300wsm OCW results

[graewolf]

Just got done this morning with testing a new load for my Savage 300wsm. This is my first time working up hand loads AND first time using the OCW method and would like some input. I shot this at 100m, off a table using bipod and rear bag. I shot seven 5 shot groups, started with 57gr RL17 with 0.5gr increments - to 60gr (which shows very slight signs of pressure). Used twice fired brass, Win LRM primers, and 175gr Berger VLDs - COAL 3.065, seated 0.035 off the lands.

My question is....58gr seems to be the best node off this target, correct? 57gr was decent, but I dont think the "flyer" was me, and the 60gr target was great up to the very last shot which was a called flyer before I even looked back at that target - BUT, I'd rather load conservatively and not shoot near max pressure loads.

Again, I am new to hand loading for precision - these are the first loads I have worked up, and after reading about ladder and OCW methods, I chose to use the OCW method. I have alot to learn and I am glad I have finally got around to starting. I need to read and learn more about brass sizing, neck turning, seating depth, runout, etc., etc. I currently using a Redding FL sizing die in an RCBS RS2 press, RCBS 5-0-5 balance scale and Wilson bullet seater with arbor press.

Any comments, suggestions, and pointers would be MUCH appreciated.

 

[Twoboxer]

58gr is your best group, but that's not necessarily what you are always looking for in OCW work. You are looking for a charge range with similar POIs.

57.5 and 58.0 have similar POI. Taking an average and adding 3%, the next OCW node would be expected around 59.5gr . . . where you also have an excellent group. Perhaps more important, 59.0 and 60.0 show similar POIs.

FWIW, I'd work between 57.5 and 58.1 . . . and around 59.5 . . . in smaller increments trying to find the point at which it doesn't matter if you are a couple 10ths off either way, the charges will all find the ~same POI. I'm guessing maybe 57.8 and . . . well maybe 59.5 if the called flier is "real".

 

[graewolf]

OK, yeah I knew there was more to the OCW method than finding best group. I have had these loaded for a few days and just wanted to get the shooting done then interpret results. I do remember reading about finding similar POI's but all these appeared to be very close in POI but when you point out the one's you refered to I see those were slightly higher (like 59 and 60gr seemed slightly higher POI than 57.5 and 58). They just arent as obvious as some of the examples I recall reading.

I was double checking POIs with a spotting scope even though I could see them well with my scope on 12x, and after 14 shots I remembered I can take pics through my spotting scope. So, from shot 14 on, I have a pic of each hit landed. I cropped them all and its pretty interesting to flip through them in sequence.

I will probably work the next loads btw 57.5 and 58.1 like you said, probably in 0.1gr increments....then work on seating depth from there. I'm not trying to squeak all the velocity I can out of this rifle so I will not likely work the node around 59-60. I just want consistency at the moment. And, on that note...I'll be getting with a local guy about some reloading tips. I know there is some knowledge I am missing out on still....I just hope there isnt anything I am doing that is wrong or unsafe, but I will get with this guy before reloading more for the next OCW loads. I do know the side of this 30" Hart barrel on this rifle is engraved "300 WSM .332" - which I have been told is the specific neck size. I know I need to trim the neck, but how do I size the neck diameter to .332? I need to learn about reading the brass more too (after seeing the recent case head seperation thread here).

Thank you for the input....I would not have noted that those POI's were different. They are all high and L, just outside the grey to me. But the next OCW loads are meant to show the "width" of this particualr node, if I am understanding correctly? Where the POI settles in over a certain load range?

 

[Dan Newberry]

58 grains looks pretty good. With RL17 I'd be leery of running too close to max, it's been known to get weird on odd days (pressure signs).

The low flyer at 58.5 might be shooter induced--as it's not reaching for a new POI--the 59.0 POI is right where the POI for the 58 grain charge is.

See if 58.0 grains is repeatable...

I haven't checked the data, so if 60 grains is well enough below max, you might check that area again... or maybe 59.8 grains would look about right.

Dan

 

[Dan Newberry]

Well... a quick look at Alliant's page would show you well under max... maybe too far under max!

However... accuracy seems to be there. If the velocity is good, and you're above starting load point (a moving target, it seems, as Alliant's page only shows a max here)... then I'd say stick with what is working.

Dan

 

[lte82]

A standard piece of wsm brass will probably have a .015 - .016 neck wall thickness from the factory. This means a standard loaded round will have a neck diameter of .308 + .016 + .016 = .340. In a field rifle you probably want .002 neck clearance, so minimum chamber neck diameter should be .344. I think saami spec is around .345 just fyi.

So for a chamber with a .332 neck, working backwards, you will want a neck wall thickness of .010. This means you need to turn about .005-.006 off of neck of the brass.

Also something to think about, there is no way a standard unturned brass will fit in that chamber. A standard loaded round will be .340, which .008 greater than your chamber diameter. So either your brass is already turned, or your chambers neck diameter is in reality not .332.

 

[graewolf]

Well... a quick look at Alliant's page would show you well under max... maybe too far under max!

However... accuracy seems to be there. If the velocity is good, and you're above starting load point (a moving target, it seems, as Alliant's page only shows a max here)... then I'd say stick with what is working.

Dan

Well, something to keep in mind is this is a 30" barrel. Their max load is probably not for this long a tube I wouldnt think. At 60gr, I am seeing brass flow around the ejector - the "smiley" - so, I think I'll keep it conservative and do some loads around the 58gr node next. But like I said, I need to invest in a little more knowledge in hand loading for performance and precision. The more I read, the more I find things I'm not doing or need to do soon (like before my next load work up).

Your article is what made me decide to do the OCW method for my load development. So I greatly appreciate the input! I still need to go back and carefully reread it again....like I mentioned, I am pretty new to precision handloading and load development. I'm still soaking up info. lol

 

[graewolf]

A standard piece of wsm brass will probably have a .015 - .016 neck wall thickness from the factory. This means a standard loaded round will have a neck diameter of .308 + .016 + .016 = .340. In a field rifle you probably want .002 neck clearance, so minimum chamber neck diameter should be .344. I think saami spec is around .345 just fyi.

So for a chamber with a .332 neck, working backwards, you will want a neck wall thickness of .010. This means you need to turn about .005-.006 off of neck of the brass.

Also something to think about, there is no way a standard unturned brass will fit in that chamber. A standard loaded round will be .340, which .008 greater than your chamber diameter. So either your brass is already turned, or your chambers neck diameter is in reality not .332.

Why would someone want a chamber that would require turning that much brass off the neck - especially is standard neck diameter is .340? I do believe the brass I have currently IS turned. It came with the rifle when I bought it. I should buy some factory rounds and see if they wont chamber....or just some standard brass. I could always turn the neck of standard brass if it indeed does not fit rather than pulling apart factory loads.

Why would one want a thinner neck wall for this round?

Oh and @ Dan....
I have a magnetospeed chrono so TBH I havent chrono'd these specific loads yet. I didnt want the POI shift that comes with the magnetospeed to in any way alter my results. I figured I would get the data I needed about the nodes and go from there. I can load an extra round for each charge and chrono that one individually when I do my next test. I had loaded some 61gr loads a while back before I did these and IIRC I was seeing right around +/-3050fps. I'm at work right now or I would go look at the MS chrono archived results and tell you for sure.

 

[Twoboxer]

. . . I will probably work the next loads btw 57.5 and 58.1 like you said, probably in 0.1gr increments....then work on seating depth from there. . . . But the next OCW loads are meant to show the "width" of this particualr node, if I am understanding correctly? Where the POI settles in over a certain load range?

For me, the next step would be to see if the results are repeatable, and to give me some info if for some reason they aren't lol. I wouldn't use 0.1gr increments, I'd overkill it with 4 charges 0.2gr apart. Can't help on the neck issue.

 

[Dan Newberry]

60 grains is showing the ejector mark... that's interesting. Sounds like you better stay where you are, and not go any higher.

Alliant shows 66 grains as max with 180's--in FEDERAL brass, which is very thick and shows pressure a lot sooner than other makes. Here's the link: Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

Just another reason I call RL17 one of the new generation of "hold my beer and watch this powders."

 

[graewolf]

Yeah and they expect velocities of 3082 with that. I loaded up some 61gr and 62gr loads and with 61gr I got up to 3071fps and the 62gr up to 3086. Keep in mind, these are going down a 30" tube. I have that Alliant book and I think thats why I chrono'd a few loads though this at 61, 62gr loads. SD was high too (16 and 20 respectively) but I am not sure that didnt have more to do with my reloading or the powder.

OK, so I am hearing that you think RL17 is pretty inconsistent. What powder would you suggest for the 300wsm? As it seems I am going to have to start all over anyway. This Win brass is probably at least on it 3 or 4th firing, and I have been reading that is about the extent of Win brass life. So, if I am going to change powders, might as well change brass - might try to get some new Norma brass, since Lapua still doesnt make 300wsm brass and start this all over again.

At a MINIMUM, I need to start turning necks, trimming cases, weighing cases, check seating depth with a comparator - not by bullet tip....and a few other case prep things. (shoulder bump, concentricity, etc. etc.)

 

[Ridgerunner665]

About those ejector marks...

Are you positive there is no lube in the chamber or on the brass...that will cause ejector marks from the case head slamming into the bolt face so hard during firing.

The lube doesn't let the brass grip the chamber walls like it should...it slides instead of stretching.

Just thought I'd throw it out there...

And give H4350 a try if the RL17 doesn't work out.

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[Dan Newberry]

I'm not saying you necessarily should give up on the RL17--since you already have it on hand. That powder was supposedly tailored for the short mags... and it does follow 4350 charge recommendations up to a point (where 4350 maxes, that is)...

If you can shoot the better charges at longer range, see how the vertical spread looks. Sometimes the chronograph data doesn't tell the whole story, and sometimes it can be downright misleading.

I would second the idea of H4350 if you can't make this powder work for you. But H4350 isn't too easy to find these days...

Dan

 

[graewolf]

About those ejector marks...

Are you positive there is no lube in the chamber or on the brass...that will cause ejector marks from the case head slamming into the bolt face so hard during during.

The lube doesn't let the brass grip the chamber walls like it should...it slides instead of stretching.

Ya know, come to think of it I didnt necessarily wipe off the cases after loading so I cannot say with certainty that there is no lube on them.

I do have about 6 cases still I could load up....maybe I will use that 58gr load and take it out to 400m and see what it does a little further out than 100.

I have plenty of RL17 left. I guess I'll use it up then try H4350. I was just getting the idea it was too inconsistent to trust.

Very grateful for all the help, info and enlightenment!! thanks!

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I rinse my cases in acetone after sizing....leaves them completely clean and very "grippy".

It evaporates completely in just a few minutes....residue free.

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[graewolf]

I'll be sure to add that into my process. I very well could be getting extractor marks due to that. I double checked the primers on the fired casings and they all look about the same - the 60gr loaded primers dont look any more flat than the 57gr loads. And thinking back, there werent any of those 35 rounds fired that the bolt was hard to lift either.

SO....that node at 60gr may something I'll think about working with again too.

Aside from all that, I still want to move up to some Norma brass. I've done some searches for it, but is there a reliable, resonably priced place to get Norma brass from that you guys use? I fear this Win brass wont have much more life and I trust MY own brass inspection skills even less to even know. It was AT LEAST once fired when I got it. So, I think if I'm getting serious about this, I should start with new brass anyway. I sure do wish Lapua made 300wsm brass! I've not heard anything bad, ever, about Lapua brass.....and I hear alot of good things re: Norma brass but there are a few folks who absolutely do not like it ("too soft").

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Norma is pretty good brass...not as tough as Lapua...but nothing is.

Something to consider...you might be served just as well by buying some factory Winchester ammo...Winchester brass is pretty hard... buying the ammo would be a little more expensive, but might also be a lot easier to find...I have also heard that Norma brass is a little soft, but I have never used it myself.

That said...I buy most of my reloading supplies from MidwayUSA...2nd choice is Brownells, 3rd choice is Cabelas.

I used to get it all from Wideners...until they stopped the walk in pickups...I live near them, I sure as hell ain't paying shipping for them to send it 20 miles.

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[Ridgerunner665]

There is also Nosler...they have 300 WSM brass...Its made for them by Norma.

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[graewolf]

I found this the other day and came across it again. If they have it in stock, its the cheapest Norma 300wsm brass I've seen. $72 for 50.

Magnum Sports*::*Reloading*::*Unprimed Cases*::*Norma Premium Unprimed Rifle Brass 50 Bag

 

[graewolf]

Well its all gonna have to wait....gonna be in the 30-40's by tomorrow afternoon. ugh