I've reading all your post on "can't wait for the beast". So I went over to Niightforce's web siite to check them out. While there I found the ATACR. Other than the ATACR being SFP and the BEAST being FFP I can't see alot of difference. They have the same Magnification range, the ATACR has a little better eye relief which everyone says for tactical matches or "real" field use is important. The BEAST runs about $1000 to $1500 more than the ATACR. I read a post by LowLight one time that said most people only range with their reticle about 20% of the time. I am by no means "anti-night force, I'm just trying to figure out what is $1000+ better about the BEAST? I'm thinking I like the ATACR.
Rifle Scopes You nightforce guys help me out.
- Thread starter phillip61
- Start date
Not just misses, but wind holds (I dial elevation and "hold" wind), leads on movers, etc... Example: I have a USO 5-25 in FFP. I typically run the mag at 10-20 and anywhere in between. No math needed as the reticle shrinks/grows with the magnification and remains accurate. I can count the number of times on one hand that I've shot with the scope on 25x.
The glass and quality of the coatings are different as well. Plus the turrets and power of the BEAST is different... at SHOT Show they said they did a comparison with all the top brands like Swarovski, S & , etc... they all picked the BEAST... they were all anonymous, supposedly. It's a nice glass but pricey.
5-25×56 ATACR™ Riflescope
ATACR
What’s in a name? In this case, everything. Our all-new ATACR™—Advanced Tactical Riflescope—builds upon the long and successful history of our NXS™ series. The result is a riflescope of unprecedented long-range capability and image quality. The 34mm tube allows 120 MOA/34.9 Mils of elevation adjustment—20% more than our most capable NXS™. Fully multi-coated ED glass results in light transmission values of over 90%, brilliant images and exceptional color contrast. A magnification range of 5x to 25x, and a wider field of view as a result of its unique optical prescription (17.96 feet at 5x) will cover virtually any situation a shooter could encounter. All this power comes in a compact package, too, measuring just 14.3" in length. Our patented ZeroStop® is standard, and the ATACR™ is offered with two of our most sophisticated reticles, leaving nothing to chance. The ATACR™ redefines the "long" in long range for serious shooters and hunters, pushing the envelope of precision…and possiblity.
SPECIFICATIONS 5-25x56 ATACR™
Focal Plane: Second
Magnification: 5-25x
Objective Diameter: 56mm
Exit Pupil Diameter: 5x: 10.52mm
25x: 2.28mm
Field Of View: 5x: 17.96ft (5.47m)
25x: 4.92ft (1.5 m)
@100 Yards/100 Meters
Eye Relief: 3.54in (90mm)
Internal Adjustment Range: 120MOA elev. 60MOA wind.
34.9Mil elev. 17.45Mil wind.
Click Value: .250MOA / .1Mil-Rad
Tube Diameter: 34mm (1.34in)
Ocular Diameter: 44mm
Mounting Length: 6.13in/156mm
Weight: 38oz/1077grams
Overall Length: 14.3in/363mm
Reticles: MOAR™, MIL-R™
Illumination: Standard
Yes
SPECIFICATIONS 5-25x56 B.E.A.S.T.™
Focal Plane: First
Magnification: 5-25x
Objective Diameter: 56mm
Exit Pupil Diameter: 5x: 8.3mm
25x: 2.3mm
Field Of View: 5x: 18.7ft (5.7m)
25x: 4.92ft (1.45m)
@100 Yards/100 Meters
Eye Relief: 3.35"-3.54" (85-90mm)
Internal Adjustment Range: 120MOA elev. 80MOA wind.
34.9Mil elev. 23.27Mil wind.
Click Value: .25 and .50MOA / .1 and .2Mil-Rad
Tube Diameter: 34mm (1.34in)
Ocular Diameter: 46mm
Mounting Length: 5.92in/150mm
Weight: 39oz/1097grams
Overall Length: 15.37in/390mm
Reticles: MIL-R™ (F1), MOAR™ (F1), MD2.0™, TReMoR 2*, H59*
Illumination: Digillum™
Yes
i say if you dont need the features of the beast then go with what suits your needs , i have a sfp scope and used the reticle for ranging ,although i havent used it as much since i do have a range finder, and to be honest with you i just hold over most of the time. i have it set at ten power and just leave it there, never had a need to go higher than that ..... night force are great but in my case i didnt need that much scope i just target shoot and hunt i dont compete in and the matches they have in my town are more of bench rest matches so really ask your self what you need and what you would want ... saved me some money when i asked my self the same question....
After comparing the two (on paper) the differences are as follows.
ATACR SFP, BEASR FFP
Exiit pupil on the ATACR is 2.2mm larger
FOV. .74mm larger on the BEAST
Eye relief. 0-to about 1/8" smaller on the beast
Internal adjustment. 20 more moa wind adjustment on the beast
click value, 1-click .250 on ATACR, .5 or .250 on beast.
Ocular diameter, 2mm larger on beast
Mounting length, a little less then 1/4" for the beast
weight, 1oz less for the ATACR
Reticles, three more choices for the beast
Illumination, standard IIll. for ATACR, Dig. Ill. for beast.
These specifications don't talk about image quality, but in the ATACR description it says "a riflescope of unprecedented long-range capability and image quality" I understand that was written before the beast came out, but now the the beast has been unleashed I would think the night force people would have or should have changed that statement if the beast has better optical quality than the ATACR.
ATACR SFP, BEASR FFP
Exiit pupil on the ATACR is 2.2mm larger
FOV. .74mm larger on the BEAST
Eye relief. 0-to about 1/8" smaller on the beast
Internal adjustment. 20 more moa wind adjustment on the beast
click value, 1-click .250 on ATACR, .5 or .250 on beast.
Ocular diameter, 2mm larger on beast
Mounting length, a little less then 1/4" for the beast
weight, 1oz less for the ATACR
Reticles, three more choices for the beast
Illumination, standard IIll. for ATACR, Dig. Ill. for beast.
These specifications don't talk about image quality, but in the ATACR description it says "a riflescope of unprecedented long-range capability and image quality" I understand that was written before the beast came out, but now the the beast has been unleashed I would think the night force people would have or should have changed that statement if the beast has better optical quality than the ATACR.
Over the years I've had to use Nightforce on a few different weapon systems, and I never did warm up to Nightforce scopes. Aprox. three months ago I got to play with both the ACACR and BEAST. I think the best thing about the BEAST is that it's a scope finally on par optically with S&B, IOR and Hensoldt tactical models. I never liked any of the NF reticles and to me allot of what they are touting is just regular marketing tactics as all manufactures do.
I'm sure in time the BEAST will be a popular scope, personally I fell there are better scopes to be had in it's price range (and even lower) and if some one was set on a NF, wanted FFP and did not want to sink the money into a BEAST I'd recommend they look at the F1 with the mag range suited them.
I'm sure in time the BEAST will be a popular scope, personally I fell there are better scopes to be had in it's price range (and even lower) and if some one was set on a NF, wanted FFP and did not want to sink the money into a BEAST I'd recommend they look at the F1 with the mag range suited them.
You think you have the correct dope, but sometimes it isn't correct. In a perfect world, it would be a one time calculation and that is that. But changes in weather happen, and even though the fancy ballistics calculator corrects for this, it is a bit much to ask for it to be absolutely spot on. Not to mention variance between cartridge to cartridge, and some other odds and ends that may throw your impact point slightly off between range sessions.
Let me ask a dumb question. I understand with a FFP if you miss 1 moa low you can tell it's one moa low regardless of the power setting you are on. But with a SFP if I'm not on full power and I miss the same 1 moa low, I may not know it's 1 moa because I can not range correctly, but can I not just look and see how low I hit from my center cross hair and adjust that same amount?
You can hold it, but not make a turret adjustment, unless the magnification you are on is a round factor of the ranging mag. For example, if your scope ranges at 22x, and you have it set on 11x, then every mil or moa becomes 2 mils or 2 moa. Easy math, but under pressure in a match, it can be too much to handle. Also, if you are spotting for someone, even though you can spot the miss, if you are not on your ranging magnification, you cannot really call out the adjustment for him, unless you are dialed at a denominator of the ranging mag. Again, more math and more cumbersome in an already pressured situation.
Several months ago I had an in-depth discussion with Nightforce technical dept. on this subject (BEAST vs. ATACR) The gentleman that I spoke with stated that to make a FFP ATACR (functionally a BEAST) would cost the same as the price difference between the two. In that way the inclusion of the digital illumination and the turret lock are included at "no charge". Not being a scope engineer, the idea that relocating the reticles location could radically change a scope's price surprises me, but hey, who am I to question... All that being said, I ended up with an ATACR as I was unwilling to wait any longer. I am very impressed with the ATACR, especially since I was very happy with my NXS 5.5-22x56. Using the ATACR I was able to clearly visualize my partners .308 bullet impact strikes on a piece of well camouflaged 18" steel at 1,234 yds. Neither his NXS 5.5-22, nor my Leupold MkIV spotter were able to resolve this level of detail (even despite the spotter's greater magnification.) I generally shoot on full power magnification, and at distances in excess of 1K, so the lack of FFP hasn't been a big concern.
As DFOOSKING observes, you would use the reticle for correcting shooting 100% of the time for both wind and elevation. It is important to note that whether you are on full power, or whatever-power you can (all things remaining constant) still holdover two subtensions, right two subtensions for a shot that landed two low/two left. The meaning of the subtension would be different with a SFP scope when it is not set to reference magnification. Therefore, the real problem in this case would be in documenting your shot, or in following a spotters commands accurately. Hope this helped...
As DFOOSKING observes, you would use the reticle for correcting shooting 100% of the time for both wind and elevation. It is important to note that whether you are on full power, or whatever-power you can (all things remaining constant) still holdover two subtensions, right two subtensions for a shot that landed two low/two left. The meaning of the subtension would be different with a SFP scope when it is not set to reference magnification. Therefore, the real problem in this case would be in documenting your shot, or in following a spotters commands accurately. Hope this helped...
Got it. That makes sense. I wasn't arguing, I just didn't know. I have a few services connected injuries that prevent me from entering tactical matches or any kind of match where a lot of running or walking long distances is required. But I've been practicing at 600yds at a friends place and plan on entering a 66 shot 600yd prone match at Camp Robinson Arkansas pretty soon. They have one every month. 600yds on Saturday and 1000yds on Sunday. I don't think my 168's will make it to 1000. but I'm getting pretty good at 600. I run a IOR 3.5X18X50 SFP right now. Seeing as I only shoot at Known distances or with a range finder with no time limit I think most any SFP will serve me well. Thanks for the input. I now know a little more than I use to!
I have to be honest, SFP scopes like my NXS has always served me fine when shooting recreationally. It wasn't until I shot my first timed competition where I was spotting for my partner that I really felt the need for a FFP scope. The rifle with the FFP scope was very easy and low stress to shoot with. With the SFP scope, I did make some errors, including forgetting what mag I was on and calling the wrong corrections. Was kind of embarrassing. The only way for me to make due was to dial the scope to the ranging mag (12x on the Hensoldt) and leave it there, regardless of the situation. Not the greatest option for everything, but still, 12x is not too bad, even at distance.
Even with that, I do feel that my SFP scopes give me a better picture with a finer reticle relative to the target. At higher mags, sometimes the reticle seems a little chunky on my 4-16 Hensoldt when shooting at 6" or smaller targets at distance. Go ahead and keep shooting with your SFP scope. I don't think you need to get caught up with something you don't really need.
Even with that, I do feel that my SFP scopes give me a better picture with a finer reticle relative to the target. At higher mags, sometimes the reticle seems a little chunky on my 4-16 Hensoldt when shooting at 6" or smaller targets at distance. Go ahead and keep shooting with your SFP scope. I don't think you need to get caught up with something you don't really need.
Lowlight just posted a few days ago several times the differences between the S&B and Beast and the older NF's. I think the big difference is the glass as well as where they're manufactured. The older second focal plane NF's were made in Japan and are still made in Japan. The first focal plane NF's are made in the U.S. The new FFP NF's are using glass from Europe, not Japan. I own 2 sfp NF's and I'm happy as can be with them. I love the turrets, reliability and dependability. The clicks are second to none. I was holding out for a S&B for a DTA, but I am so impressed with Nightforce, I think I'm going to try the Beast out as well because it sounds like the S&B glass probably will edge NF's glass, S&B are always getting sent back to the factory. I've never had to send a NF back. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. Check out Lowlight's posts on the other "BEAST" threads.
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