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Designated marksman requirements

T

TroyMN

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 5, 2012
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Minnesota
I have a friend that is new to shooting and I am new to long-range within the last two years. My friend works at the Minnesota Department of Corrections. We were talking the other day and he was telling me this the "story" that he gets "snipers" at work. They were saying how you have to hit a dime at 1000 yards to qualify. Knowing just enough about long-range shooting to realize how difficult it really is to shoot it distances. Current 1000 yard benchrest match record is in the 2 inch range, just a couple of years ago it was over 5 inches. Even this cold board challenge a lot of accomplished shooters on this forum are doing, hitting a dime at 100 yards seem to take skill.
What if any truth do you think there is to that statement is it maybe 1000 feet? Maybe someone here knows the actual qualifications ? ( just regarding precision shooting).
Thanks
Troy
 
Designated marksman requirements

Hitting a dime at 100 yards takes proper application of the fundamentals plus a rifle able to accomplish the task.

Not all MN corrections officers are either trained or qualified to use firearms. The perimeter and tower guys only are rifle-trained to standard.

And that level of skill and ability is not required by MN division directive 107.010.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I've seen those guys. They're pretty amazing, really.

They place the dime on a target board... then they set up from a concealed position, 1000 yards away, with several witnesses.

They get one cartridge, as this will be a cold, clean bore shot, and the candidate is told as the shell is handed to him "One Shot, One Kill."

They take a few moments to determine wind, temperature, elevation, spin drift, and Coriolis--when shooting at a dime at 1000 yards, one MUST consider the rotation of the earth.

They mount the rifle, chamber the round, peer intently through the scope... finger on the trigger, one must control the heart-beat. These guys have to learn to basically stop their heart beat temporarily for such a precise shot.

The shot breaks, the bullet flies through the air, and drills right through that dime. The sniper is then gifted by the esoteric organization with that dime, which he wears proudly on a chain around his neck. He is feared the world over.

Then he gets a date with his favorite super-model.

Then he wakes up because he's late for work at McDonalds. :eek:
 
Dan Newberry said:
I've seen those guys. They're pretty amazing, really.

They place the dime on a target board... then they set up from a concealed position, 1000 yards away, with several witnesses.

They get one cartridge, as this will be a cold, clean bore shot, and the candidate is told as the shell is handed to him "One Shot, One Kill."

They take a few moments to determine wind, temperature, elevation, spin drift, and Coriolis--when shooting at a dime at 1000 yards, one MUST consider the rotation of the earth.

They mount the rifle, chamber the round, peer intently through the scope... finger on the trigger, one must control the heart-beat. These guys have to learn to basically stop their heart beat temporarily for such a precise shot.

The shot breaks, the bullet flies through the air, and drills right through that dime. The sniper is then gifted by the esoteric organization with that dime, which he wears proudly on a chain around his neck. He is feared the world over.

Then he gets a date with his favorite super-model.

Then he wakes up because he's late for work at McDonalds. :eek:
Click to expand...

Damn I need practice
 
Troy,

He's yankin' your chain. That, or he's just guessing (fabricating) the "requirements." Just for the record, it doesn't really take skill to hit a dime at 1,000, or even a particularly accurate rifle. Just takes a bit of luck I can do it with an M60. Just takes a while. And a lot of ammo . . . whole LOTTA ammo.
 
I was an SDM instructor in the army. I got there by firing each shot like it was my only one, and only focusing on that one shot, and to be honest, I was shocked when I got the offer and very excited and proud at the same time. We used M4's in the beginning (and we wrote the book, I did the ballistics portion) and there was no way in hell they were gonna hit a dime at any range. But they were generally good for about 2-4 MOA (we tried to keep it down to 2MOA if possible by changing weapons out, depending on ammo lot and the shooter). 4MOA is milspec for M4 and ammo.

Marksmen speak in terms of angular measurement. I'll bet he has working knowledge of trigonometry if he's half as good as he says. I know advanced calculus and analysis and I have a .33MOA 6.5G rifle --it's my tightest shooter and best rifle I've ever owned. I'll likely just quit shooting when Mr. Satern dies and this barrel wears out. I do have two on order though, been waiting about 9 months, expect to get it in a year or two. Anyway, .33MOA means I can hit a dime at about 100m (and I'm positive I can do it) but at 1000m I'm guaranteed a spread of over 3 inches, saying everything else is perfect. There's nothing I can do to rectify this or make the rifle any more accurate.

I doubt even the very best benchrest shooters on their best day could pull this off. Shit, I've never even heard of a sub-.1 MOA rifle.

PS, some military snipers aren't all they seem to be either. Believe it or not, a lot are just tab hunters. You can tell because they'll lift up their pocket flap to make sure you see it, since they aren't allowed to put it on their uniform. That that is even a rule points out this issue! They generally are easy to spot and fall asleep in their hides. Shooting/fieldcraft comes second to showing off that tab.

It would be more ingenious to point out that the best shooters AIM for a dime, and hit within the limitations of their abilities and weapon system.

Geez, I wish the fuck I got out more so I could hear stories like this.
 
Designated marksman requirements

damoncali said:
Before you can even talk about how hard it is to hit a dime at 1000, you must first figure out how to see a dime at 1000.

Your friend is mistaken.
Click to expand...
His friend never said that he could see the dime.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It would be tough to qualify for that job, I wouldn't even think about applying..........
 
damoncali said:
Before you can even talk about how hard it is to hit a dime at 1000, you must first figure out how to see a dime at 1000.

Your friend is mistaken.
Click to expand...

Well, actually you do not need to see the dime to hit the dime. Example, tape a dime over the X on a NRA LR Decimal Target and aim as you would with scope or irons. Shooting a pinwheel X would of course take out the dime. The practice is frowned upon since a dime blowing off the target could become a projectile which would pose a threat to those serving in the pits.
 
I don't see the big deal. Put enough dimes on a big enough target and shoot at it enough times, you're bound to 'hit a dime at 1000 yards'.
 
Last edited:
Actually, we used to do quarters @ 600, with iron sights. In the Infantry Trophy Match, you're firing at silhouette targets, starting at 600 and moving closer from there. A hit anywhere on the silhouette counts, so they pop up pretty randomly SOMEWHERE on the target. To keep things interesting during practices, we used to trace a circle around a quarter, put your initials inside, and toss the quarter into a pot. Add as many more circles as you wanted, it'd cost you a quarter apiece and they went into the pot as well. When the targets went up, if your circle took a hit, you got the pot.

Yes, you CAN get bored on a rifle range, and occasionally need to do something to spice things up. That, and the fact that Grunts are just naturally degenerate gamblers, and there ya' go.
 
Designated marksman requirements

ksthomas said:
Actually, we used to do quarters @ 600, with iron sights. In the Infantry Trophy Match, you're firing at silhouette targets, starting at 600 and moving closer from there. A hit anywhere on the silhouette counts, so they pop up pretty randomly SOMEWHERE on the target. To keep things interesting during practices, we used to trace a circle around a quarter, put your initials inside, and toss the quarter into a pot. Add as many more circles as you wanted, it'd cost you a quarter apiece and they went into the pot as well. When the targets went up, if your circle took a hit, you got the pot.
Click to expand...
Were those all 'quarter-minute' rifles??
 
TroyMN said:
I have a friend that is new to shooting and I am new to long-range within the last two years. My friend works at the Minnesota Department of Corrections. We were talking the other day and he was telling me this the "story" that he gets "snipers" at work. They were saying how you have to hit a dime at 1000 yards to qualify. Knowing just enough about long-range shooting to realize how difficult it really is to shoot it distances. Current 1000 yard benchrest match record is in the 2 inch range, just a couple of years ago it was over 5 inches. Even this cold board challenge a lot of accomplished shooters on this forum are doing, hitting a dime at 100 yards seem to take skill.
What if any truth do you think there is to that statement is it maybe 1000 feet? Maybe someone here knows the actual qualifications ? ( just regarding precision shooting).
Thanks
Troy
Click to expand...

I think that's the real requirement. Our MN DOC guys are pretty hard-core operators.
 
Maybe I'm different, but I'm pretty sure I can hit a dime from 1000m away...

"Big Guns, this is Strike 3-Sierra.... Fire Mission, Over."

:p
 
Maybe I'm different, but I can generally hit a dime at 1000m:

"Big Guns, this is Strike 3-Sierra... Fire mission, over."

:p
 
ksthomas said:
Actually, we used to do quarters @ 600, with iron sights. In the Infantry Trophy Match, you're firing at silhouette targets, starting at 600 and moving closer from there. A hit anywhere on the silhouette counts, so they pop up pretty randomly SOMEWHERE on the target. To keep things interesting during practices, we used to trace a circle around a quarter, put your initials inside, and toss the quarter into a pot. Add as many more circles as you wanted, it'd cost you a quarter apiece and they went into the pot as well. When the targets went up, if your circle took a hit, you got the pot.

Yes, you CAN get bored on a rifle range, and occasionally need to do something to spice things up. That, and the fact that Grunts are just naturally degenerate gamblers, and there ya' go.
Click to expand...

That's a good idea, I wish I'd thought of that way back when.
 
Sounds akin to taking the wings off a gnat at 500 yards. Gunshop BS.

The absolute best benchrest rifles in the world have approx a 1 in 32 chance of hitting a dime size area at 1000 yards in real world conditions.
A dime measures 0.7", pi x 0.35 radius ^2= 1.21" area
2" astounding 1000 yard benchrest group equates pi x 2 ^2= ~39.5" area

39.5"/1.21"= 32.6 shot spread per dime

Cold bore, Fluke. Only plausible description of such occurance.
 
smokebomb said:
Sounds akin to taking the wings off a gnat at 500 yards. Gunshop BS.

The absolute best benchrest rifles in the world have approx a 1 in 32 chance of hitting a dime size area at 1000 yards in real world conditions.
A dime measures 0.7", pi x 0.35 radius ^2= 1.21" area
2" astounding 1000 yard benchrest group equates pi x 2 ^2= ~39.5" area

39.5"/1.21"= 32.6 shot spread per dime

Cold bore, Fluke. Only plausible description of such occurance.
Click to expand...


You have obviously never met the Minnesota Department of Corrections.
 
I'm going to make sure I don't have any dimes in my pocket the next time I'm in Minnesota. I might be 1000 yards from a prison and not know it until the dime seeking boolit penetrates my pants.

Gee, it's late and time for bed.
 
Ya know, I really wish all these wannabe operator posers would quit talkin' their stuff about hittin' dimes at 1000 yds. It's a real affront to those of us who can actually accomplish such a feat to have to put up with such shameless braggadocio. Fortunately, there aren't many of us, and we don't spend much time in Minnesota, otherwise stuff could get real, real fast...
 
mkollman74 said:
Ya know, I really wish all these wannabe operator posers would quit talkin' their stuff about hittin' dimes at 1000 yds. It's a real affront to those of us who can actually accomplish such a feat to have to put up with such shameless braggadocio. Fortunately, there aren't many of us, and we don't spend much time in Minnesota, otherwise stuff could get real, real fast...
Click to expand...

You talk tough from way out in Washington, luckily you are just out of their range. Put your money where your mouth is and take a casual stroll within a mile of any MN State correctional facility. The DOC snipers will drop you like a bad habit before you even get a chance to answer your cell phone.

FYI, DOC snipers always call to tell you first when you're about to get shot. It's cold-blooded.
 
Most DOC agencies will send their tower gunners/SORT operators through some type of law enforcement advanced rifle carbine or SWAT sniper training. Shots in the correctional setting will be close and probably average 50-80 yards with an AR15 or Mini-14. Any guy on here that has been through a law enforcement sniper qualification knows that 1000 yards will never be part of the qualification process.
 
When he said "our snipers are all required to smoke a dime at 1000yards" i think you had a fundamental misunderstanding of his intent.
 
Designated marksman requirements

There exists a video of a Michigan DOC officer shooting an inmate on the yard in the head during a riot. Maybe someone can find it and post it.

It's a good example of a lucky shot when officers are not trained regarding the effect on trajectory of severe angles at short range.
 
Thanks for all the feedback! I knew they where giving him a line of shit. He was just passing on the story they told him. I told him I thought it was BS. I also mentioned it would be great to go shoot with them and see if they could hit a dime at 200 yards. If I could shoot a round or two them go tape the dime over my group I might have a chance of hitting it at 200, but not with a first round hit.
 
I have to correct my earlier statement about benchrest hit ratio. I forgot how to do math.
It would actually be a 1 in 8.16 chance of hitting a dime, not counting sighters, for the most accurate heavy bench guns to hit a dime at 1000. This is provided the dime is placed in the 2" diameter impact realm of plausible accuracy.

Still humorous.
 
Hey...I never got my center-punched dime for my super model girlfriend! They just whisked me off in a black helicopter to an undisclosed location, taught me a secret handshake, and inducted me into the Star Chamber.
I knew I should have asked for my dime...that thing could have translated into some serious tail.
 
Strykervet said:
I was an SDM instructor in the army. I got there by firing each shot like it was my only one, and only focusing on that one shot, and to be honest, I was shocked when I got the offer and very excited and proud at the same time. We used M4's in the beginning (and we wrote the book, I did the ballistics portion) and there was no way in hell they were gonna hit a dime at any range. But they were generally good for about 2-4 MOA (we tried to keep it down to 2MOA if possible by changing weapons out, depending on ammo lot and the shooter). 4MOA is milspec for M4 and ammo.

Marksmen speak in terms of angular measurement. I'll bet he has working knowledge of trigonometry if he's half as good as he says. I know advanced calculus and analysis and I have a .33MOA 6.5G rifle --it's my tightest shooter and best rifle I've ever owned. I'll likely just quit shooting when Mr. Satern dies and this barrel wears out. I do have two on order though, been waiting about 9 months, expect to get it in a year or two. Anyway, .33MOA means I can hit a dime at about 100m (and I'm positive I can do it) but at 1000m I'm guaranteed a spread of over 3 inches, saying everything else is perfect. There's nothing I can do to rectify this or make the rifle any more accurate.

I doubt even the very best benchrest shooters on their best day could pull this off. Shit, I've never even heard of a sub-.1 MOA rifle.

PS, some military snipers aren't all they seem to be either. Believe it or not, a lot are just tab hunters. You can tell because they'll lift up their pocket flap to make sure you see it, since they aren't allowed to put it on their uniform. That that is even a rule points out this issue! They generally are easy to spot and fall asleep in their hides. Shooting/fieldcraft comes second to showing off that tab.

It would be more ingenious to point out that the best shooters AIM for a dime, and hit within the limitations of their abilities and weapon system.

Geez, I wish the fuck I got out more so I could hear stories like this.
Click to expand...

Here are some IBS 1000yd records. I have seen multiple 3" groups fired on the line in one relay, but aggs tell the story. And a dime, I wouldn't even listen to such bullshit.

Group: Tom Sarver 1.397 in. Plainfield, Ohio 2007

Score: Tom Sarver 50/1.397 in. Plainfield, Ohio 2007

6 Match agg. Group: Al Forbes 4.2810 in. Pella, Iowa 2009

6 Match agg. Score: Rick Curtis 48.333/6.6535 in. Harry Jones, WV 2009

10 Match agg. Group: Larry Bryant 6.1833 in. Quantico, Virginia 2002

10 Match agg. Score: Pierre Lucas 46.4/7.7412 in. Plainfield, Ohio 2006
 
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