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question about brass weighing

Smokerroller

Si vic pacem, Para bellum
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 23, 2013
392
65
Sheridan, WY
What is the spread of the weight ranges you guys are sorting your brass into? I want to sort some brass by weight and see if there is a discernable different in accuracy. As an example for my 308 brass of 180 to 190 grains are you separating into lots of 10, 5, 2, 1, or even 1/2 grains of ES for one lot of brass? I will also sort some for my 5.56. Just to clarify I already sort by head stamp, this is about sorting by weight. I want to sort some by weight and try it but don't know where to start. Thanks.
 
Well until you spend big bucks on a scale to accurately weigh stuff you'll be wasting your time, I don't do it, and won't, I just use the same headstamp as my case sorting, and at a match where 50% of my brass is lost why brother.
 
I already reload and thus have a scale for measuring. This is not about the benefits of sorting, rather how small of ES on the weights of the brass to sort it in to. I am going to give it a try and see if there is a benefit first had as opposed to trolling around the internet reading regurgitated information.
 
When I owned it, I used to weight sort for my 7mm-08 from necked down .308 lapua brass, I segregated in 2 grain lots. I believe 47/100 cases were in one 2 grain lot. Personally, I did not see discernable difference at 300 yards and discontinued the practice. My rifle shot consitently in the 1.3" range at 300 yards as a reference. Perhaps if it had shot sub 1" I would have been more tempted to continue. I have heard mixed reviews by benchrest guys on volume sorting cases by filling with rubbing alcohol... I do not ultrasonic clean so that does not interest me personally.
 
In my 260 Rem, I sort into 1 gr lots for Remington brass.
I don't bother for Nosler or Lapua brass.
Regards
JCS
 
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Well if your going to sort cases, it would stand to reason that case internal volume is a better measuring tool than the weight of each case.
 
What is the spread of the weight ranges you guys are sorting your brass into? I want to sort some brass by weight and see if there is a discernable different in accuracy. As an example for my 308 brass of 180 to 190 grains are you separating into lots of 10, 5, 2, 1, or even 1/2 grains of ES for one lot of brass? I will also sort some for my 5.56. Just to clarify I already sort by head stamp, this is about sorting by weight. I want to sort some by weight and try it but don't know where to start. Thanks.

I use 2 grains for 308. There is a benefit just to getting the really heavy and really light ones out of the mix. A handful per 100 of fliers that won't happen. Culls to set dies and tools with rather than good cases.

The specific gravity of brass is ~8. 8 grains of brass is 1 grain of water. 1 grain of water capacity in a 308 is ~30 fps, and 1 grain of powder is ~60 fps. So 2 grains of water capacity is the same as 1 grain of powder as far as impact to velocity. The 2 grain spread in brass weight is a 1/4 grain spread in water capacity, or 8 fps, or 0.13 grains of powder.

To get that kind of velocity uniformity, you need to be using extruded powders. To meter those powders that accurately you need to trickle and weigh every round every time. Cases you only sort once and it goes a lot faster than trickling.

The relationship between brass weight and case volume breaks down by the time you're weighing to tenth grains. On the other hand, if you've already sorted on head stamp (again, a one time deal), you'll get secondary benefits from weight sorting like more uniform neck wall thicknesses and response to the sizing die.

If you're shooting at a public range at 100 yards and characterize your skills, ammo, and rifle by the smallest group you shoot, don't bother. If you're shooting far enough for velocity spread to matter, or characterize your day at that public range by the largest group you shoot, then sorting your cases by weight will probably be worth your time.

This is from a combination of experience and things my chrono and Quick Load have told me.
 
When reinventing the wheel why bother asking questions at all?
I will say it again I have sorted brass by weight and by volume. There seems to be very little if any correlation between volume and weight inconsistencies. I did not pioneer these things, thousands of others have had teh same results.

This past weekend I loaded up some 45 year old LC '06 brass. I shot a 3/4" group at 300yds with that brass. I have done the same thing with teh other unsorted brass from that lot of brass a couple times now. This is standard run of the mill brass from M2 ball pull downs. I annealed, sized, and trimmed the brass but it is NOT once fired even. I have weighed this brass before from this lot and it varies by as much as 4 grains across the board.
Your rifle and how much you use it are far more important than what your brass weighs or even your case volume.
I know you want someone to agree with you and tell you what you want to know. Sorry posting a thread doesn't work that way.
 
I think if your trying to eek out that last .1 accuracy from a load, maybe its worth your time.

When I started reloading back when it wasnt cool, I got into all this super fancy crap. Neck turning, weighing cases, sorting bullets by .1 Grains, Etc. Years later I realize this was a waste of time money and energy.

I break brass prep into two catigories 1. Benchrest 2. Field

I learned that I am not a benchrest shooter and pretending to do so in the field is silly

I will trim cases (debur at the same time), debur a flashhole, size them, polish them, load them and shoot them. I will keep them togather with thier friends (headstamp) as that is a measuarable thing.

Soon, I will start exploring annealing as it has it merits. Beyond that I try to shoot more load less

I challenge you, take the same headstamp take the two highest, lowest and two in the middle of the weights. Load them up and shoot them over eachother beyond 100 but less then 500. Now take the cherry picked cases (same headstamp and load) and shoot them at the same range. Then come back with your results, it might prove useful then again as I suspect you will see minimal differance.

Dont just take what you hear on here as solid info, give it a wirl
 
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A year or so ago, the Cast bullet Association printed an article by one of their anal members. Cast bullet shooters are, by definition ANAL. He had tried sorting the cast bullets by weight, by appearance, by spinning...but no matter what he did, he had a flier once in a while. He tried the same tests with "Precision jacketed match bullets" from Sierra and another...I forget whom. Bottom line...lt is incontrovertible that we are dealing with a Bell Curve statistic. The segregated lead bullets would, as the bell curve distribution predicted, throw a flier. So would the "precision" jacketed bullets. In fact, the lead bullets were a little bit better than the precision jacketed bullets. So...what does that tell us? Is it "Where are you on the Bell curve?" I don't think that is exactly correct...those folks who set a record of 3.5 inches at 1000 yards are on the small end of the Bell curve. Our local football team, which have lost 18 of the last 18 games...are on the other end. So...shoot more, think less. JMHO
 
I do plan on finding out first hand if there is a benefit. I like your idea Rprecison of taking the highest and lowest and comparing them to the best ones.
 
You’ll need a chrono to see the difference. You’ll need to have been using it awhile to have enough control over your velocity spread to notice a difference from weight sorting brass. I did anyway. Weighing and filling a few cases to see the correlation between case weight and volume is a worthwhile learning experience too. It’s not 1:1 and by the time you’re down to 2 grains of brass variance you’ve pretty much beaten it to death. Another problem is the lower water density and its surface tension effects really work against the sensitivity of the test. Try it and you’ll see the problem.

As far as doing this with groups, I’ll save you some time and say don’t bother at less than 6-800 yards. My last 6.5CM ladder had a velocity range of 100 fps for 1.8 grains of powder and had a total vertical spread of ~3/4 moa at 400 yards.

Let’s say we’ve controlled the velocity spread due to differences in brass internal volume to 8 fps by sorting and it was 3x that, or 24 fps, without sorting. That probably overstates the effect of breaking it into three 2 grain lots by a little, but it also ignores the culls which really screw things up.

If your ES is 60 fps, the contribution of things other than brass volume is (X^2+24^2)^1/2= 60, X = 55 fps variation from other things. If we drop the 24 fps down to 8 fps, the new expected ES is going to be (55^2+8^2)^2 = 55.6 fps. With 10 shot samples, it’s going to be hard to catch the difference between 60 fps and 56 fps. This is the don’t waste your time group. They shoot lots of good groups, “if they do their part”. This is a large group and I’m not disparaging it in any way.

If your ES is 30 fps, the contribution of things other than brass volume is (X^2+24^2)^1/2= 30 fps, X = 18 fps variation from other things. If we drop the 24 fps down to 8 fps, the new expected ES is going to be (18^2+8^2)^1/2= 19.7 fps. You’ll probably be able to consistently see the difference between 30 and 20. On the chrono anyway.

So why do it? I’m not loading for 400 yards. If I’m stuck developing long range loads at 100 yards, just going through the same hole isn’t nearly good enough, they all have to be going through that hole at the same speed. I am more likely to get more of them to go through that hole, but it would take a lot of shooting to prove it. Using a 175 SMK at 2650 fps, every 30 fps change in velocity gives a vertical impact shift of 12” at 1000 yards, so the difference between 30 fps and 60 fps ES is huge. That doesn’t include barrel timing effects which can be almost as large. If you control your velocities to 30 fps, you have a fighting chance of finding and parking yourself in the middle of an accuracy node. 60 fps, it’s not as likely. Case weighing won’t drop your ES 30 fps, but its part of playing in the 30 fps ES league.

The next part is how much time or money we invest. I already own the digital scale and case bins, so no additional cost there. I put 3 bins in front of me and sort into 2 grain lots, throwing the high and low culls to either side. I can sort about 15 cases a minute using a digital scale. This has about the same effect as switching from dropped to trickled charges, which has to be done for every loading and I sure the hell can’t trickle 15 cases a minute. So if you’re trickling, weight sorting is a good idea. If you’re not, you may not be doing enough to notice any improvement.

Another issue is where the brass came from. My 308 and 223 comes from local LE. If you bought 100 new Lapua cases, the benefits are going to be a lot lower than what I’m discussing here.

Whether or not to do it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. And yes, the group that doesn’t need to do it is much larger than the group that does.
 
I've sorted my 5.56 LC11 brass which I use for competition into .1gn batches. I have not tested for volume with water, so I am assuming that all other factors being the same (full length sized, so outside is the same), same lot of brass (bought 1000 virgin LC11) that if I sort to .1gn, they SHOULD have the same volume. (I don't have a reliable way of measuring the head thickness, which is the only variable I can think of that might mess up my measurment. I don't know if it is necessary to go that far, or if I am not going far enough, but that was as good as my original scale (chargemaster) went. Now, with a Sartorius GD503, I could weigh them to .005gn, but with only 1000, the groups would be too small to get enough for a competition in one group anyway. .1gn seems to be as small as is practical for my use, since to get 70 cases at one time, I often have to go to two different groups (.2gn).
 
I have not tested for volume with water, so I am assuming that all other factors being the same (full length sized, so outside is the same), same lot of brass (bought 1000 virgin LC11) that if I sort to .1gn, they SHOULD have the same volume.

is it a not reading the posts, or a comprehension problem?

your assumption, although is seems logical has been proven wrong by anyone who has made the effort to test it

do not believe it?

then test it, your .1 grain batch will show over 1 gr of water volume variance

still do not believe; than number the cases and perform the test 5 times on each (letting them dry) and average the results

then you will know as much as has been stated multiple times in just this thread, not to mention every where else

or just water volume test if you feel it is justified
 
Ok I do dabble in time travel. That is how I know that in the year 2051 everyone will almost have finally quit weighing brass and are serious about working on personal technique and actual shooting. They quit weighing bullets somewhere around 2036. More good news from February of 2036, the 22lr bubble finally pops and store shelves are once again chock full of cheap rimfire ammo. I was even able to pick up some Lapua Zephyr Plus Super match (their top of the line now) for 9 Pauls(roughly 4.5 ounces of silver and named after the man who put us back on the gold standard in 2023) Equal to about 112K in old reserve notes, but noone will take them anymore and most were burned to stay warm in the bitter cold summer of 2021 when global warming finally caught up with us. But I digress.

LC68 M2 ball, 30-06. The proper way to write headstamp nomenclature is LC followed closely by the year thusly...LC68...not LC 68....not LC '68...etc. There was some 308 manufactured in 68 I am sure with a LC headstamp. So I simply stated it was 45 year old LC '06. Sorry for the confusion.

If you are interested in Hodgdon powders it will be plentiful again in 2025....I will need a lot of cash though....or silver :)
 
Mt take from shooting the Norma 270 wsm brass which was necked up to 7mm on a 314 neck . I prepare 300 cases at a time for shooting F Class comps and on two lots of 300 ive taken the lightest and heaviest cases which were 5.5g different and loaded them as i would for a comp then shot them mid shots within a five shot group and the chrono said they were 9 ft/sec on the first 300 case test and 13 ft/sec on the next 300 so batching / sorting IMHO makes no useable difference . I have not done a volume test so i cannot comment .