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How to learn precision shooting?

Saluki2003

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
May 2, 2012
55
12
San Diego
I'm about to pick up the lower of my first AR and put together a RECCE style rifle. My goals for this gun are to use it as a precision rifle from 100-600 yards. I'm a complete newbie to shooting and could use some direction from you more experienced shooters. I've begun searching online but there is SO MUCH info out there that I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. If you guys were starting from the beginning how would you go about learning?

Here is the build list for my 1st AR:
JD Machine Lower
Mil-spec Upper (Ares Armor I believe)
Black Hole Weaponry 16" Recce Profile, Melonite, 1/8 Polygonal Rifiling, 416 Stainless Steel, Carbine, 5.56mm, M4 Feed Ramps
Parallax Tactical Gen2 13” Free Float Super Slim Rail
Parallax Tactical low pro gas block
Parallax Tactical gas tube
Parallax Tactical BCG
Parallax Tactical Melonite Paracomp
ALG Defense Quality Mil-Spec Trigger
Rock River Arms LPK
Magpul MOE Grip
Magpul UBR Stock
Magpul BUIS
BAD Lever
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 MOA optic
Warne Ramp mount
 
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Personally.. Id go with a bolt action .308 for precision shooting especially to the 600yd range where the .223 is pushing its limits for alot including precision. An AR15 is accurate but to want want one as a "Precision Rifle"is asking alot from a shoulder fired semi auto.

My ARs are surgical out to 100yds regardless of the shooting position, beyond that I am not too concerned because thats not the purpose I have them for. Either way though, it looks like youre on track to building something pretty nice and pricey too but that comes with the territory in this hobby... Good Luck!
 
You'll be alright with something like 77gr SMKs out to 600. Start at distances at say, 100/200/300 Yards, and become proficient under any different scenario you could encounter at those distances.

Don't bite off more than you can chew at first. It can be overwhelming, if you let it.

Start slow, learn and build the Fundamentals from the get go, and be very strict and discplined about it.

Practice your quality, not your quantity.

Be very observant, being able to decipher what works for you, and what doesn't.

Be consistent, once you find what works. Things like Natural Point of Aim, Propper Trigger Control, Respiratoy Pause etc. are all things you should start looking into, and researching.

Be a Sponge ;)

Merry Christmas to ya!!!
 
You'll be alright with something like 77gr SMKs out to 600. Start at distances at say, 100/200/300 Yards, and become proficient under any different scenario you could encounter at those distances.

Don't bite off more than you can chew at first. It can be overwhelming, if you let it.

Start slow, learn and build the Fundamentals from the get go, and be very strict and discplined about it.

Practice your quality, not your quantity.

Be very observant, being able to decipher what works for you, and what doesn't.

Be consistent, once you find what works. Things like Natural Point of Aim, Propper Trigger Control, Respiratoy Pause etc. are all things you should start looking into, and researching.

Be a Sponge ;)

Merry Christmas to ya!!!

Agreed! It shouldnt take long once you find what works for you.
 
Agree with Flea21. A bolt action rifle would be your best bet. While ARs can be fun and very effective, I would not consider them precision weapons. Lots of research and reading will get you started correctly. Then it's practice, practice and more practice. Good luck.
 
A bolt action isnt an option since I just dumped a bunch of money into building my first AR. However, a bolt action is definitely going to be my next gun. I tried to build this AR to be as accurate as I could afford. I also plan to start at 100 yards and move out to 300 which is the longest shot I can take at the range. Longer shots will only be possible when we go out to the desert.

Are there any books or videos in particular that you guys would recommend starting out with?
 
Can you guys provide some links to good videos/literature to start out with? I just want to make sure I'm getting good info.

Thanks guys!
 
A book that really helped me in the beginning was "The Competitive AR-15" by Glen Zediker has plenty of good info. Another book that helps with wind reading is "The Wind Book for Rifle Shooters" by Linda K Miller and Keith A Cunningham.
 
OP,

You can learn everything important to good shooting with an M4 or M16A4 using the as issued BDC irons, and an M1 sling. Learning from such a platform will actually reveal secrets to good shooting which are not given up to the shooter who initiates his journey with a scoped rifle and bipod.
 
OP,

There's no Voodoo or magic to any particular discipline. What you learn in any discipline is applicable to all of them.

But learning basic things like spotting your hits and how to use your reticle cannot be performed with iron sights.
 
Consider a Centurion or High Caliber Sales RECCE rifle upper or a .308 LMT, GAP built rifle or the like. A bolt gun will be more accurate, a semi more versatile. Clearly go for an 18" stainless 1:7 twist barrel if you build a 5.56 A Geiselle SAA-E trigger merits looking into. This is a Mk12 Mod01 that is solid out to 600. I have shot it out to 1200 yards, but it is hit and miss after 900 yards. If you want a good crash course in marksmanship, go see a Marine Corps recruiter. Or follow the links above.
 

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I'll throw this out there:

1/8 twist will do fine stabilizing the 70-77gr bullets out to distance.

16" will do fine as long as it is a quality made barrel that is meant for precision (as that's what you're going for).

Semi-autos do have several advantages for the practical shooter. Here's a recent video that will highlight the use of the semi-auto in a competition:

Mail Call Mondays Season 2 #49 - Semi-Autos in Precision Matches - YouTube
 
a grendel barrel, bolt, and mags could be a good option if you need to stick with an AR, but it will cost as much as a remington 700 varmint. Its how I started tho - broke apart my .223, slapped in the Grendel stuff, then started shooting 1K+ and reading, lots of reading.
 
+1 on the Grendel. If you really want to stay w/ the AR platform and you don't have some alternative purpose in mind (like shooting coyotes), the Grendel (20" barrel) stays supersonic as far out as the .308. Lothar Walther barrels are top notch and fairly easy to come by. Cheaper barrels can be had from others (blackhole, but I have no experience with them). My only word of caution would be if you decide to on a precision rifle, spend the money for a trued upper. CIV tactical has standard receivers and Rainier has billet match receivers (true to .0003 or less). The billet is a better way to go if you are putting a heavy barrel on it.
 
Interesting how the OP asked for input on learning to shoot precision out to 600yds, and half the responses are telling him to get a bolt gun, different barrel length, equipment, equipment, equipment, after he already has selected a perfectly capable set of components for shooting out to 600yds.

If I could go back in time to myself and give myself some advice, I would send myself to a series of formal training courses from competent, experienced, and reputable instructors. Thankfully, I did receive a lot of that from 1st SFG's SOTIC back when I was very young, and fell in love with the wind-reading skill set after I realized how critical it is with a cartridge like 7.62 M118 Special Ball. Someone already mentioned Rifles Only, which is very sound advice. You will be in some of the best hands in the Nation with them. I would also recommend getting out and competing, regardless of skill level. You can only get better.

The biggest leap in your learning curve is going to be getting practical exercise on wind-reading from someone that has been shooting in the wind regularly for years. You can watch all the videos, read all the books, and run your ballistics through a program until your eyes bulge out, but nothing will make up for getting behind a scope and watching bullets travel through dynamic wind, temperature, and barometric environments that are not the same hour-to-hour.

We frequently shoot well-built 16" 5.56 or .223 Wylde carbines out to 600yds with 68gr Hornady HPBT, 69gr SMK, 75gr HPBT, and 77gr HPBT, on 18" plates. If all you are going to do is lay in the prone bipod supported, or ride a bench at the range, then go with as long of a barrel as possible without over-doing the dwell time, and look at other calibers than .223 Remington, unless you are ok with single-loading 80gr and 90gr SMK's & VLD's.

But if you're like me, and want to be able to go from a walking, smoking & joking posture, to behind cover and placing effective fire on man-sized targets from difficult positions out to the effective range of your carbine within seconds, the 16" guns are the way to go, unless you are a beast of a man at well over 6ft 2"/250lbs. When you start shooting positions, the lighter, handier gun is faster on-target, easier to sling into, easier to hold on-target, and just easier to manage all around. If your 18" SPR clone with bipod and quad rail is doing the figure 8 in a kneeling position, while I impact steel with a little 16" MLGS blaster with a quality barrel, which one is better?

18" vs. 16" External Ballistics
Run the external ballistics on a 77gr SMK fired from an 18" vs. a 16" and see how relatively meaningless it is. 600yds is hard to hit from positions with either gun, and from all the shooters I have seen over the years, 400-450yds is where most people max out with positional shooting on 18" plates in ~10mph full value winds. Anybody who can hit 18" plates from improvised kneeling or seated positions on the fly consistently past 450yds is an exceptional shooter (not with a dedicated shooting vest and tricked gear specifically for that position-you aren't going to walk around in a shooting jacket and eye blinders with your loop sling set-up already).

As to bolt guns, they are practically worthless in a react-to-contact scenario if facing somebody with a self-loader, especially with heavy barrels. Gifted shooters can do amazing things with a well-built bolt gun, especially with a shorter barrel, but the advantage will be to the self-loader for practical shooting. If I'm just consuming oxygen at the range from a comfortable bench, with my growing middle-aged plumber butt offending passers by, yeah, a bolt gun is hard to beat, and you can really drive yourself into a false sense of assumed practical capability by drilling sub-MOA groups "all day long", before you pack up your fire stick and head back home to gloat on your marksmanship skills.

Take incoming fire from afar, with limited cover available, with your stick of choice, and now find a position that will be the solution to your survival. That is what I'm more interested in. Is the means matching the end? That is the question I always ask myself. If my only goal is to enjoy my rifle and pursue the most accurate loads with it as a discipline, then there's nothing wrong with that, but I always have looked at firearms as martial tools meant for distributing violence at as comfortable of a distance as the situation will allow, so I configure and treat them accordingly. Range guns are basically useless to me, for my personal tastes.

Components
For some advice on components, please consider getting a stock that will support a natural cheek weld, which the UBR just doesn't do for a lot of people. I would suggest a simple and inexpensive CTR with the QD sockets, and get a low-profile scope level. For the MOE grip, get the MOE+ if you are set on that design. It is wrapped in elastomer, and feels much better than a regular MOE.

Get an upper receiver that has a square face, or consider an VLTOR MUR upper. The Aero Precision uppers that I have checked have all had pretty square faces so far, and they were very affordable. Your gun will have a hard time grouping if the receiver face isn't square, and you will have undue load on your bolt lugs.

Ammunition
As to ammunition, the Hornady 75gr BTHP is hard to beat for box ammo, and the military 77gr Mk.262 Mod 1 from Black Hills is downright scary accurate in a lot of guns, while being very fast. FGMM is also very popular. Don't pull the trigger on your barrel unless it is MLGS with a 16" gun meant to push the heavies. 1/8 twist is perfect for up to 77gr.

Everything else on your list looks really good, except you are missing a good sling and QD swivels. The Parallax Tactical handguard has 4 integral rotation limited QD sockets, which is excellent, but I would find out what the weight is on it if you are looking for lightweight blaster. You can also order it Cerakoted in FDE, as you can with the Aero Precision upper receivers. You can also get Aero lowers Cerakoted directly from Aero to your FFL, for prices lower than a lot of plane jane receivers currently on the market.

So here's the list:

* Ditch the UBR for a CTR or VLTOR, SOPMOD Gen II, anything lighter with QD sockets and good cheek weld
* Get a Scope level, folding or lo-profile so the gun isn't a catch-me, spank me in close quarters, but is still able to be leveled when you shoot at distance
* Look into a set of Aero Precision receivers that are already FDE Cerakoted
* You need a charge handle. I recommend the BCM GunFighter w/medium latch. If you're a lefty, consider the Raptor.
* You need a buffer. Get an H or H2, and a quality recoil spring that will last if you are going to actually shoot this thing.
* Get some QD swivels and a Viking Tactics Padded sling, and learn how to set it up so that it is useful as a shooting sling.
* Start buying a crapload of 5.56 and .223 Match ammunition from Black Hills, Hornady, and Federal. It will be ~ $1/round.
* Check the optics section here on the Hide and look into how to install your mount and optic, with a plum line, correct eye relief, and leveling of the gun, optic, and level. You're going to need some Blue Loc-tite for your rings, and a torque driver to install your fasteners at 15-20 inch pounds.
* Once your balster is together and zero fine-tuned, enroll in a reputable rifle course that will teach fundamentals, wind-reading, trajectory with a lot of trigger time and minimal BS time in the classroom.
 
First, I would get a bolt action .22LR trainer; to learn precision shooting, one needs to refine their basic shooting.

Plus, shooting a .22LR at 200yd and beyond is very much like shooting a .223 at 600 as far as wind skills are concerned, except you don't need to find a 600yd range. Nothing wrong with learning winds skills in a far more economical manner. My preference would be for a Savage MKII FV .22LR

For shooting the AR at 100yd thru 600yd, I'd forget about a short barrel, it only gets in the way of what you want to accomplish: precision shooting at beyond-close-contact distances.

I can say that the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter provides precisely what you'd need in a factory warrantied package. With a 24" long, 1:8" twist stainless bull barrel, it shoots most loads up to 77gr quite nicely.

It would be a good mate for a Weaver 6-24 V-24 Classic. Backup sights would be out of place on this rifle.

They would not, however, be so on the [URL="http://www.stagarms.com/model-3g/"]Stag Model 3G[/URL], which is optimized for 3-Gun Competition, and similarly attractive for a closer-contact-distance consideration. It can be ordered as a swap-out upper version as the Stag Model 3GH.

I also like the CMMG 16 Bull W.A.S.P. (as a swap-out upper), but they are essentially unobtanium at this time.

For a 16", 1:9" Bull Barrel, I would pair it with this scope; definitely not a lightweight nor a high end model, but a respectable choice for reasonable loads (50gr-69gr) out to about 400yd, and maybe a push beyond.

For BUIS, these can be used, but this will usually require a gas block replacement with a Rail Height Picatinny Gas Block. This ensures that the sight mounting base aligns properly with the bore axis. Make certain you order your gas block the proper barrel step diameter (.750" vs .936").

Trying to mount the front part of a BUIS pair on the rail may be questionable, the sight radius is very (too?) short; I recommend a matched height Picatinny Gas Block.

New guys always want to build their own cool guns; but usually, exactly what they need (as opposed to want) can be most effectively found in a factory model rifle.

Greg
 
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Change out that ALG trigger for something designed for precision. SSA-E or Timney, whatever your preference, but that ALG is not going where you want to go.

Get into handloading. Understand the science of what you are attempting, for example, can you handload a round with a 77gr SMK that will be supersonic at the 1,000 yard line? Will your scope selection allow you to dial that amount of elevation adjustment?

You can develop the skills, with practice and time. Just don't go into this thinking you are going to be a man hunter, that's a different skill set.

A light round as the .223/5.56 is will be a challenge at anything over 600 yards, but learn the science, load your own, and practice and you will amaze yourself.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
 
So here's the list:

* Ditch the UBR for a CTR or VLTOR, SOPMOD Gen II, anything lighter with QD sockets and good cheek weld
* Get a Scope level, folding or lo-profile so the gun isn't a catch-me, spank me in close quarters, but is still able to be leveled when you shoot at distance
* Look into a set of Aero Precision receivers that are already FDE Cerakoted
* You need a charge handle. I recommend the BCM GunFighter w/medium latch. If you're a lefty, consider the Raptor.
* You need a buffer. Get an H or H2, and a quality recoil spring that will last if you are going to actually shoot this thing.
* Get some QD swivels and a Viking Tactics Padded sling, and learn how to set it up so that it is useful as a shooting sling.
* Start buying a crapload of 5.56 and .223 Match ammunition from Black Hills, Hornady, and Federal. It will be ~ $1/round.
* Check the optics section here on the Hide and look into how to install your mount and optic, with a plum line, correct eye relief, and leveling of the gun, optic, and level. You're going to need some Blue Loc-tite for your rings, and a torque driver to install your fasteners at 15-20 inch pounds.
* Once your balster is together and zero fine-tuned, enroll in a reputable rifle course that will teach fundamentals, wind-reading, trajectory with a lot of trigger time and minimal BS time in the classroom.


Thanks for all the info! The rifle build list is what I've already bought so changing equipment right now isn't an option (I'm broke now!).
* I will keep an eye out for a stock with QD sockets and a better cheek weld though.
* I'm gonna buy a scope level tomorrow and I'm looking for some help with the mount/install of my scope to get it done right the first time.
* I'm not sure what the square face means for my upper. How do I tell if my upper has a square face?
* I have the BCM Gunfighter medium charge handle
* Not sure what buffer and spring I have....I just got the one that the Parallax guys recommended for me.
* I'm gonna be buying a sling and a bipod soon as well.
* I'm planning to start reloading (my uncle has the setup for all the reloading)
* I will be doing a lot of reading and watching videos and trying to get as much range time as I can as well as looking for a rifle course in my area.


Thanks for the info guys....I've learned A LOT from this site!
 
OP,

You now have some very well placed advice from those with knowledge here as well as some very misplaced advice from unknowledgeable shooters here; and, it appears, you are going to try to get off to a good start with it all, kind of like when you were a kid and built a space ship out of cardboard boxes to take you to the moon. Then, the fun was mostly imagined as it is still now with some of the guidance you seem to have taken to heart so far. LRRPF52 and Greg gave you some good advice however and you should ponder it before you buy anything. The bottom line is precision shooting is just another way of saying marksmanship, so what you really want to know, if becoming a better shot is what your thread is about, is the fundamentals: the principles of marksmanship, the elements and factors of a solid position, wind and weather effects/counters, slope dope, trajectory/ballistics, shooter/target analysis and range estimation. An understanding of these concepts, pretty much everything important to good shooting, and some development of picture and motor memory will see you off to a good start with any sort of gun you are shooting with. That's to say, you will have what it takes to hit precisely where aimed. BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a rack grade M4 with a BDC and a spotting scope is about all you really need in the way of equipment. I prefer the commercial equivalent of the M16A2 with match conditioning for 1000 yard Service Rifle competition but out to 600 when loaded with something like Mk.262 the M4 will suffice, especially when topped with an ACOG. They all shoot in the direction they're pointed. And, after all, while a match conditioned rifle may support marksmanship, it is not a substitute for it. Too, many folks have the wrong mindset, thinking it's all about the equipment. What it's really all about is properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pulling the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing SMOOTH trigger control. Everything else supports those two tasks. You can learn most of this stuff attending an M1 Garand Clinic or the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School.
 
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How to learn precision shooting?

OP,

How would I do it?

If I wanted to shoot NRA high power I would take a clinic from someone who shoots that discipline.

If I wanted to shoot IPSC I would take an IPSC course from a known shooting school with an accomplished cadre of instructors.

If I was new, and wanted to learn practical precision rifle shooting, I would take a PR1/2 class at Rifles Only.

The next one is the week after the Bushnell Brawl match, the last week in February. If you sign up, send me a PM and I'll get you squared away for the course.
 
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OP,

You now have some very well placed advice from those with knowledge here as well as some very misplaced advice from unknowledgeable shooters here; and, it appears, you are going to try to get off to a good start with it all, kind of like when you were a kid and built a space ship out of cardboard boxes to take you to the moon. Then, the fun was mostly imagined as it is still now with some of the guidance you seem to have taken to heart so far. LRRPF52 and Greg gave you some good advice however and you should ponder it before you buy anything. The bottom line is precision shooting is just another way of saying marksmanship, so what you really want to know, if becoming a better shot is what your thread is about, is the fundamentals: the principles of marksmanship, the elements and factors of a solid position, wind and weather effects/counters, slope dope, trajectory/ballistics, shooter/target analysis and range estimation. An understanding of these concepts, pretty much everything important to good shooting, and some development of picture and motor memory will see you off to a good start with any sort of gun you are shooting with. That's to say, you will have what it takes to hit precisely where aimed. BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a rack grade M4 with a BDC and a spotting scope is about all you really need in the way of equipment. I prefer the commercial equivalent of the M16A2 with match conditioning for 1000 yard Service Rifle competition but out to 600 when loaded with something like Mk.262 the M4 will suffice, especially when topped with an ACOG. They all shoot in the direction they're pointed. And, after all, while a match conditioned rifle may support marksmanship, it is not a substitute for it. Too, many folks have the wrong mindset, thinking it's all about the equipment. What it's really all about is properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pulling the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing SMOOTH trigger control. Everything else supports those two tasks. You can learn most of this stuff attending an M1 Garand Clinic or the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School.

That is exactly what I would like to learn...the fundamentals of marksmanship. I have had ZERO instruction on shooting and everything I've learned so far has come from watching videos and trying my best to teach myself (with a pistol since that is all I have owned till now). I want to learn how to use my rifle to the best of its capabilities. I know that it will out-shoot my by far as of right now. I want to learn how to narrow that gap between my ability and my rifle's.

OP,

How would I do it?

If I wanted to shoot NRA high power I would take a clinic from someone who shoots that discipline.

If I wanted to shoot IPSC I would take an IPSC course from a known shooting school with an accomplished cadre of instructors.

If I was new, and wanted to learn practical precision rifle shooting, I would take a PR1/2 class at Rifles Only.

The next one is the week after the Bushnell Brawl match, the last week in February. If you sign up, send me a PM and I'll get you squared away for the course.

I will be looking for classes that are offered in my area to get some good instruction. I also know a couple team guys but knowing when they are around is pretty hit and miss. Rifles Only looks AMAZING I just cant afford to take a trip there right now. However, I am planning to save up for a trip there hopefully in the near future.

Thanks for all the info guys....I REALLY appreciate it!! This site has taught me so much already but I have a lot to learn yet. I appologize ahead of time for the stupid questions that will be coming your way soon.
 
When you get your scope mounted, leveled, and level leveled, with your rings Blue Loc-tited, put your carbine in a vice, and bore-sight it with an offset. There's a thread on the 1st page of the rifle optics section here on the Hide that talks you through it, which will have you very close to POA/POI at 100yds and will save you ammo for your zeroing procedures.

Before you ever fire a shot live, I would recommend doing a lot of dry-firing, with good technique and follow-through. Frank (Lowlight) has some great training videos that will square you away, so I would study those with no distractions around.

If your first shots will be from the bipod with rear bag supported, as you set up on your target, maintain target-focus the entire time when setting into position. No matter what I am shooting, the target is the reason why I am there at the end of the day, and the target drives everything. The blaster is only a bullet funnel that provides a means to placing projectiles through exactly where I want on the target, whether it be from my deep concealment CCW pistol at contact range in a parking lot stuck between two vehicles in the ice at night, or at 1400m on a man-sized target from a .338 LM in the rain.

If you get into position while staring a mental .224 hole through the target, you will find that your position will be much closer to your natural point of aim than if you are only focused at putting your range bag, rifle, and gear down on the ground or on a bench in the tunnel vision of the local set-up. Anytime you walk onto a range, focus with obsessive intent on the targets, which target is yours, and how you are going to put your first bullet through the center of that target (once you have a fine-tuned zero). This will set the stage for the rest of your shooting that day.

Once you are set-up, go into a series of dry-firing exercises (don't do this with a rimfire on an empty chamber, as it will damage most rimfire firing pins). Once you are able to call your shots to the smallest cone of error that is acceptable to you, you will be ready to go live. From prone & bench supported positions, I shoot with my support hand in the sniper off-hand position, where it grabs the toe of the buttstock and helps lock the rifle into a very solid hold, often with a rear bag if I am just determining weapon accuracy potential or doing load development.

Your trigger finger should only touch the trigger, not the frame, and your pull stroke should be straight and to the rear, maintaining rear pressure once the shot breaks. It would really be worth your time to have someone coach you through all this one-on-one, as you will be handed a lifetime of experience without having to re-learn what is already known by highly-competent shooters.

If there are any senior or demonstrably competent Hide members in your area, ask to go out with them and get some one-on-one coaching.
 
That is exactly what I would like to learn...the fundamentals of marksmanship. I have had ZERO instruction on shooting and everything I've learned so far has come from watching videos and trying my best to teach myself (with a pistol since that is all I have owned till now). I want to learn how to use my rifle to the best of its capabilities. I know that it will out-shoot my by far as of right now. I want to learn how to narrow that gap between my ability and my rifle's.



I will be looking for classes that are offered in my area to get some good instruction. I also know a couple team guys but knowing when they are around is pretty hit and miss. Rifles Only looks AMAZING I just cant afford to take a trip there right now. However, I am planning to save up for a trip there hopefully in the near future.

Thanks for all the info guys....I REALLY appreciate it!! This site has taught me so much already but I have a lot to learn yet. I appologize ahead of time for the stupid questions that will be coming your way soon.

looks like you need some bargain instruction, that would be Appleseed - the shoot boss can even usually arrange for a .22 loaner to start - 400 .22 and 100 223 for the weekend will keep it under 200$
 
Do they even make .22 LR anymore? People keep asking about it, walking into gun stores scratching themselves like a withdrawing meth head on a smash-and-grab binge.

Scratch scratch....itch
"Yo...do you you guys have any .22......?"
 
as noted it is funny and kind of sad that someone asks for marksmanship help and gets told he has the wrong rifle. This link is exactly what you need:

High Power Service Rifle Clinic Rescheduled | Santa Margarita Gun Club

open the pdf file and get all the info for the two day clinic. contact them and tell them you are a tyro and just want to watch and take notes, i bet they won't charge the normal fee if you aren't shooting. I know you are not into national match course shooting but there is no better opportunity to learn from National Champions, and its reasonably priced. After this clinic there are monthly matches at South Bay Rod and Gun in east county S.D. and also matches at Pendleton. FREE to watch. When you see some of the groups that are shot by these guys with iron sights and slinged up rifles you might redefine your idea of marksmanship skills and what is needed to shoot well.
Sorry to put this so bluntly but you are a fool if you don't go to this, these clinics are very rare and almost never taught by guys of this caliber. I've been to several during my active duty days and they teach you everything you need to know.

just wanted to add that because of this type of instruction and being around the level these guys shoot at is why i'm Double Distinguished and a High Master at Long Range. I know blah, blah, blah but these guys can teach fundamentals better than anybody and it's right in your backyard. A unique opportunity for you.
 
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There's great info in the SH online training area, and it's not very expensive for what you get. Sign up for a few months of that a drink it in. Someone mentioned Appleseed class, that's a good option as well to get you goin. Work the fundamentals in every repetition and dry fire more than you think you need to.
 
OP,

You can learn everything important to good shooting with an M4 or M16A4 using the as issued BDC irons, and an M1 sling. Learning from such a platform will actually reveal secrets to good shooting which are not given up to the shooter who initiates his journey with a scoped rifle and bipod.

I agree!! My first two+ decades of shooting long arms (ARs) was with iron sights on a less than match grade setup. The basics. Then I wanted more from my rifle and moved forward from there.
 
OP,

You now have some very well placed advice from those with knowledge here as well as some very misplaced advice from unknowledgeable shooters here; and, it appears, you are going to try to get off to a good start with it all, kind of like when you were a kid and built a space ship out of cardboard boxes to take you to the moon. Then, the fun was mostly imagined as it is still now with some of the guidance you seem to have taken to heart so far. LRRPF52 and Greg gave you some good advice however and you should ponder it before you buy anything. The bottom line is precision shooting is just another way of saying marksmanship, so what you really want to know, if becoming a better shot is what your thread is about, is the fundamentals: the principles of marksmanship, the elements and factors of a solid position, wind and weather effects/counters, slope dope, trajectory/ballistics, shooter/target analysis and range estimation. An understanding of these concepts, pretty much everything important to good shooting, and some development of picture and motor memory will see you off to a good start with any sort of gun you are shooting with. That's to say, you will have what it takes to hit precisely where aimed. BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, a rack grade M4 with a BDC and a spotting scope is about all you really need in the way of equipment. I prefer the commercial equivalent of the M16A2 with match conditioning for 1000 yard Service Rifle competition but out to 600 when loaded with something like Mk.262 the M4 will suffice, especially when topped with an ACOG. They all shoot in the direction they're pointed. And, after all, while a match conditioned rifle may support marksmanship, it is not a substitute for it. Too, many folks have the wrong mindset, thinking it's all about the equipment. What it's really all about is properly pointing the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pulling the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing SMOOTH trigger control. Everything else supports those two tasks. You can learn most of this stuff attending an M1 Garand Clinic or the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School.

Once again, I agree!!
 
Saluki,

My recommendation of the Grendel is probably what Sterling Shooter calls misplaced advice, and what LRRPF52 thinks is an unnecessary expenditure for you (which is funny because he shoots it quite a bit). I have nowhere near the experience and knowledge these guys have. What I do have to offer is that I was in your shoes just a few years ago, here in San Diego. Here is some background on my shooting, reasoning on why I went Grendel, and some general advice for shooting in San Diego.

I have had no formal marksmanship training, I work, and just graduated from lawschool. Not a whole lot of time for getting out to the range. I started shooting as a hobby about two and a half years ago.

I had exactly the same start you are heading towards, 16" 1-8 twist .223. I had no idea what I wanted to do with shooting, but thought finding an accurate load was a good place to start. I initially tried a bunch of match ammo - black hills, hornady, PRVI, FGMM, buffalo bore. The 77gr buffalo bore shot 1/2 minute, and the Hornady steel match 75gr just under 1 minute. I was happy and bought a bunch of both. My range at this point was P2k (100 yards, indoor). I learned later about South Bay Rod & Gun and worked my way out to 300 yards. Took the AR out there and was disappointed, but learned about the effects of bullet drop and wind drift.

From there I started doing a lot of reading on ballistics - Litz's books and the thousands of forum threads out there were very helpful.

I eventually got my ballistics nailed down, (Shooter app, kestrel, range finder) but a couple of experiences pushed me towards a different cartridge.

First - shooting steel (NCSA Pala - tons of steel plates from 100 out to ~900 yards): 100-300 yards is no problem, but past that, I could no longer see the big plates swing, and at 500 could no longer hear impacts. I don't usually have a spotter, so not knowing if I was hitting or not became very frustrating, also, waiting for the end of a firing period at south bay to see results on paper @ 300 was getting tiring. Their spotting scopes aren't good enough to resolve .223 bullet holes at 300 yards

Second - wind drift: the .223 doesn't have the greatest ballistics, the wind really pushes 77gr bullets around, and the 16 inch barrel doesn't give them much help as far as velocity. I got 2650 from 77gr Buffalo Bore. A few MPH shift can take you off target very easily. The advice above on wind drift as the #1 thing to learn is definitely true.

Combining these two effects lead to some very frustrating range sessions. I couldn't see if my shots impacted the target, and when I could see splash off target and make a correction, wind shifts would blow me to the other side of the target. I kept "chasing the spotter" - when I could see it, and not learning very much in the process. Note that LRRPF52 got to learn with M118 Special Ball, a round with significantly better wind drift than a 77gr .223.

I began to look at cartridges that would hit harder and have less wind drift. Not having a whole lot of money, and wanting to stick with the AR platform I had become familiar with, I decided on the Grendel. For not much more than match .223 ammo, I was able to get close to M118 ballistics, and much better performance on steel - I can clearly hear hits at 1050yards.

I found a used LW barrel with bolt, a few mags, and after a lot of practice (and dumping $1800 on a Nightforce NXS) , dropped an Antelope at over 500 yards (although I wouldn't do this again with the Grendel). I also got into reloading and pushing distance out past 1000 yards.

Since then I have gotten better jobs and bought a few bolt guns (including a .22 trainer), but the switch to Grendel was the catalyst that took me from frustrating sessions at the range, to enjoying long range shooting. I'd argue that using a .223 for precision shooting is better left for those who already know how to read the wind and can hold the gun well enough to spot their own shots.

I've recently gotten into the reduced range F class matches at South Bay, and the Tactical / Long Range matches at Pala (eeked out my first win last month). All are a lot of fun.

Shoot me a PM if you'd like to meet up or want any more info on the ranges around here.

edit - just saw Xcount's post on SMGC, I really want to get out and shoot with those guys, just haven't had the time or equipment. Shooting service / match rifle never interested me - I've always shot scoped guns and my eyesight isn't very good, but I definitely see the advantage in going that route and learning from the top shooters in the area. I'll definitely get out there for training and/or F class match after the bar exam is over.
 
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I do agree that if you are shooting steel with the .223 Rem from a 16" barrel, and even longer barrels in the wind, registering hits is pretty difficult at times, even for an experienced spotter.

If you start with cleanly-painted white steel using high quality paint, it becomes a bit easier, but a good spotter or spotting scope goes a long way towards that.

The OP already has his components purchased, and doesn't have the resources at this time to totally change directions with calibers, barrel lengths, and action types.

Yes, my 16" Grendel is night and day on steel compared to 5.56, with almost half the wind drift. It hits very well for such a low-recoiling round. I definitely lean on it for my AR15 precision shooting, and practical intermediate to long-range shooting because it is so friendly, but I still deal with a lot of 5.56 and .223 Match throughout the year.

If you go to a range with pits, you will be able to see your hits when the pit monkeys lower the targets, mark them for you with disks, then raise them. Get in with some shooters that do this type of shooting at 300 and 600yds. It's a lot of fun. I would be all over that Santa Margarita club clinic if I was in that area.
 
If you want to learn the basics, you REALLY need to learn how to keep a log book.

During different range sessions, focus on one area of shooting fundamentals, breathing, trigger squeeze, flinching, body position, ect.

Keep detailed and honest notes of what the results were.

I've found that body position and eye alignment are my 2 biggest problems while trigger squeeze and breathing had little effect on my group sizes.

Also, remember that if you're shooting for max accuracy, shoot off a bags, or a rest, not a bipod.
 
Don't forget to spend a lot of time with a .22. The fundamentals pertaining to the discipline of shooting are every bit as relevant and it doesn't put as huge a dent in your wallet so you'll be less often prone to skipping shooting when budget disruptions happen.
 
Don't forget to spend a lot of time with a .22. The fundamentals pertaining to the discipline of shooting are every bit as relevant and it doesn't put as huge a dent in your wallet so you'll be less often prone to skipping shooting when budget disruptions happen.

For a hair more these days you can shoot 223 instead..
 
Don't forget to spend a lot of time with a .22. The fundamentals pertaining to the discipline of shooting are every bit as relevant and it doesn't put as huge a dent in your wallet so you'll be less often prone to skipping shooting when budget disruptions happen.

I agree about the .22LR. In the past 12 months, about 70% of my trigger pulls have been .22LR with 10% being dry fire and 10% being 7.62 NATO, 5% being .45ACP, 3% being shotgun and 2% being .338LM. My first task is to LEARN HOW TO SHOOT scoped rifles and the .22LR is helping with that just fine.


Here is pic of my mossberg 215T "training rifle" in this case with atlas bipod, Leupold 3.5-10x M2 scope and PS-22 NVD.




I have been able to get very consistent at 150-200 yards and do fairly well (66% on sillouette targets) at 325 yards. And I can also hit consistently at night out to 200 yards (haven't tried farther).

I'm using AOTPR, magpul dynamics as my shooting video. And I use the whole "internet as a library" for other material. I have the AB program on my droid. I've build a "DOPE" card for the .22LR with Federal AM22, 40 gr, 1200fps ammo and validated most of entries out to 325 yards. I don't want to rely on just the AB program ,what if I drop my phone! So my goal is to have a validated DOPE card on the rifles I shoot. This means I will usually only shoot one cartridge out of each rifle, but that is fine.

I've stopped shooting .22LR for about a month and switched over to shooting my Sig716 7.62. I am trying to "transition" my learnings to date from the .22LR over to the 7.62 NATO and take 7.62 up to 600yards. For me the real milestone I finally reached is understand at least 80% or so about how to use my scopes. This changed me from a "guessing" shooter to a "calculating" shooter and since I'm a math major, this phase is suiting me fine. I know there will always be guessing, like with the wind, but having some number crunching as part of the activity adds comfort :).

I've averaged paying about 9 cents a round for my AM22 versus 99 cents per round for HSM 7.62 SMK175gr and same price (roughly) for SMK 168gr. I still have not finally decide which bullet to standardize on. In theory, the 175 would improve the picture between 800 and 100 yards. But if I decide I don't want to shoot this rifle beyond 800 yards then the 168gr might be better, slightly higher MV = slightly less drop over much of that distance. Perhaps the 175gr rounds are best for bolt guns trying to go >800 which is where these rounds reach the transonic area. But .22LR availability is a problem. I ordered a box of 325 from midway 4 weeks ago and I still haven't received it, it is still backordered.
I have one box of 325 and also about 200 CCI and Eley subsonice rounds, which I only use for special purposes, but I want to replace my box of AM22 before I shoot it, hence .22LR is suspended for now.

If I really get tired of not being able to get .22LR I will go for a pellet gun. Shooting pellet gun out 200-250yards will be "long range shooting" and offer many of the same problems that need to be solved by larger systems.

But I'm a believer in learning to shoot with sub-caliber systems and then graduating upward. It makes a lot of financial sense. Which big guns to shoot is one discussion, how to learn to shoot is another, IMHO.
 
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[If you want a good crash course in marksmanship, go see a Marine Corps recruiter.]

+1

And still lots of practical experience after your initial training.

Another option for some intensive training would be to talk to a Navy recruiter about SEALs.

Mike
 
Their spotting scopes aren't good enough to resolve .223 bullet holes at 300 yards
That's hard to believe, in general.
My spotting scope, an olde non-weather proof Redfield 25-40x-57 can resolve .22LR bullet holes in white paper at 325 yards and least in good+ visibility. Now in precipitation or low light, no, I have to walk to the target. But if the sun is shining and the wind isn't vibrating the spotting scope and the shadows aren't wrong, then, I can see .22LR at 325 yards. So, seems like this should be possible in San Diego also!?


== switching topics ==

As to bipod being an extra skill ... if so then why isn't "off the ruck" an extra skill? My guess is "loading the bipod" is the extra skill, but it seems to be worth learning and not too hard to get the idea. Maybe a bit harder to make it second nature. But in the long run worth it because it provides a better "ranson rest" approximation.
 
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OP,

You can learn everything important to good shooting with an M4 or M16A4 using the as issued BDC irons, and an M1 sling. Learning from such a platform will actually reveal secrets to good shooting which are not given up to the shooter who initiates his journey with a scoped rifle and bipod.

Could not have said it better myself!

Carpenters learn hand tools first before moving to power tools for a reason... Iron sights sights first then onto optical scopes.... Fundamentals in order to build the foundation which to build upon.
 
Consider a Centurion or High Caliber Sales RECCE rifle upper or a .308 LMT, GAP built rifle or the like. A bolt gun will be more accurate, a semi more versatile. Clearly go for an 18" stainless 1:7 twist barrel if you build a 5.56 A Geiselle SAA-E trigger merits looking into. This is a Mk12 Mod01 that is solid out to 600. I have shot it out to 1200 yards, but it is hit and miss after 900 yards. If you want a good crash course in marksmanship, go see a Marine Corps recruiter. Or follow the links above.

What tripod setup is that?

Looks interesting.

The tripod head to rifle interface, in particular.

25428d1388475736-how-learn-precision-shooting-p1010229.jpg
 
Shooting 600 on steel is not a problem at all, hitting it or calling hits. Here is a video of me shooting a 8" plate that is 3/8" AR500 hanging at 500 yards with mine and you can see and hear all the hits. Yes I missed the 4th shot but I wasnt exactly trying my hardest with the iScope on the rifle. Just follow the links and practice the fundamentals and you will start seeing results.

[video=youtube;x-NGhCG-pMc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-NGhCG-pMc[/video]
 
How to learn precision shooting?

Carpenters learn hand tools first before moving to power tools for a reason... Iron sights sights first then onto optical scopes.... Fundamentals in order to build the foundation which to build upon.
Why must one first learn to use iron sights? Are iron sights a 'fundamental' for the use of optics? If so, how?
 
Why must one first learn to use iron sights? Are iron sights a 'fundamental' for the use of optics? If so, how?

Coming from a competition pistol background I can answer this straight away with the fact that it is far harder to align a front sight with a rear sight with a distant target than it is to align a round dot inside a round tube onto a distant target. so it is better to learn the harder task and then transfer the knowledge to the easier task. for proof I can say that after I distinguished in pistol I mounted a dot on several pistols and my scores went up significantly. that is a definite fact in pistol. in rifle I can say that learning to shoot service rifle to the level of being Distinguished and then transferring that knowledge to a scoped rifle is also far easier, in the area of fundamentals. Fundamentals are sight alignment and trigger control, seems like people always want to change courses of fire, or target size or stalking or something to change the topic from fundamentals.

seems like most people just want to get on target as fast as possible, then get in the middle as fast as possible, then justify using a scope instead of learning fundamentals using iron sights by saying "well everybody uses scopes so why shouldn't I?" or something to that effect. All I can say is come on out to a NRA competition and use some irons, and while you're at it a sling, and tell me it isn't harder, and because it is harder then it makes you a better marksman. Just like working harder in training makes you bleed less in war.

I would like to see a recruit at MCRD ask his DI why he should learn on irons when he'll be using a ACOG in the fleet. I would pay money to see R.Lee Ermey answer that one.
 
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How to learn precision shooting?

X count,

I take your point, but if the fundamentals are the same, as you say, then there's no need to learn them with irons in order to be able to achieve them with a scope.

I don't need to first learn to shoot 2700 on order to graduate to IPSC, and I don't need to first learn a NRA discipline to graduate to practical precision rifle.

Achieving the difficulty level of a specific sport discipline doesn't necessarily make you a better practical shooter. What it does is give you a fluency with the fundamentals that should make it easier for you to transition between disciplines.

And if only the military did teach recruits how to shoot... But, currently, the standards are a joke and no one must properly learn the fundamentals in basic in order to graduate to an ACOG in fleet. In fact, the opposite is true: training aids, like a Horus reticle, are being favored by line people who don't have experience using a Mil dot reticle.
 
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