About HBN. I use it and have had awesome results. In fact since I built my wet tumbler HBN is the only reason I keep my vibratory tumblers. I wash all bullets in hot filter water from my fridge filter. (I use filter water in my Keurig so I just hit brew without a K-cup and get precisely enough hot water with a drop of dawn to wash 50 300 gr smks or 100 208 Amax) Dry at 200 degrees for 10 minutes in a yard sale toaster oven with the door propped open 1/2 inch. The Tubbs kit says don't use BB's but I have about 20 that I use. I don't think it actually impact plates I think it just changes the viscosity of the bullet mass so they tumble faster. I tumble them in a n empty bottle of NO Xplode. I dont know if it will make my barrels last longer but I do know that I generally go 100 rounds between cleaning in my 308, and that is just cleaning carbon fouling. Generally after about 200 rounds I deep clean the bore with KG 12 and wipe out. Not sure if I even need to but I also take that time to clean and re-lube the bolt. Also saw lower ES and SD still chasing single digit ES but I dont think my Hornady auto thrower is up to it. Looking to get another more accurate scale to trickle up to precise loads.
 
Wow... Lots of info but I still have a question, will just pointing make a difference or do you have to trim and point. I'm not an "F/Class" shooter, I shoot tactical matches and ELR matches so I'm on the fence as to which or either will be of benefit.
Sully
 
My testing of the whidden was only with 142smks from a 260 at ~2800fps.

The die was adjusted down until it bulged the ogive, then backed off until it didn't - so we're talking "maximum tipping"

10 shots of each tipped/untipped were run by a magnetospeed, average velocity for tipped was 2803, SD=9. Avg MV for untipped was 2799, SD=8.

At thunder valley, we got the scope adjusted so a dead-hold on a clay bird with UNtipped bullets resulted in a hit @ 1000 yards. After we managed to hit 6 in a row, we switched to the tipped bullets...

Without adjusting the scope, we were hitting high, in the dirt above the birds.

Taking .3mrad off the scope was a shade too much, but .2mrad was a shade too little.

With .2mrad less than the untipped elevation and a slight holdover, we again managed to hit 5 or 6 in a row, with misses being windage errors.

We were convinced by this test.
 
Last edited:
turbo54 said:
My testing of the whidden was only with 142smks from a 260 at ~2800fps.

The die was adjusted down until it bulged the ogive, then backed off until it didn't - so we're talking "maximum tipping"

10 shots of each tipped/untipped were run by a magnetospeed, average velocity for tipped was 2803, SD=9. Avg MV for untipped was 2799, SD=8.

At thunder valley, we got the scope adjusted so a dead-hold on a clay bird with UNtipped bullets resulted in a hit @ 1000 yards. After we managed to hit 6 in a row, we switched to the tipped bullets...

Without adjusting the scope, we were hitting high, in the dirt above the birds.

Taking .3mrad off the scope was a shade too much, but .2mrad was a shade too little.

With .2mrad less than the untipped elevation and a slight holdover, we again managed to hit 5 or 6 in a row, with misses being windage errors.

We were convinced by this test.
Click to expand...

Thanks Turbo that answers the first part of the question, ie your testing showed an improvement and that's good to hear but my second question didn't, trim & tip OR tip only?
 
turbo54 said:
Tipped only
Click to expand...

Interesting, because with all the reading on this from several sites and publications your testing and findings make the most since for the type of shooting I enjoy. Might be worth a try , I mean with all the time I spend on reloading I guess alittle longer won't be a total loss it sounds like.
Sully
 
I should of pointed out that according to JBM, the BC went from ~.58x to ~.61x, which is pretty nice.
 
turbo54 said:
I should of pointed out that according to JBM, the BC went from ~.58x to ~.61x, which is pretty nice.
Click to expand...

I'm sending the 139 Scenars @ 2970 and confirming out to 1000 with FFS @ .61 and if this works I should pick up some more which puts me right up there with the Berger Hybrids and that's good because the Scenars are so easy to load up.
 
bas402 said:
I'm sending the 139 Scenars @ 2970 and confirming out to 1000 with FFS @ .61 and if this works I should pick up some more which puts me right up there with the Berger Hybrids and that's good because the Scenars are so easy to load up.
Click to expand...

Interesting. My partner and I use FFS D4 also, and have found the 142 and 139 to be damn near the same exact BC; right about .58. Seems the 142 may be a few points higher, maybe .582 or so, and the 139 may be slightly less at .578 or so. Regardless, launched at the same speed they follow almost the identical trajectory. That is at ~2800fps MV though.

Are you sure about that .61x for the 139? Can your ~175fps advantage put the bullet into a different BC band?
 
Yep, me and a couple of my shooting buddies verified it like I said to 1000, we couldn't believe it but we also couldn't believe what the Magneto Speed was telling us either so we used my FFS and yeah that's how the round test. As far as another band that could (never thought of that) be we can't explain it, I just roll with it for now because it's to repeatable, I know my Lapua brass doesn't last over 5 cycles (pockets go away) and that's out of a DTA 26" Lother barrel and I know it won't last long so I'll enjoy it while it last. I'm developing JLK 140 loads for a 24" Kreiger now and that's what prompted my journey into this tipping stuff, trim loose then tip and gain back slightly, seemed like a lot of work for the slight gain but I could never find info on just tipping. The BC is great on the JLK's but I can't get the speed, if I can get more BC pretty easy I'll do it. I think it should help pushing them when my 6.5 SAUM is finished next month. We are going to see if all this low pressure,high velosity Kool-Aid is worth all the "hype" if not I'm going back to my 7WSM's, they have never let me down!
Like always...Thanks for the ifo!
Sully
 
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