Am I wrong for looking at a Rem 700 SPS tact.?

[Winny94]

I am new to the world of bolt actions (spent all other time with ARs and shotguns), and I wanted a shorty bolt action. I was immediately drawn to the SPS 700 16.5" (85538) because I'm comfortable with the 700 action, but then it occurred to me, maybe that's not my best option. I'm looking for a complete rifle in the $500-$600 range with the ability to eventually change the stock and possibly trigger. I can't afford (nor have the ability to justify) the costs of some the rifles I see here.

What I'm looking for is a 600 yard rifle that can also be used for hunting medium sized game (.308) with a short barrel (16"-18")

I'm open to suggestions as I know Remington recently has had QC issues with their lever guns, but I don't know if that extended to their bolt actions.

 

[Elite_KG]

Go at least 20"!

 

[hewlett260]

Yeah their bolt actions have had issues. Honestly your best bet is the police or police LTR. Closer to the $900 price point but better chance of not being Fucked up right off the bat. I got rid of my SPS tactical 308 because it just wasn't consistent at any range with any load. Even the 5R models have been having issues.

 

[Andy27AL]

The LTR is excellent. I own one and have had no problems whatsoever. The 700 AAC is also one to look at as it is cheaper, you may want to change out the stock down the road but many have been happy with them so far.

 

[JGorski]

I hate short barrels, go at least 22". My suggestion for the day.

 

[Winny94]

There really is no advantage for a barrel longer than 18" for my intended purposes... Just unnecessary weight.

 

[Hunt4life]

Get what you want, but inspect the gun closely first. Have them pull the stock and check the lug to make sure it is straight. I would consider savage and Remington, but would not spend much on the supposed upgraded models. Save that money for down the road.

There are crap rifles at all price points so check and make sure the obvious stuff is right.

 

[fdkay]

Howa 20" HB.
No need for a new trigger, add a good stock later.

You will thank me.

 

[Smcarroll]

Look it over good before buying and keep your expectations realistic. I had problems with a sps this spring and Remington fixed it right up.

 

[turbo54]

Howa 20" HB.
No need for a new trigger, add a good stock later.

You will thank me.

+1 on this fine advice.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I like my 20” SPS Tactical, it’s a nice, handy, compact and well balanced rifle. I have been very impressed with the accuracy it is capable of at 100 to 1000.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...846-308-remington-tactical-work-progress.html
That said, I wish it launched my 175’s and 168’s a little faster. I also have a 18” AAC barreled 308 as well, to be honest, I don’t find it any more handy other than it weighs a little less but that is not a fair comparison as it is also a lighter contour than the Remington Varmint profile the tactical has and heats up faster because of it. I know its personal preference, but I would not wish to lose the additional velocity from the 16.5” barrel.

 

[flylo]

Dicks Sporting goods is giving $200 off Rem HB Varmint rifles for black friday Sale $399 I was told it starts 8 PM thurs. Please confirm before going. I chose a Savage 18.5" tactical, HB, TM, Tact bold handle. A real shooter, accu trigger. I love it! I have Sig SSG 3000s but wanted something lifgt & short I can put a can on. Good luck!

 

[Sierra-one]

I would go for a tikka t3
In my opinion the remingtons are poorly finished , they have badly constructed case extractors and im not realy a fan of there bold release
I have seen bolds that just carry on one lug and some that carry on one or two millimeters
Its not a safety hazzard but jou will end up with to mutch headspace in the future
I do have to say that they shoot well

 

[ArmyJerry]

Take a look at the Savage Hog Hunter

 

[surffly]

I bought the AAC-SD for the twist rate mostly.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

the Howa 308 is a good choice. Their quality and consistency is much better then Remington. The stock is the same as a sps tactical. U can get a Bell and Carlson for it later. Having said that, if you can find a used LTR or 700 Police that fits ur budget and is in good shape that would be a good option. I bought a lightly used LTR the other day for $700, but i think i was lucky to find that. It shoots very well with factory match ammo too, so i give a thumbs up to the LTR.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I bought the AAC-SD for the twist rate mostly.

A 1:10 twist on a 308 isn't needed and is no benefit unless you're shooting subsonics. A 1:12 will stabilize everything up to and including the 190 SMK and 208 Amax if you feel the need to launch a big bullet slow. In the optimal bullet weight range for the 308 which IMO is 150-190gr there is no projectile a 1:12 won't stabilize. All things similar (barrel and length) a 1:12 will also be a little faster than a 1:10.

Unless you shoot subs dismissing a rifle choice because of a twist rate that is optimal is foolish.


+1 on the Howa/Vanguard. They are great rifles, the only downside is aftermarket availability so research anything you may want to do to it before buying. Just make sure you get a newer one with the two stage trigger.

 

[surffly]

I was under the impression that the 1:10 would do better with heavier projectiles at longer range?

 

[roggom]

^^ As stated before it depends on what bullet you want to use. The 208's and greater may do better with the 1:10, but most common bullets will do fine with a 1:12. (i/e 168, 175, 178, 190)

The Remington 5R is 1:11.25

Tikka varmint, scout and tactical are 1:11

If you look at the GA Precision "Milspec" rifles they are all 1:12

USMC M40A1


In the end it depends on the intended purpose and true shooting range of the rifle. Many guys buy a rifle with the golden "1000 yard" requirement, but end up shooting 500.


OP If you truly want a Remington, opt for the LTR. In most scenarios you will/may purchase a 20" tactical, replace the stock and trigger and end up with something like the LTR in the end. The LTR is light and handy.

If you have a Cabelas near you, keep an eye open for Tikka T3. The varmint or scout will go on sale once or twice a year.

 

[Dacam]

I had an option to go 1-10 twist or 1-12, I went with the 1-12 and couldn't be happier. I launch 155g - 185g with great success.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I was under the impression that the 1:10 would do better with heavier projectiles at longer range?

If its stable close in its going to be stable far out. Some will argue that a faster twist may help the bullet remain stabilized after going transonic but there is really nothing to back it up. I have shot 175 SMK's in 1:12's at distances they were certainly transonic and they flew straight.

 

[seg_steve]

I had a Remington 700 SPS Tactical 20" that was a good shooter. I also had a Remington 700 XCR Compact Tactical 20" that was absolutely incredible out of the box. Probably the most accurate factory produced rifle I ever owned.

 

[Winny94]

I know this info is out there but I'm on a phone so it's hard to surf a lot: what upgrades do I get with the 700P or 700 LTR over the SPS Tact. AAC?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Police models have a HS precision stock which is a huge improvement over the hogue and retails around $350, used take offs go for about $300. They have the 40X trigger which is much better than the Xmark, and it has a parkerized finish vs whatever crappy cheap finish remington is using on their base models these days. The LTR has a fluted barrel as well.

Some say Remington puts more quality control into the police models but they're build on the same assembly line.

Assuming all else is equal to upgrade the SPS it would cost you $250 to get a takeoff stock, $50-60 for a 40X or old style trigger, and about $100 plus back and forth shipping to have the metal parkerized. Another $150 if you want it fluted too. Depending on what you want it's either worth the cost or isn't. If you want a well equipped factory rifle you never have to dick with then buy a police or LTR. If you don't think you'll be happy with them then buy the SPS and upgrade it as you wish.

 

[garandman]

Yes. Its immoral.

 

[DRAGON64]

I watched gunbroker over the last two weeks, and finally ran across a sale out of Florida for a Rem 700 SPS-T for $580 shipped. Then, jsut before I sent off my FFL data and money order for the rifle, I ran across a Remington 5R take off stock deal for $245... I am really hoping that this is $825 well spent. I'm now waiting on both items to arrive.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I was under the impression that the 1:10 would do better with heavier projectiles at longer range?

Velocity decays faster than the rate of twist the barrel imparted to the bullet at release. Stable at the muzzle has equaled stable at the target for me as well. On a whim I bought an 18” 1:8 twist 308 barrel with the idea of testing a certain manufacture’s video guest and contributing author in a certain yearly publication who seems to feel it’s a good thing to shoot inadequate bullets by over stabilizing them in 1:8-1:4 twists so one can shoot extraordinary distances with ease, LOL. There are other reasons for this purchase but that tipped me over the edge as I viewed it as a challenge. Truth is I have lost some motivation as I am having difficulty getting it to shoot anything well. A shout out to Frank Green here on the hide from Bartlein Barrels who has given me some helpful advice. But I am far from where I want to be... yet.

In my experience shooting 15-1000 yards in 20-26” barrels in bullet weights of 155-190 at standard 308 velocities (2400-2900)... a 1:12 twist will do it well without creating other problems for you to watch out for. When a bullet slows down to near transonic flight, I am still of the opinion the bullet design plays a bigger role in how it will transition than twist rate... Now if you want to drop down to 1050fps at the muzzle, a 1:12 twist may not be the best choice... it just depends on what is being launched.

what upgrades do I get with the 700P or 700 LTR over the SPS Tact. AAC?

Redneckbmxer24 and I are in different environments and in mine the finish on the SPS has been good enough, YMMV.

To add a little to which model to choose:

If you want the cheapest option and plan to outfit it to your liking and fit, the SPS makes sense.
But if you like the stock on the PSS, LTR or 5r then go for one of those right out of the box.

I replace my stock triggers with Timney 2-2.5 pound triggers but an Xmark can be improved quite a bit with the replacement of a spring. See here. Trigger Springs|Aluminum Pillar|Pillar Bedding|Gunsmithing
I have zero experience with a 40x trigger...

 

[Smcarroll]

I had a Remington 700 SPS Tactical 20" that was a good shooter. I also had a Remington 700 XCR Compact Tactical 20" that was absolutely incredible out of the box. Probably the most accurate factory produced rifle I ever owned.

The XCR LRT rifles are gems. I have a 300 Wm I shot the barrel out of and a still new in box 338 lm I am going to build here soon. Absolutely wonderful rifles.

 

[The Gump]

I am new to the world of bolt actions (spent all other time with ARs and shotguns), and I wanted a shorty bolt action. I was immediately drawn to the SPS 700 16.5" (85538) because I'm comfortable with the 700 action, but then it occurred to me, maybe that's not my best option. I'm looking for a complete rifle in the $500-$600 range with the ability to eventually change the stock and possibly trigger. I can't afford (nor have the ability to justify) the costs of some the rifles I see here.

What I'm looking for is a 600 yard rifle that can also be used for hunting medium sized game (.308) with a short barrel (16"-18")

I'm open to suggestions as I know Remington recently has had QC issues with their lever guns, but I don't know if that extended to their bolt actions.

I would go with the Remington simply due to the fact that it is the SBC of bolt actions. There are go gobbs of aftermarket companies to choose from that have proven themselves in the market place for future upgrades and gunsmiths have tons of replacement parts for them.

I would buy a quality stock, bottom metal(been eyeing the APA M5 for my hunting rifle), and install an a tuned old style flat back trigger($50). I would also pillar bed it and maybe install an extended bolt knob.

If you ever use a can it should balance nicely with the 16" barrel and the 1-10" twist will help you stabilize the heavies since you don't really have velocity on your side.

My last factory R700 .308 shot .7-1.0 but if you can hold it, in theory thats 6" @ 600 yards so it doesn't really matter.

 

[6xcKY]

If youre really going to get serious about shooting, and doing it on a budget, may I suggest the following?...

Find the cheapest Remington 700 new or used you can find in good shape, preferably under $300-$350.
Strip it, barrel, stock, trigger, everything, only thing you are interested in is the action.
Sell it for what you can get, probably $50-$100 bucks and then you are only looking $250-$300 for a good start action.
Send it to a smith, and get a nice custom barrel (Krieger, Hart, Bartlien, etc.) for the $300-$400 range.
Next get a good trigger when you can, Timney, Jewell, etc., and your almost set.
Next, look on ebay and gunbroker and HERE especially for a good take off stock, HS Precision, Manners, anything is better than factory thatll free float.

At this point you will be in the 800-900 range but have a WAY better rifle than the SPS Tactical and I am speaking from experience...

 

[Graham]

All things similar (barrel and length) a 1:12 will also be a little faster than a 1:10.

By how much?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I was never good at math but simple physics says with all things equal a slower twist will spit it out faster. It would be a very hard thing to actually test though.

 

[Graham]

I was never good at math but simple physics says with all things equal a slower twist will spit it out faster. It would be a very hard thing to actually test though.

It would be an even harder thing to measure.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Without a doubt. I've gotten two identical factory Remington's with same barrel date code and everything and they had a 50FPS velocity difference on the same day with the same ammo. There's a lot of factors that come into play to the point no two barrels (especially factory) are likely going to run the same. In theory though a 1:10 with the same rifling profile should be slower than a 1:12.

 

[Why1504]

Spin slower, yes. Fly slower? Please school me. If the energy is being expended to spin the bullet faster resulting in the projectile flying in a more stable path, how does this induce a faster muzzle velocity with less energy available to push the projectile.

 

[Graham]

Am I wrong for looking at a Rem 700 SPS tact.?

Spin slower, yes. Fly slower? Please school me. If the energy is being expended to spin the bullet faster resulting in the projectile flying in a more stable path, how does this induce a faster muzzle velocity with less energy available to push the projectile.

His present position is 'in theory' slower, no longer is he saying that it is actually slower. He is closer to being correct now.

 

[6xcKY]

You had better take a 1:10 over a 1:12 if you get the chance OP but thats my opinion.

I seen a SPS Tactical 1:12 with 44gr of Reloader 15 behind a 175gr SMK shoot 100+fps slower than a M24 1:10 with the same load but only 42.5gr R15.

 

[Why1504]

His present position is 'in theory' slower, no longer is he saying that it is actually slower. He is closer to being correct now.

OK. My understanding has always been the advantage of a faster twist rate barrel is its ability to stabilize a heavier bullet at the expense of velocity. This is of real value with subsonic loads. However, there is always a sweet spot between spin rate and bullet rate depending on mission. Further, one reason we tune a load to a gun is based on this relationship. Depending on the gun it might like a little slower powder or a little bit more of a faster powder for a given bullet weight inside of a given twist rate. If I am wrong here please correct me. Heck, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am just an old redneck who grew up in Alabama.

 

[Graham]

OK. My understanding has always been the advantage of a faster twist rate barrel is its ability to stabilize a heavier bullet at the expense of velocity. This is of real value with subsonic loads. However, there is always a sweet spot between spin rate and bullet rate depending on mission. Further, one reason we tune a load to a gun is based on this relationship. Depending on the gun it might like a little slower powder or a little bit more of a faster powder for a given bullet weight inside of a given twist rate. If I am wrong here please correct me. Heck, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am just an old redneck who grew up in Alabama.

Not exactly: There is no velocity tax. Bullets are either spinning fast enough to be stable, or they aren't.

First, your rifle needs a twist rate fast enough to stabilize the longest bullet that you shoot. Period.

Second, and the reason for faster twists on a .308 in short barreled long range rifles, is that the longer the bullet is in flight the more spin it needs to keep rotating smoothly around its rotational center. The faster twist keeps the spin doing it's job longer, which is to ward off the effect of outside (and some inside) influences on its trajectory.

Assuming that twist is the only difference between two barrels, A PT graph might show a faster spike on the faster barrel, and a 6 twist might be a bit slower than a 14 twist, but the amount of velocity loss will be hard to measure because it is well within the discrepancy of two otherwise 'identical' barrels. The artillery guys say that doubling the twist yields a 1% difference in either pressure or velocity.

 

[Why1504]

Thank You.

Question, when is too much twist, too much? When does more twist become a disadvantage?

 

[Graham]

Am I wrong for looking at a Rem 700 SPS tact.?

Thank You.

Question, when is too much twist, too much? When does more twist become a disadvantage?

I like more twist than I think I am ever going to need. And note that my remarks are not intended to be theoretical, but prefaced on the assumption that there is a practical limit to fast barrel twist in most available barrels, that being about 1 in 7.

I see people here sometimes warning against 'over stabilizing' a bullet with 'too much' twist. Again, a bullet is either stable when it leaves the muzzle, or it isn't.

A very fast twist might foul the bore more, or faster, and the bullet jacket might get more strain on it making the barrel less forgiving of poor quality bullets, and in absolute terms more spin drift will result.

But practical precision rifle shooting is about knowing what matters and what doesn't. We need a twist fast enough to stabilize the longest bullet in the caliber we shoot, at the coldest temps we shoot it in.

If you were a Benchrester you would want a slow enough twist to shoot a short bullet at short ranges (or a short bullet at long ranges) as accurately as possible, but that's not our goal.

 

[winxp_man]

You had better take a 1:10 over a 1:12 if you get the chance OP but thats my opinion.

I seen a SPS Tactical 1:12 with 44gr of Reloader 15 behind a 175gr SMK shoot 100+fps slower than a M24 1:10 with the same load but only 42.5gr R15.

And were both barrels the same lenght? 20"s is what the SPS Tac runs. If you mean M24 as in military then thats a 24" barrel, and yes a longer barrel yields higher velocity.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Nor does the M24 have a 1:10 twist... a 1:11.25 maybe???

Maybe the poster just saw another 308 that shot faster, in that case I have too... my 26" R700 varmint shoots ~100fps faster with the same load (it’s a 1:12), the rock creek barreled action is 21.75" (with 1:11.25) and it is also 100fps faster with the same load, then there is the 18" AAC replacement barrel (1:8) is too close to tell and last a 26" Winchester stealth (1:12) is about 130fps faster with the same load as my 20" (1:12) R700 tactical... Dang... I might have a fondness for things 308.

How does the USMC's M40 work with a 1:12 twist barrel and 175's I wonder???

 

[RobertB]

I have a factory sps tactical 20" and a custom 20" bartlien bbl. The bartlien is atleast 50 fps faster with any ammo than the sps. I've had great luck with the sps when I shoot it btw. I put it in a manners folder first and the accuracy got better, maybe not better but more consistent. Now it sits in a H-S and it still shoots great. We might shoot it tomorrow when we break several rifles out and I'll compare it to the 7-8 customs that will be beside it.

 

[6xcKY]

Im sorry, I meant it was a M24 style contour, but it was cut to 22", and it very well could have been 11.25, but still yet the velocity from it was around 2650-2675 with 43.5gr while the SPS struggled to make 2550 with the same bullet and 44gr.

Don't get me wrong, starting with a SPS Tactical if it is a have to, then you have to, and it will perform fine for the purposes it was made, but as I stated above you could have much better options and way better performance out something mildly "custom" for not much more than you will spend on a SPS Tactical and be able to do much more.

My SPS was a one holer at both 100-200 yards, and even at 300 it was close to being ragged holes, but dont expect it to compete at LR with better options because it will just be disappointing...