• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Chronographs usefulness in Reloading

[email protected]

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 11, 2012
711
3
31
Hello Again,

I just bough an Oehler 35P, and am going to be doing loadwork up for my new GAP NT, and dana english 300 WM. I was planning on trying something ive never done before, OBT using QL and my new chrono. Dana said thats what he uses and works, and i've heard it works for many others too.

Any suggestions or tips you have for me?

My plan was:

1st:
put as much info as I can into QL, take two of each rounds with varying powders to the range (find MAX) & record velocities, come back and insert my H2O grns in QL, and adjust the BA to try and match the velocities of my results.

2nd:
Start with 190 gr berger .005" off lands, enter into QL, find powder combo (h1000) charge that gets me dead on OBT, than load up .000", .005" off, .01 off, .015" off and shoot groups at 600 yards (Audette ladder), record velocities, ES, SD, confirm with QL, than move onto powder.

Sounds about right?
 
So unless Quickload does it, I personally have no means to measure it. I doubt my buddy Bob standing beside me with a stopwatch will reveal much.
Try 6mm Br, might be some heads on there that are in tune with this.
 
Try a regular ladder and the QL way then let us know how close they correlated. Just curious.

Also doing it this way will give you two sets if data to find the middle node.

In the past I'd do a double ladder and when the bolt got sticky I'd stop and pull the bullets on the hotter charges when I got home. The high node has usually been just below max by 2% or so of when the bolt first got sticky. I think from now on I'll just do ladders in .1 grain increments even though it's a PITA. I've done it twice now recently and doing so made finding the node both easy and obvious.

Wind affects vertical sometimes so pick a clam morning. Also let the barrel cool between shots.
 
Try a regular ladder and the QL way then let us know how close they correlated. Just curious.

Also doing it this way will give you two sets if data to find the middle node.

In the past I'd do a double ladder and when the bolt got sticky I'd stop and pull the bullets on the hotter charges when I got home. The high node has usually been just below max by 2% or so of when the bolt first got sticky. I think from now on I'll just do ladders in .1 grain increments even though it's a PITA. I've done it twice now recently and doing so made finding the node both easy and obvious.

Wind affects vertical sometimes so pick a clam morning. Also let the barrel cool between shots.

Will do
 
You'd have stood a better chance of attracting someone to your thread to discuss OBT if you had mentioned OBT in the title.

The best place to start is by reading Chris Long's online synopses of OBT (here and here). Chris knows a thing or three about OBT because he created it.

Here is a post I wrote a couple of years ago in SH about how I run OBT. In that post I link to three online articles on OBT written by David Wilson. I call David something of an OBT lieutenant to Chris Long. His notes are of a more practical nature than Chris's, and were key to me getting my feet under me, OBT-wise. Unfortunately, David no longer maintains his old web site, so the links in that post are broken, but those pages still are available in through the Wayback Machine. You can find them here and here and here (a PDF). I would highly recommend anyone interested in OBT archive those pages before they're gone for good.

Chris once posted his parameters for tweaking QL for OBT in the now-defunct WSSM forums. I transcribed his notes in another SH post, here.

Those two posts should give you a running start. One development since the both of them, one of the guys at the old wssmforums.com gave me a formula he swiped from somebody else (maybe Chris, I dunno) for calculating the start pressure to use in QL. The formula is:
( 1420 x bearing surface length ) + 2860. Throw in an additional 600 psi for 215M primers (which probably also goes for any magnum primer).
The bearing surface length is expressed in inches, i.e., 1" = 1.0; 1 1/8"= 1.125.

The guy who gave the start pressure formula used OBT to work up loads for his 243WSSM and his 6mm Dasher, both of which "shoot zeros" (< 0.10 MoA), which speaks to his expertise, both as a hand loader, and with OBT.

OBT is not complicated, once you understand what to change, and when. It is a scientific method for calculating a muzzle velocity where an accuracy node should exist. The muzzle velocity is the shooter's shortcut to measuring bullet dwell or "barrel time," which is so brief an event (~1 ms for a rifle), it otherwise would be beyond our means to measure it with any useful degree of accuracy. But QL correlates MV to BT by calculating a pressure curve based on the components and conditions you enter. And MV the shooter can measure.

OBT does not guarantee there are not other accuracy nodes outside of its predictions, some of which potentially could be tighter than what OBT predicts. All it alleges to do is to get you on an MV where an accuracy node should be. The upshot is that it offers to reduce range time and rounds expended in the pursuit of the perfect load. If you trust in OBT, if you utilize it to full effect, you necessarily are ignoring the possibility that there are other charge weights (which OCW or Audette could identify) that would produce tighter groups. So pick your poison. Since I got read on to it, it is uncommon that I would need more than three range sessions and 18 rounds total to get me to the tweaking seating depth stage, especially with a rifle that I've done OBT with before.

I only bought a chrono, BTW, because I wanted to do OBT. But since I bought one (and now I have two), I find that its greater value is as QC on my reloading. If I'm shooting paper targets, I shoot over a chrono, period. That's the only thing that lets me keep track of my SDs, which lets me know whether I'm straying from the straight and narrow. And my OBT values. Something could come along to tempt me away from OBT, but my method already is so compact, so economical, and so effective, I'm not holding my breath.
 
Last edited:
So no one uses optimum barrel time?

It's an interesting science project, but has a flaw in that it seems to claim that bore diameter changes on the order of a couple micro-inches would matter. This is smaller (by quite a bit) than the ridges of the surface finish of the barrel, so I have my doubts. You can't distill the dynamic behavior of a rifle down to just one thing, or I haven't seen anyone do so convincingly.
 
It's an interesting science project, but has a flaw in that it seems to claim that bore diameter changes on the order of a couple micro-inches would matter. This is smaller (by quite a bit) than the ridges of the surface finish of the barrel, so I have my doubts. You can't distill the dynamic behavior of a rifle down to just one thing, or I haven't seen anyone do so convincingly.
OBT doesn't attempt to distill a barrel's many dynamic modes down to one factor, it's looking to minimize the impact of the single factor which (Chris Long believes) is most disruptive to the consistent release of the bullet from the muzzle. Fundamentally, it's using internal ballistics to yield the same information as OCW does from external ballistics: identifying center mass of a nice, fat accuracy node.

OBT got me curious when I used it to "reverse-engineer" my pet .204 varmint load, and it came to the exact same charge weight -- to the 10th of a grain -- as I previously had. And this was a load I had sweated over for weeks to get it shooting bugholes. So I used OBT to cook up a .308 load, which consistently shot about 1/2 MoA, same as I get with 168-gr FGMM, which I figure probably is as best as that particular rifle ever could shoot. Then just out of curiosity, I dropped one and two accuracy nodes and loaded five rounds at each of the reduced charge weights. No tweaking, no fudging, no testing to confirm velocity, just straight from my preferred node's load to the next two slower nodes. Drop powder, seat bullets, and off to the range. They also shot 1/2 MoA groups. Both of them.

I figure the odds of OBT randomly predicting three different charge weights that would shoot near identical dispersions are astronomical, unless there is some sound science behind it. After that experiment, I stopped fretting over why it worked and concentrated on not breaking the mojo. I don't care if it only works under the light of a full moon, with the blood of a fresh-killed rooster sprinkled on my reloading bench, and a cross-eyed black cat perched on my shoulder. So long as it continues to make my load development this efficient, I'm willing to limit my reloading to once every 28 days, to keep a large supply of roosters on hand, and on occasion to shop for cats at the local animal shelters.
 
I use a chronograph sideways at high elevations and clear skies.
This year I stopped using Quicktarget for drop charts and started measuring at range distance increments.

So the only jobs for the chrono left are adjusting Quickload to a batch of powder and bragging. [4,200 fps from my 223, but the brass cannot be re used]