I am getting into reloading and have several brands of factory 223 ammo brass. I was wondering if any of it was worth time to reload for quality precision ammo. The list includes XM193, PPU headstamp, FC 13 headstamp (Fusion ammo), WCC 13 headstamp (Winch White Box), FC headstamp (American Eagle ammo). I also some Hornady, R P headstamp (Rem) & Winch which I assume all 3 of these are fine? Anybody willing to help a newbie know which brass worth messing with. BTW I am ordering some new, unprimed Lapua to load also. Thanks.
- Thread starter bbowles
- Start date
All are good for reloading, just separate by brand for load development then shoot the hell out of it.Dont bother reloading any steel cases but the rest are GTG
Some good reading here on that cartridge (link),http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/plus go to the reloading section and look up load development by elfster.
Some good reading here on that cartridge (link),http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/plus go to the reloading section and look up load development by elfster.
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The only question I'd have is how much of each brass do you have. For example if you have 20 or 30 of each that could give you problems with keeping one consistant load because of varying case volumes. I load a lot of the WCC and haven't had problems with shooting two different years of brass in the same match. I'm not sure if your XM193 is Lake City or not but it is probably ok, Lake City is a good case. I have not loaded PPU.
My standard load is a 77 SMK, 24 grains Varget, and WCC brass with a CCI 400 primer. This is shot in two RRA NMA2s across the course. I have loaded some other cases (LC, FC, PMC)with 52 SMKs with good results on 100 yard reduced targets.
I haven't shot or loaded Lapua but have been told it is over kill for most AR's.
My standard load is a 77 SMK, 24 grains Varget, and WCC brass with a CCI 400 primer. This is shot in two RRA NMA2s across the course. I have loaded some other cases (LC, FC, PMC)with 52 SMKs with good results on 100 yard reduced targets.
I haven't shot or loaded Lapua but have been told it is over kill for most AR's.
All good.
For my ARs I use mixed headstamp for shooting 3 gun on the hoser stages where my shots will be fast and close however for the long range portion of the match I use Winchester brass that is range pickup and 69 gr SMKs and they will shoot just shy of 1/2 moa at 200 yards. My ammo for most stages is mixed headstamp brass, 25 gr of surplus powder and the cheapest 55 gr fmj that I can buy and they won't stay in 3 moa at 100 yards but that's close enough for the girls I go with 
For every brand of brass you are considering loading take 10 pieces of brass, 20 is even better.
Weigh each case on a digital scale. Then fill to the top of the neck with water and weigh the water weight each case holds.
Look for the smallest variation in water weight and you should be able to make decent ammo with those cases.
Weigh each case on a digital scale. Then fill to the top of the neck with water and weigh the water weight each case holds.
Look for the smallest variation in water weight and you should be able to make decent ammo with those cases.
Im along the lines of kansas. For plinking or just for fun shooting i just load mixed headstamp. i get good enough results for me. 24.5gr of WC844 with a hornady 55gr fmj shoots 1 MOA (though usually ends up as 1.5MOA due to me) using mixed HS. Even using 77gr SMK "seconds" with 22.5gr of WC844 and mixed HS i was able to shoot MOA (only fired 40 rounds for load development so im sure it can do better). Honestly that is good enough for me at this point. If i were the OP i would use the lapua as the go to, "match" brass for when wanting to shoot the smallest groups. otherwise just load the rest as is. Or pick another HS or two to make specific loads for. But no way would i do it for every single head stamp. Especially if just using the cheap 55gr FMJ type bullets.
But that is my opinion.
But that is my opinion.
This is what you do for a high precision benchrest bolt gun,,for a bone stock AR, it's overkill big time, and you won't see much difference. Sort by headstamp, trim to length,
load and go. watch for overpressure. start with starting loads and "work up". read everything you can from books, not the errornet and then research some more. A stock AR-15 is not a "benchrest" rifle.!!!
Sierra has a lot of good data for the AR-15, you won't go wrong there.
You will probably end up with better than "decent" ammunition.
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All are good to reload. I have had some Federal and PMC brass with loose primer pockets though. Literally put the primer in and it falls out! Just a few here and there.
First of all why are you assuming that he is talking about an AR-15 when there is no mention of what type of rifle he's using.
The OP is talking about ordering new Lapua brass which brings me to the assumption that he wants the best accuracy possible.
Although it is true that it is less of a concern for an AR-15 there is no reason for him not to use the best components he has on hand.
I have a pair of AR-15's that can certainly tell the difference between average and premium hand loaded ammo.
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Because he said he would be reloading for his ar-15 in the second post of this thread?
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Thanks, didn't see that.
Zing!
M
milo 2.0
Guest
If it was my brass I wouldn't worry about case capacity and such, just mix it and load, not to max of coarse but find a nice suited to your needs load. Be it plinking, rapid fire fun, or even longer range targets, you'll be surprised how uniform most of it will be. If you need to run a test, just pull 3-5 of each headstamp out and shoot it at 200 yards, if one brand really gets out of whack, cull the rest from your stash and shoot it separate.
I have a batch of mixed head stamp stuff, over 7K pieces, all brands, I've never remotely noticed any variance.
I'd revisit the buying of Lapua brass for ar usage, unless your competing, you'll never get your return from it.
I wouldn't and don't run Lapua in my AR; too much risk for losing it and RP brass (if buying new) does very well for half the price. LC is great too, especially if you can buy it without crimp.
Also: 24.0gr Varget with a 75/77 is money, as is 23.5 8208XBR....
most likely not. Since its an AR you would need a pretty high end custom one (IMO) to really need "match grade" brass. What you have now will work just fine. And if you get consistent and need the little extra accuracy then try out the lapua.
Bullet choice, powder type and charge, and OAL will most likely give more improvements over using Lapua brass.
Maybe so but I load my lapua for a bolt action and after it starts to show signs of wear I then give it one last firing in my AR. I then don't bother to pick up the brass. By the time it gets "flung" by my AR it's given me anywhere from 10-15 reloads for my Bolt gun.
Unless you have large quantities of some of them I'd use the mixed HS brass for making up plinking ammo. Also you have to buy a primer pocket swager for the military crimped brass which is a extra step in the brass processing.
For true precision the new Lapua brass is the best solution by far.
For true precision the new Lapua brass is the best solution by far.
I'm with Milo here, just trim it, inspect it and shoot it. I have several K of mixed up stuff for the AR and it shoots about 3/4 inch in my bolt gun. My carefully prepped Winchester and Lapua will only do slightly better. That was a real surprise! Just don't load your mixed stuff to max. Personally, I would hate to run my Lapua thru an AR. It just cost too much, and you loose some from time to time. If your AR is a match rifle and your are competing, maybe then, but probably not. Lightman
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Nothing on you here DS. But people are probably buying your "once fired" range pickup from some enterprising douche!
I used to walk away from my brass also, and laughing at the dipshit that picked it up. But now, I recycle, because I got some young boys into shooting 22's, and the used brass has virtually paid for their ammo. $2.67 a pound last time at pacific Steel.
Not really related, but the economic lesson for the boys is good stuff, one time the older boy wanted to pocket the coin for a toy, whew, pissy fit city, luckily Dad was with to diffuse the situation!!!
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What I have learned after chasing a really accurate 77gr load is to relegate the mix headstamp for plinking and loading on the Dillon. LC brass is cheap enough that I buy a couple K of it and load that for my higher precision 77gr loads or hunting loads. It cut my groups in half and I don't have to worry about getting a hot round. The LC brass does come with a crimp in it unless you buy from a place that already processes which will cost you more. After you buy a couple K of processed LC you voulda bought a Dillon super swager.
It really boils down to exactly what amount of accuracy you expect. If youre looking for moa then you can probably get away with mix hs, but beware that you really shouldn't push the max loads due to varying case volume. For me, I want my 77gr load as fast as it can be and as accurate as it can be so I only use one headstamp for that load. My 55gr plinking load is 25gr of WC844(24.5 was accurateish as well) and my 77gr load is 23.8gr of varget. As usual work up your load but both of those loads are fairly standard.
It really boils down to exactly what amount of accuracy you expect. If youre looking for moa then you can probably get away with mix hs, but beware that you really shouldn't push the max loads due to varying case volume. For me, I want my 77gr load as fast as it can be and as accurate as it can be so I only use one headstamp for that load. My 55gr plinking load is 25gr of WC844(24.5 was accurateish as well) and my 77gr load is 23.8gr of varget. As usual work up your load but both of those loads are fairly standard.
I can't tell you which by name, but my friend almost exclusively uses range pick ups and loads on my equipment. You'll know which needs to be uncrimped when you deprime it.... There is a definite difference in effort needed to get those primers out.
That being said: After he got a bit lazy and ruined a bunch of primers, hes just decided that its better to treat them all as uncrimped the first time around.
One place I used to shoot was a gravel pit. Some toothless, mouth breathing, locals, used to come in as soon as they heard gunfire and start picking up the brass as soon as it hit the ground. Had to finally tell them to keep their effing distance. Some would even go downrange and pick copper jackets out of the sand/gravel backstop ----while people were still shooting.
Needless to say, the place was finally closed down for of all things "Safety Considerations"
M
milo 2.0
Guest
I t's been so long since I've had to mess with crimps, but maybe the xm193, and the ppu are crimped. May be wrong, but you're probably safe with the other stuff, it all sounds civilian to be.
Actually, many of the others could be crimped as well. Even the WCC that was sold as civilian ammo. A lot of times primed and crimped brass, if there has been a large overrun, can be re-channeled from military production to civilian production. I've found lots of WCC and FC headstamped brass to be crimped.
If you shoot .223 one of the most useful tools to have is a good Swaging tool. I have a Dillon which is excellent but recently RCBS introduced a similar one that is head and shoulders above their old Single Stage Press "Kit". Not really a matter of "If" you'll need or want one of these but a matter of "When". Lots of shooters will just segregate their crimped brass until they have a large quantity, shooting the non-crimped, and then purchasing a swaging tool.
I have found that processing lots of brass is best done while watching TV.
But in general I have given up on reloading.
I still do a lot of handloading.
But It takes me time to:
Sort the brass.
De prime the brass.
Tumble the brass.
Dry the brass.
Lube the brass.
Re size the brass.
But if everyone is out of stock on .223 brass, maybe you will HAVE to reload your brass.
It will be quite sometime before you learn enough about reloading and load development (and maybe shooting) to tell the difference between any of it. Just don't try to load on the ragged edge of a KABOOM and have fun learning and shooting.
Another dumb question: what causes the dent on the body of the case just behind the shoulder? Assume from the angled piece on rifle that angles cases away as it is extracted? If so will that hurt anything to reload case again? And how can I make that stop denting? Thanks for putting up with a newbie to ar's dumb questions.
That "angled piece" was put there to keep the ejected brass out of a left handed shooter's right eye. You're right on that it is the cause of the dent below the shoulder. Don't worry too much. If it's merely a dent, and there's no cut metal involved, it will mostly disappear when you full length size the case and the rest of the way when fired.
This "denting" can vary from load to load but for the most part it's caused by a nice stiff ejector spring. On my AR's I just live with it as it doesn't cause me any problems.
You can put a piece of velcro on the deflector and you wont have that problem anymore.
The dent is caused by your AR being over gassed. This causes high extraction speeds and smacks the case out too hard. There are things that can be done to compensate such as an H2 or H3 buffer.
What kind of AR do you have?
KUSA, I have heard stuff about overgassed and high port pressures but have no idea what either mean. I have a DD v5 mid length gas system from the specs. Not sure what the different gas systems means but I am listening to anyone who can educate me. Thanks.
Has nothing to do with being over gassed...... Its just the brass hitting the deflector... Put a small pc of velcro on the deflector fuzzy side and no more dent. Check out page 4 of this link
http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]
http://www.snipershide.com/[email protected]
Your particular rifle is probably not over-gassed. Over gassing CAN however produce what you are talking about. Some of my hand-loads eject perfectly at the 4 and 5 o-clock position. Not because that's how I intended them to be, but because it's a softer load that also happens to be the most accurate.
Several things can be done. Velcro on the case deflector is one thing. A heavier buffer can also help.
I am wrong in this case then. If it's a DD it is not overgassed.
OP,
My precision 18" SS Krieger/CLE 1x7.7 AR15/M16 rifle is capable of 0.4-0.5 MOA with 5.56MM 77gr. SMK & 80gr. VLD loads in trigger pull conditions off a proper benchrest as long as I do my part. So I normally use virgin/never-primed LC brass for all hunting loads, load development, & short range loads. But for 80gr. VLD over-mag-length accuracy LR loads I use LAPUA brass. My reasoning is pretty simple: I don't feel I would gain anything with my rifle by neck turning LAPUA brass so no neck turning necessary IMO. And the consistency of LAPUA .223 brass helps get rid of the highs & lows in MV that show up as vertical stringing in LR groups. Match .223 LAPUA casing don't have nearly the weight variation I see in LC or WCC brass. Just so I could put a number on how consistent the .223 LAPUA brass actually was, I sat down and weighed (500) virgin MATCH .223 LAPUA casings. Total weight range was 93.5gr. to 94.2gr. indicating weight varied by a maximum of 0.7gr over all (500) with a little over (400) varying by only 0.4gr or less. The LAPUA .223 brass is also just a little bit thicker in the neck area which some shooters, myself included, feel gives more uniform neck tension. To put weight variation into perspective, I would fully expect (100) virgin LC casings weight to vary by 2.5gr. to 3.0gr., possibly a bit more with one or two casings which would be culled. The only chart I have seen on .223/5.56MM case capacity (below) indicates that, with very few exceptions, the normally seen .223/5.56MM casings just don't vary much. So many handloaders & commercial reloaders do not even sort brass by headstamp. I definitely think sorting by headstamp is a good idea for even my short range loads if for no other reason than shooter confidence. FWIW.
Edit: I should have mentioned that I kept the MATCH .223 LAPUA brass separated in (4) 0.1gr weight variation lots of 100 and used the "wide" 0.7gr. max. variation lot of 100 for load development. I could see no difference in my rifle as to what lot of LAPUA brass I used. So you can pretty well guess what happened with all that laboriously sorted-to-0.1gr LAPUA .223 brass once it was initially fired. If I were shooting a tight chamber BR rifle, yes I would have kept it separated in the 0.1gr. variation lots and then sorted by actual internal volume which is what you are really trying to accomplish. But not for use in a 0.4-0.5 MOA capable AR15/M16 IMO.
Some one put a lot of work into making this chart but I do not know who gets credit. IMO, similar charts in 308/30-06/300WM/etc. would be even more useful to handloaders.
My precision 18" SS Krieger/CLE 1x7.7 AR15/M16 rifle is capable of 0.4-0.5 MOA with 5.56MM 77gr. SMK & 80gr. VLD loads in trigger pull conditions off a proper benchrest as long as I do my part. So I normally use virgin/never-primed LC brass for all hunting loads, load development, & short range loads. But for 80gr. VLD over-mag-length accuracy LR loads I use LAPUA brass. My reasoning is pretty simple: I don't feel I would gain anything with my rifle by neck turning LAPUA brass so no neck turning necessary IMO. And the consistency of LAPUA .223 brass helps get rid of the highs & lows in MV that show up as vertical stringing in LR groups. Match .223 LAPUA casing don't have nearly the weight variation I see in LC or WCC brass. Just so I could put a number on how consistent the .223 LAPUA brass actually was, I sat down and weighed (500) virgin MATCH .223 LAPUA casings. Total weight range was 93.5gr. to 94.2gr. indicating weight varied by a maximum of 0.7gr over all (500) with a little over (400) varying by only 0.4gr or less. The LAPUA .223 brass is also just a little bit thicker in the neck area which some shooters, myself included, feel gives more uniform neck tension. To put weight variation into perspective, I would fully expect (100) virgin LC casings weight to vary by 2.5gr. to 3.0gr., possibly a bit more with one or two casings which would be culled. The only chart I have seen on .223/5.56MM case capacity (below) indicates that, with very few exceptions, the normally seen .223/5.56MM casings just don't vary much. So many handloaders & commercial reloaders do not even sort brass by headstamp. I definitely think sorting by headstamp is a good idea for even my short range loads if for no other reason than shooter confidence. FWIW.
Edit: I should have mentioned that I kept the MATCH .223 LAPUA brass separated in (4) 0.1gr weight variation lots of 100 and used the "wide" 0.7gr. max. variation lot of 100 for load development. I could see no difference in my rifle as to what lot of LAPUA brass I used. So you can pretty well guess what happened with all that laboriously sorted-to-0.1gr LAPUA .223 brass once it was initially fired. If I were shooting a tight chamber BR rifle, yes I would have kept it separated in the 0.1gr. variation lots and then sorted by actual internal volume which is what you are really trying to accomplish. But not for use in a 0.4-0.5 MOA capable AR15/M16 IMO.
Some one put a lot of work into making this chart but I do not know who gets credit. IMO, similar charts in 308/30-06/300WM/etc. would be even more useful to handloaders.
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OP,
My precision 18" SS Krieger/CLE 1x7.7 AR15/M16 rifle is capable of 0.4-0.5 MOA with 5.56MM 77gr. SMK & 80gr. VLD loads in trigger pull conditions off a proper benchrest as long as I do my part. So I normally use virgin/never-primed LC brass for all hunting loads, load development, & short range loads. But for 80gr. VLD over-mag-length accuracy LR loads I use LAPUA brass. My reasoning is pretty simple: I don't feel I would gain anything with my rifle by neck turning LAPUA brass so no neck turning necessary IMO. And the consistency of LAPUA .223 brass helps get rid of the highs & lows in MV that show up as vertical stringing in LR groups. Match .223 LAPUA casing don't have nearly the weight variation I see in LC or WCC brass. Just so I could put a number on how consistent the .223 LAPUA brass actually was, I sat down and weighed (500) virgin MATCH .223 LAPUA casings. Total weight range was 93.5gr. to 94.2gr. indicating weight varied by a maximum of 0.7gr over all (500) with a little over (400) varying by only 0.4gr or less. The LAPUA .223 brass is also just a little bit thicker in the neck area which some shooters, myself included, feel gives more uniform neck tension. To put weight variation into perspective, I would fully expect (100) virgin LC casings weight to vary by 2.5gr. to 3.0gr., possibly a bit more with one or two casings which would be culled. The only chart I have seen on .223/5.56MM case capacity (below) indicates that, with very few exceptions, the normally seen .223/5.56MM casings just don't vary much. So many handloaders & commercial reloaders do not even sort brass by headstamp. I definitely think sorting by headstamp is a good idea for even my short range loads if for no other reason than shooter confidence. FWIW.
Edit: I should have mentioned that I kept the MATCH .223 LAPUA brass separated in (4) 0.1gr weight variation lots of 100 and used the "wide" 0.7gr. max. variation lot of 100 for load development. I could see no difference in my rifle as to what lot of LAPUA brass I used. So you can pretty well guess what happened with all that laboriously sorted-to-0.1gr LAPUA .223 brass once it was initially fired. If I were shooting a tight chamber BR rifle, yes I would have kept it separated in the 0.1gr. variation lots and then sorted by actual internal volume which is what you are really trying to accomplish. But not for use in a 0.4-0.5 MOA capable AR15/M16 IMO.
Some one put a lot of work into making this chart but I do not know who gets credit. IMO, similar charts in 308/30-06/300WM/etc. would be even more useful to handloaders.
Thanks for sharing!
To answer your question ,NO- 223 brass should never be reloaded. It should be boxed up and sent to my house ASP.I will do you a favor and pay the shipping but you will owe me a beer !!!! ;-)
All three are fine, decrimping is no prob either, if you plan on loading a lot get the proper equipment eventually, in the mean time save your brass for when the time comes.
I wouldn't waste your time with those little shells,....just send them to me, I'll get rid of them for you.
(Let's see if this old trick works guys...he, he, he)
SD
(Let's see if this old trick works guys...he, he, he)
SD
deprime them forst then look for a crimp, remember there a few types of crimps, grab a few of each and try to prime them after you deprime them this will tell you if they are crimped. Normally i there is no nato headstamp there wont be a crimp.
You should reference your reloading book before you ask basic questions here, I think you are making people nervous on your little venture here. Reloading can be very dangerous, read and re read your manuals then come back and ask questions.
