Sidearms & Scatterguns Wilson Combat 10mm vs. Wilson Combat 10mm Hunter
- Thread starter Ranger822
- Start date
Uncle Ted's Favorite Guns - Wilson Combat Hunter 1911 - 10mm - YouTube
Uncle Ted's Favorite Guns - STI - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWNYd7QKNg
The wilson combat doesn't seem very impressive after watching the STI video (2nd link). Glock 20 can be just as accurate with a high quality barrel like Bar-Sto.
Recoil - I shot probably 7-10k rds of 10mm last year so I feel qualified to answer on this...
The brake will greatly reduce recoil but only with hot 10mm. However heavier recoil springs go a LONG way in reducing recoil. Plus 10mm handguns are heavier to begin with so that helps as well.
If it was me I'd buy a glock 20 - order up a Bar-Sto barrel. Send in your gun to them and have the barrel completely fitted. (yes it will still be super reliable). Then get the sights you want and a bunch of mags and a bunch of ammo and go shoot. I'd get a 6" barrel or 5.25" threaded barrel and then you have extra barrel length and ability to put a brake on it or take it off or shoot it suppressed - I've done that as well...see some of the other videos)
I also highly recommend Talon grip tape on the Glocks.
10mm suppressed -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e023nbPZksg
Uncle Ted's Favorite Guns - STI - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWNYd7QKNg
The wilson combat doesn't seem very impressive after watching the STI video (2nd link). Glock 20 can be just as accurate with a high quality barrel like Bar-Sto.
Recoil - I shot probably 7-10k rds of 10mm last year so I feel qualified to answer on this...
The brake will greatly reduce recoil but only with hot 10mm. However heavier recoil springs go a LONG way in reducing recoil. Plus 10mm handguns are heavier to begin with so that helps as well.
If it was me I'd buy a glock 20 - order up a Bar-Sto barrel. Send in your gun to them and have the barrel completely fitted. (yes it will still be super reliable). Then get the sights you want and a bunch of mags and a bunch of ammo and go shoot. I'd get a 6" barrel or 5.25" threaded barrel and then you have extra barrel length and ability to put a brake on it or take it off or shoot it suppressed - I've done that as well...see some of the other videos)
I also highly recommend Talon grip tape on the Glocks.
10mm suppressed -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e023nbPZksg
Thanks for the recommendation. I continue to marvel at what A treasure trove of info is available here. Although I had considered a gen4 Glock in 10 mm, I really hadn't considered modding it. There are obviously a lot of folks assisting with thinking outside the box.
The Glock Factory 10mm barrels tend to have very loose chambers - which has showed in testing to lower velocity, it also raises the risk of a kaboom, and the rifling in the factory barrel isn't exactly favorable to hardcast bullets or the 135gr noslers...tumble...even at short range.
That said I'd take a factory barrel over a lone wolf and maybe even a storm lake. (the storm lakes I've had have had such tight chambers it was hard to get anything to be reliable.
That said I'd take a factory barrel over a lone wolf and maybe even a storm lake. (the storm lakes I've had have had such tight chambers it was hard to get anything to be reliable.
I'd steer clear of any 10mm's built on 1911 frames. 1911 was designed for a low pressure cartridge; 10mm is MUCH higher pressure. Lots of problems with cracks on the (frame? slide? --I'm not a 1911 guy, but am a 10mm guy).
So I have a Smith 1006, hands down the most robust 10mm. It is actually overbuilt for the 10mm. The .45ACP version they make (4506) is WAY overbuilt. I think they use 'em for custom mods for hot .45 wildcats.
I also have the G20SF and a G29. I like 'em both. Generally, the 1006 can handle the most brutal handloads though. The G20 needs 'em backed off just a bit, and the G29 just a bit more. But 1250-1300+ fps out of a 10mm using a 180gr. Gold Dot bullet ain't no joke.
Both the 1006 and other Smiths, in addition to the G20, were the ORIGINAL platforms. What I mean is, the .45ACP G21 and 4506, Glock and Smith respectively, were both designed to handle 10mm FIRST and were modified to handle .45. That's smart. The 1911, however, was designed as a .45. So 10mm I suspect stresses the hell out of it. It is also the reason, I was told and read numerous places, that 10mm ammo is watered down now. While the G20 and 1006 can handle stiff loads, the weak link was the 1911, and so ammo had to be engineered for the weak link. Hence why factory 10mm defense loads are seldom more than 100fps hotter than .40 standard ammo.
10mm is my favorite pistol round: it's accurate, long range, hard hitting. Very versatile in loads with 155's to 180's shining in my opinion, 200FMJ's good for wilderness handgun. Hands down my favorite handgun to shoot, though I carry a G27 .40 more often, truth be told.
There are a few other makes, EAA? Never used them. Just prefer the three I have, as they are considered the cream of the crop when it comes to 10mm's.
Good luck, but I'd HIGHLY recommend you don't mess with 10mm if you don't handload. For many reasons, one it's expensive to buy factory, two the factory loads are neutered. Unless you get the 1911, then they are kind of made for it. But you'd be better off with a .40 in that case! If you don't handload, the .45ACP is a damn good alternative, cheaper with more available loads.
So I have a Smith 1006, hands down the most robust 10mm. It is actually overbuilt for the 10mm. The .45ACP version they make (4506) is WAY overbuilt. I think they use 'em for custom mods for hot .45 wildcats.
I also have the G20SF and a G29. I like 'em both. Generally, the 1006 can handle the most brutal handloads though. The G20 needs 'em backed off just a bit, and the G29 just a bit more. But 1250-1300+ fps out of a 10mm using a 180gr. Gold Dot bullet ain't no joke.
Both the 1006 and other Smiths, in addition to the G20, were the ORIGINAL platforms. What I mean is, the .45ACP G21 and 4506, Glock and Smith respectively, were both designed to handle 10mm FIRST and were modified to handle .45. That's smart. The 1911, however, was designed as a .45. So 10mm I suspect stresses the hell out of it. It is also the reason, I was told and read numerous places, that 10mm ammo is watered down now. While the G20 and 1006 can handle stiff loads, the weak link was the 1911, and so ammo had to be engineered for the weak link. Hence why factory 10mm defense loads are seldom more than 100fps hotter than .40 standard ammo.
10mm is my favorite pistol round: it's accurate, long range, hard hitting. Very versatile in loads with 155's to 180's shining in my opinion, 200FMJ's good for wilderness handgun. Hands down my favorite handgun to shoot, though I carry a G27 .40 more often, truth be told.
There are a few other makes, EAA? Never used them. Just prefer the three I have, as they are considered the cream of the crop when it comes to 10mm's.
Good luck, but I'd HIGHLY recommend you don't mess with 10mm if you don't handload. For many reasons, one it's expensive to buy factory, two the factory loads are neutered. Unless you get the 1911, then they are kind of made for it. But you'd be better off with a .40 in that case! If you don't handload, the .45ACP is a damn good alternative, cheaper with more available loads.
Chambers aren't THAT loose. They are looser than, say, a 1006 or an aftermarket barrel, but Glock was made to be reliable first. Aftermarket barrels can hinder this. In addition, the polygonal rifling actually increases velocity by around 50+ fps on average. The problem I have running the same loads in the Glock as the 1006 simply has to do with recoil: the G20 is so light it feels like it will "come apart" with very high power loads. But that's just due to the flex of the plastic frame. Still, no problems ever, and I don't load "hot" loads per se, I load 'em within ranges given and chrono them to double check.
Also, when handloading, which is advised with 10mm if you plan on using it much, the act of the taper crimp helps to seat the round in the chamber a tad tighter --you have control over that. Folks like to do it just to the point of reliably chambering. This can be done with tighter chambers or the factory Glock ones. If the rest of the chamber being loose is a problem, then that problem generally is related to hotter loads. As long as they are within spec, and you aren't getting definite Glock smiles and flattened primers, then they are likely fine.
The brass tells a lot. With too much, they'll let you know. Glock smiles aren't as bad as they used to be either, they've slowly and quietly changed the ramp over the years. Still not fully supported, but not like they were years ago that was suspected to cause all the kabooms, which generally happened in .40's mostly anyway due to the very limited range between min. and max. loads. To this day, I only load fairly weak target loads. And even then, some can come close to being "hot". You have very little wiggle room with the .40, particularly seating depth wrt. to significant pressure increase; much more so than with the 10mm (another reason I like it) which due to the higher case capacity isn't as finicky. I've had .40 factory loads nearly come apart. Never seen a 10mm load, even hot ones, come close to that.
He's right about not using lead bullets though in factory Glock barrels (some folks do, but it's risky and you gotta clean it a lot, especially before firing jackets again). And 135's don't work that well because the 10mm usually throws 'em too damn fast, from my experience. Since the twist is the same with most pistol barrels, velocity has to be the culprit. The heavier bullets work better in it anyway, and jacketed or plated always (careful with plated). If I were gonna get an aftermarket barrel, the only one I'd consider is Barsto, a fitted barrel at that, and even then only for competition.
G20: reliable, fairly accurate out of the box (needs Trijicon or other metal sights though, that plastic needs to go).
G29: same, but more recoil and little less velocity.
1006: not as reliable as Glock, a bit finicky, but a tank and can apparently handle loads well I wouldn't try personally.
1911: accurate as hell, reliability hit or miss (finicky on loads I hear) and not made sound enough for true 10mm loads.
EAA Witness: don't know much about 'em. Heard they are "not bad" but considering the price, I'd go with another.
Bren Ten: They remade this thing, wasn't popular to begin with, doubt it will be again.
Smith 610 Revolver: one bad MF for sure. Revolvers can handle some stout loads. Also fires .40. Uses moon clips. I'd like one of these but have no real use for one.
There's a 10mm magnum too, not sure what chambers it. It's a bad MF too.
Thanks for the detailed recommendations. Thorough and objective. I plan to reload so I am tracking with you. I hadn't really considered the point about the engineering to support a specific round but your argument against a 1911 based platform for the 10mm has merit. For my budget a Wilson Hunter in 10mm seems pretty much at the outermost limits. Whereas a Glock 20 can be totally dressed out for substantially less. Just curious if the Gen 4 with then new grip represents any advantage or disadvantage when trying to fire those hotter hand loads? I have read where folks havevfelt the need for something to augment the grip. Clearly, I want to take advantage of a non-watered down, else I would just stick my .45.
I've no experience with the 1006 and 1076, but can say they're the only "classic" smith automatics I wouldn't mind owning. I disagree however, they'll handle more than a G20 fitted with a heavy recoil spring. My G20/29 can handle anything the brass can. The brass is the limiter, not the gun - at least with the Glock.
The EAA is a fine 10mm, not a damb thing wrong with them. You get a lot for your money, they're a CZ75 clone. Same with the Been Ten, by the way.
As a lover of the 10mm, I always follow threads about them. Over the course of the three years I've been on the hide, I've found [MENTION=2925]300WSM[/MENTION] to be HIGHLY knowledgeable about the cartridge. You can take what he says to the bank.
Oh yeah: don't forget about the G20c. The comp on them is very effective. I've a G21c which I LOVE. I'll buy a G20c one of these days.
Lastly: start looking for IMR800x now. It does amazing things in a 10mm.
The EAA is a fine 10mm, not a damb thing wrong with them. You get a lot for your money, they're a CZ75 clone. Same with the Been Ten, by the way.
As a lover of the 10mm, I always follow threads about them. Over the course of the three years I've been on the hide, I've found [MENTION=2925]300WSM[/MENTION] to be HIGHLY knowledgeable about the cartridge. You can take what he says to the bank.
Oh yeah: don't forget about the G20c. The comp on them is very effective. I've a G21c which I LOVE. I'll buy a G20c one of these days.
Lastly: start looking for IMR800x now. It does amazing things in a 10mm.
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before you write off the 1911s - i'd call wilson combat ...well personally I'd just call STI cuz there is no way I'd buy anything 1911 10mm other than the STI perfect 10 but that's just me. heh Anyway call them and see what they say as far as what it can handle.
If your buying factory ammo check out - Underwood Ammo Web Site - Home Corbon makes some interesting loads as well. I like the 150gr and the 155gr DPX.
If your hand loading it's well known that 800x is a great powder for 10mm. But meters fer crap so it can be slow doing it.
You could also look into G21 45 - 40 super conversion or 460rowland conversion
Glock 21 40 Super Ammo Test - Accuracy, Velocity, Recoil - YouTube
Glock 21 460 Rowland Ammo Test: Accuracy, Velocity, Recoil - YouTube
The factory 10mm g20 barrel is loose as a goose and unsupported. Period end of story. Figure you'll lose probably 50-75fps vs something like KKM or Bar-sto. Lonewolf is tight chamber but unsupported (well lately they seem to be unsupported ...older ones have full support) Storm lake is full support but so tight it doesn't feed well at all. KKM or Bar-sto are the only guys you want to mess with. If you want to do it right just get Barsto end of story.
If your buying factory ammo check out - Underwood Ammo Web Site - Home Corbon makes some interesting loads as well. I like the 150gr and the 155gr DPX.
If your hand loading it's well known that 800x is a great powder for 10mm. But meters fer crap so it can be slow doing it.
You could also look into G21 45 - 40 super conversion or 460rowland conversion
Glock 21 40 Super Ammo Test - Accuracy, Velocity, Recoil - YouTube
Glock 21 460 Rowland Ammo Test: Accuracy, Velocity, Recoil - YouTube
The factory 10mm g20 barrel is loose as a goose and unsupported. Period end of story. Figure you'll lose probably 50-75fps vs something like KKM or Bar-sto. Lonewolf is tight chamber but unsupported (well lately they seem to be unsupported ...older ones have full support) Storm lake is full support but so tight it doesn't feed well at all. KKM or Bar-sto are the only guys you want to mess with. If you want to do it right just get Barsto end of story.
I will definitely want to reload. The Glock 20 looks good. I should be able to work up a satisfactory load. Part of my inspiration for going with a 10mm was I live on Cheyenne Mountain and bears are pretty frequent visitors in my neighborhood. My concern was carrying a .45 on our trail walks or even having something around the house for family protection might not be enough. The 10mm seemed like a reasonable alternative without getting something really uncomfortable to carry like a Desert Eagle or "The Judge." The bears like to work the streets on trash day and they can get a bit pushy.
Let's clear up a couple of misconceptions. It's good you laid it out though because I hear this a lot. No offense meant by any of this either (more disclaimer at the bottom).
In order…
1.
Original 1911's that have been "converted" to 10mm do have issues with pressure, extraction, and other malfunctions. That's true and generally affects older 1911's and those that were built specifically for other calibers (like .45ACP). However, many modern 1911's chambered in 10mm have been built from the ground-up by folks like Wilson Combat, STI, Kimber, Rock Island Armory, etc., specifically to withstand the pressure and function perfectly well. There's a big difference between converting a pistol to 10mm versus building a pistol to 10mm. The same thing applies to Glocks or any semi-auto pistol. For example, despite that it fits, you don't want to simply drop a 10mm barrel into a Glock 21 slide because the extractor will cause failure-to-feed problems, the 17# spring will cause heavy recoil and shorten the life of the firearm (if you plan on using hot ammo like Buffalo Bore or Doubletap anyway). Point is, 1911 is a perfectly suitable frame for 10mm.
2.
It's a great gun indeed, but it's not "overbuilt". It's barrel specs are almost identical to it's sister Colt. That's good though because it means it can handle hotter loads safely. This is the same premise as buying a .38 or .357 that is rated for +P ammunition. Using the term "overbuilt" doesn't really mean anything in this context.
3.
The G20 can handle the hottest loads on the market, same as many other 10mm pistols. Again, it's like saying it can fire +P ammunition. Some manufacturers do this while others don't. Generally the ones that don't are opting for a lighter gun, perhaps marketing it more towards being a carry weapon. Those that build to heavier dimensions (like Glock, Wilson Combat, et al) are also marketing to the hunting and competition crowd. It's a trade off - weight versus load. For the record, the G20/21 frame doesn't care. The G20 "upper" is the only part that matters. If you've got a G21 for example, swapping out the recoil spring (say, for something heavier like 20#) and a 10mm slide, barrel, ejector, etc (see the guys at Lone Wolf Dist) will get you two guns for the price of one-and-a-half and you'll be able to swap uppers from .45 to 10mm no problem and shoot the hottest loads of each no problem. For hunting, obviously go with a longer barrel (like 6") to generate even more pressure and muzzle velocity from the 10mm.
3.
Historically, the Glock 20 and 21 came about at the same time (as did many other .45 and 10mm counterparts) but they are in fact different guns. Yes it's true the frames are the same, and this is one of the things that makes Glock so versatile, but the specs for the Glock uppers are different - different enough that as I said you don't want to mix and match barrels and such without swapping out several other components at the same time (it's simple, but needs to be done or you'll damage the gun, or your wrists, over time). It's not accurate to say any of these guns were built first to handle one of the other. To save money and aid in compatibility, manufacturers will often reuse parts from one model to another (car and electronic manufacturers do this too). But the G20 and G21 are in fact distinct firearms, despite the fact you can evolve one into the other by making various modifications.
Related to ammo, 10mm like any other ammo comes in different flavors. Before the FBI gave up on 10mm entirely they tried "watered down" ammo to see if that would solve their other training issues. Since then, "watered down" 10mm still has it's place. It's great for target shooting and carry defense. For hunting the flatter trajectory of hotter loads over longer distances works better. Still, round-for-round there's much more "watered down" 10mm on the market because you'll shoot more of it at the range. That's a good thing. Buffalo Bore, Core-Bon, Doubletap and many others make plenty good hotter 10mm for hunting and defense.
4.
Can't argue there
5.
10mm is becoming popular again with more folks going pistol hunting and an increase in the number of mods from even more reputable third-party folks. Reminds me of when Merlot came back in style a decade or so ago. I think a movie had something to do with it. It was huge in the 70s too. Point is, stuff comes around. Maybe it the last vestige of the 80s rebirth due to Don Johnson and his Bren Ten. Who knows. What was the popular gun of the 90s? That's probably due next!
6.
Again, factory loads are not necessarily neutered but because 10mm has so much versatility, it's available in more formats. The most common format is a lighter load because more of those bullets go down range than anything else. So you do need to check out grain weight and FPS more so on 10mm than say .223 or .45, but no more than you might look for "high velocity" on .22LR or +P on your .38. Check out gunbroker or wherever for tons of choices.
No gun is more suited than any other for 10mm provided that the gun isn't a hack of something else to squeeze in 10mm. That's not the case at all with any of the brands mentioned by name in this thread. Every one has a 10mm model that's perfectly suited for 10mm loads of all types. Barrel length plays the biggest role in pressure anyhow because longer barrels compress more gas to propel the bullets further - so getting a 4.5" Glock is going to shoot any bullet slower than the same bullet coming out of a 6" barrel.
The whole purpose of 10mm isn't that it's better than .40, .41 or .44 Mag or even .357 Mag. It's beauty is simply that 10mm packs enough punch that only makes it comparable to these rounds, allows for a smaller and lighter shell, which means you can use it in a semi-auto and pack a heck-of-a lot of ammo into a single magazine. You can't do that with .44 Mag, not that there's anything wrong with that round either. For personal defense, not everyone wants to carry a Dirty Harry. For hunting, some folks want to carry their city gun into the woods. The point of 10mm fills a niche. Don't let anyone talk you out of it
(No offense meant to Strykervet! Wanted to clear up some misconceptions, that's all. You have excellent taste in weaponry!)
In order…
1.
Original 1911's that have been "converted" to 10mm do have issues with pressure, extraction, and other malfunctions. That's true and generally affects older 1911's and those that were built specifically for other calibers (like .45ACP). However, many modern 1911's chambered in 10mm have been built from the ground-up by folks like Wilson Combat, STI, Kimber, Rock Island Armory, etc., specifically to withstand the pressure and function perfectly well. There's a big difference between converting a pistol to 10mm versus building a pistol to 10mm. The same thing applies to Glocks or any semi-auto pistol. For example, despite that it fits, you don't want to simply drop a 10mm barrel into a Glock 21 slide because the extractor will cause failure-to-feed problems, the 17# spring will cause heavy recoil and shorten the life of the firearm (if you plan on using hot ammo like Buffalo Bore or Doubletap anyway). Point is, 1911 is a perfectly suitable frame for 10mm.
2.
It's a great gun indeed, but it's not "overbuilt". It's barrel specs are almost identical to it's sister Colt. That's good though because it means it can handle hotter loads safely. This is the same premise as buying a .38 or .357 that is rated for +P ammunition. Using the term "overbuilt" doesn't really mean anything in this context.
3.
The G20 can handle the hottest loads on the market, same as many other 10mm pistols. Again, it's like saying it can fire +P ammunition. Some manufacturers do this while others don't. Generally the ones that don't are opting for a lighter gun, perhaps marketing it more towards being a carry weapon. Those that build to heavier dimensions (like Glock, Wilson Combat, et al) are also marketing to the hunting and competition crowd. It's a trade off - weight versus load. For the record, the G20/21 frame doesn't care. The G20 "upper" is the only part that matters. If you've got a G21 for example, swapping out the recoil spring (say, for something heavier like 20#) and a 10mm slide, barrel, ejector, etc (see the guys at Lone Wolf Dist) will get you two guns for the price of one-and-a-half and you'll be able to swap uppers from .45 to 10mm no problem and shoot the hottest loads of each no problem. For hunting, obviously go with a longer barrel (like 6") to generate even more pressure and muzzle velocity from the 10mm.
3.
Historically, the Glock 20 and 21 came about at the same time (as did many other .45 and 10mm counterparts) but they are in fact different guns. Yes it's true the frames are the same, and this is one of the things that makes Glock so versatile, but the specs for the Glock uppers are different - different enough that as I said you don't want to mix and match barrels and such without swapping out several other components at the same time (it's simple, but needs to be done or you'll damage the gun, or your wrists, over time). It's not accurate to say any of these guns were built first to handle one of the other. To save money and aid in compatibility, manufacturers will often reuse parts from one model to another (car and electronic manufacturers do this too). But the G20 and G21 are in fact distinct firearms, despite the fact you can evolve one into the other by making various modifications.
Related to ammo, 10mm like any other ammo comes in different flavors. Before the FBI gave up on 10mm entirely they tried "watered down" ammo to see if that would solve their other training issues. Since then, "watered down" 10mm still has it's place. It's great for target shooting and carry defense. For hunting the flatter trajectory of hotter loads over longer distances works better. Still, round-for-round there's much more "watered down" 10mm on the market because you'll shoot more of it at the range. That's a good thing. Buffalo Bore, Core-Bon, Doubletap and many others make plenty good hotter 10mm for hunting and defense.
4.
Can't argue there
5.
10mm is becoming popular again with more folks going pistol hunting and an increase in the number of mods from even more reputable third-party folks. Reminds me of when Merlot came back in style a decade or so ago. I think a movie had something to do with it. It was huge in the 70s too. Point is, stuff comes around. Maybe it the last vestige of the 80s rebirth due to Don Johnson and his Bren Ten. Who knows. What was the popular gun of the 90s? That's probably due next!
6.
Again, factory loads are not necessarily neutered but because 10mm has so much versatility, it's available in more formats. The most common format is a lighter load because more of those bullets go down range than anything else. So you do need to check out grain weight and FPS more so on 10mm than say .223 or .45, but no more than you might look for "high velocity" on .22LR or +P on your .38. Check out gunbroker or wherever for tons of choices.
No gun is more suited than any other for 10mm provided that the gun isn't a hack of something else to squeeze in 10mm. That's not the case at all with any of the brands mentioned by name in this thread. Every one has a 10mm model that's perfectly suited for 10mm loads of all types. Barrel length plays the biggest role in pressure anyhow because longer barrels compress more gas to propel the bullets further - so getting a 4.5" Glock is going to shoot any bullet slower than the same bullet coming out of a 6" barrel.
The whole purpose of 10mm isn't that it's better than .40, .41 or .44 Mag or even .357 Mag. It's beauty is simply that 10mm packs enough punch that only makes it comparable to these rounds, allows for a smaller and lighter shell, which means you can use it in a semi-auto and pack a heck-of-a lot of ammo into a single magazine. You can't do that with .44 Mag, not that there's anything wrong with that round either. For personal defense, not everyone wants to carry a Dirty Harry. For hunting, some folks want to carry their city gun into the woods. The point of 10mm fills a niche. Don't let anyone talk you out of it
(No offense meant to Strykervet! Wanted to clear up some misconceptions, that's all. You have excellent taste in weaponry!)
