Sidearms & Scatterguns Getting back into handguns; realistic/good accuracy at distance question

[TheGerman]

Have recently been on a carbine and handgun kick and again today went out to just pound out handgun rounds. I've knocked some of the dust off but am now getting to the point where I need some tips so I can set realistic milestones/goals and not just shoot aimlessly at paper.

A few questions:

- What distance should I start at, and what size group (say 10 rounds) is very good ; I've been shooting at 15 yards, standing, with a Sig P226 and can sometimes get them within the 2 inch shoot and see and then sometimes it goes to shit.
- What size groupings (10 round) would be considered very good for 5 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards
- At what point should I start going further back? When my groups are consistent in the 'very good' size for the distance?

After I get the groupings down, what do you practice next as far as dynamic/combat shooting? Multiple plates at different distances, few shots per each?

 

[tomcfc11]

if you are shooting for self defense get a man sized target and take your 50 rnd ammo box and trace a spine box from the neck to the belly (about 2 box lengths) If you can stay in the spine box shooting drills then you are doing well. One trick is to start your day shooting for accuracy on a 1/2" or 1" dot. slow fire and try to make good shots. do this at the beginning and end of your range session. While doing drills try to keep all in the spine box and 4"x4" head box. start pushing your speed until you drop some rounds. Slow down and then work back up. When I shoot pistols and ARs for training I like to shoot from 3 to 50 yrds. As far as shooting a good small group start at 3 yards on a small 1/2" and work your way back to a yardage where you start missing. This is where you want to work the most. I always try to have a plan when I shoot. make the most of your range time. good luck and let us know how you're progressing. hope this helps

 

[sageebr24]

As far as pistols go in conceal carry most of the time if you ever encounter an issue when you will need your weapon ( which we all hope we never do ) it will be inside 7 yards. You should always practice that range or inside that range. If you try to shoot at distances to far you will have to shoot much slower to make accurate hits since we take practice into the real world with us if you are use to shooting at a slower pace and you actually need to use your weapon you probably will not use it at the actual speed you are capable of at the distance you will be at. So if you practice at closer ranges you will get used to shooting faster. You can still shoot at distances just to hone your skills but most of it should come at distances you are mor likely to be faced with.

 

[LRDD]

As far as pistols go in conceal carry most of the time if you ever encounter an issue when you will need your weapon ( which we all hope we never do ) it will be inside 7 yards. You should always practice that range or inside that range. If you try to shoot at distances to far you will have to shoot much slower to make accurate hits since we take practice into the real world with us if you are use to shooting at a slower pace and you actually need to use your weapon you probably will not use it at the actual speed you are capable of at the distance you will be at. So if you practice at closer ranges you will get used to shooting faster. You can still shoot at distances just to hone your skills but most of it should come at distances you are mor likely to be faced with.

+1. If you are training for ccw train the way you will likely have to fight.

 

[TheGerman]

+1. If you are training for ccw train the way you will likely have to fight.

Mainly for this and the sidearm is always on my gear belt when I am shooting in the desert regardless. So if it would ever be 'used' it would be from my CCW holster or the Safariland holster on my belt. I had already planned on incorporating the draw into the equation as well as random snap caps and reloads.

Right now, I am at the point I want to knock the rust off. I see above its mentioned at 3 yds to hit a 1/2 inch piece; what about at 5/10/15? Just trying to benchmark my consistency before getting fancy with a holster/reloads because it will only exponentially makes things more confusing if trying those prior to being able to trust that I can hit the target.

 

[exracr]

depends on what you intend on using the firearm for? Self Defense or plinking?

Plinker I have is a Ruger single 10 .22 cal........ i shoot broken pieces of clay targets easily at 25m range..... can hit full clays all day long at 50m range! I love the sites on that gun; and with having 10 shots you don't have to reload. I just have to keep my brother from trying to "adopt" it!

 

[tomcfc11]

The German, work that 1/2" until you miss then regroup and go farther. I understand what people are saying about training. You will fall back on your training in a shooting situation. A lot of people that have been in shootings will tell you they can't remember details of what happened. Train as you fight.

 

[Jethro21]

I preach the importance of dry fire practice to every officer I train. Dry firing- working on the fudamentals of trigger control and sight alignment- is a great way to shrink your group size.

I don't measure groups for handgun shooting, but my expectation for myself is to keep all my rounds within the head box (approx 4"x4") from 15 yards and in on any drill I run. Obviously if you begin to push yourself speed wise your groups will open up.

If someone is planning on carrying concealed I teach this- work on the fundamentals until you can keep all your rounds inside a threat (person) target in every drill you run. That means drawing from concealment, moving and reload drills. When you do that, move back and repeat. There are no atta boys for missed rounds in life. I teach that each missed round is an innocent life taken and a certain lawsuit.

 

[Graham]

Getting back into handguns; realistic/good accuracy at distance question

Lots of cliches so far. Not much hard info.

 

[1time]

Getting back into handguns; realistic/good accuracy at distance question

For a defensive pistol if you can make head shots out to 15 and center of mass shots out to 25 I would be more concerned about working on speed. Most defense shooting the victim is behind the curve and they develop quickly.

To add another cliche, you can't miss fast enough to win but you can hit slow enough to lose.

Movement while shooting and reloading and target transitions are also good skills to work on.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

Apples and oranges with the only over lap being a means to an end.

'Groups' are merely a measure of a whole lot of other things that all boil down to doing things correctly and consistently. Sure, shoot a few groups at X distance every now and again.

Practical shooting isn't about groups. The shooting part of it is about speed and accuracy (but that is just the shooting part). So in the name of accuracy - sure, groups have a place.

What do I do to practice? MSU (Make Shit Up)

Basic thoughts
- Run the rig I carry, and dress in the manner I would normally dress
- Shoot at a pace that yields no worse than 50% A and 50% C, if I am shooting 100% A's (when I don't absolutely have to) I need to pickup the pace
- Work equally on freestyle (two hands), strong hand / weak hand only
- Distance - from less than arm's length to 100 yards
- Movement
- Low light / no light
- Seated in a vehicle with seat belt on
- From the ground up
- Seated at a table
- Lots more, but this is enough to get you thinking about it

Bottom line is this, practical shooting is less about accuracy and more about gun handling (your chops) and the ability to think and perform at a level necessary to accomplish a given set of tasks as rapidly and effectively as possible i.e. - it all counts, and you get there by constantly putting the work in.

If you haven't already - get some quality training. Minimum - find an IDPA or IPSC group and start reading books and articles from noted trainers. Review AARs from Civi and LE contacts that went bad. Keep them in mind as you set up COFs. Dry fire and work on your chops - daily. 10 minutes a day, every day of gun handling (be safe) trumps an hour once a week. You need to get to the point where your gun handling skills are the strongest point of your game, it is a safety thing. Example of what I am saying: Think about the mechanics of a draw from the front seat of your car - gotta get the car stopped, in park, belt off (with your weak hand), simultaneously (and strong hand only) get your cover garment out of the way and make the draw, finger out of the trigger guard, don't sweep the passenger, don't flag yourself, muzzle clears the steering wheel, simultaneously left hand opens the door, left foot kicks the door open and holds it at the inside corner, roll out as minimally as possible from the A pillar (second vehicle about to ram you?), make the hits, un-ass if necessary and work the crowd (mindful of the vehicle coming up from behind that could clean you and your door off). See where this is going? Practical shooting is the sum of everything, and if one can not do all of the other work - ain't nobody gonna get a chance to showcase what an awesome group shooter they are.

 

[Jethro21]

Group size will differ based on how you are shooting. If you want to shoot bullseye matches, shooting tight groups is important. If you are shooting to train for self defense scenarios, grouping within a certain target area are sufficient. When I am instructing and my officers are shooting tight groups, I tell them to speed up and push themselves. When they get to the point that they are missing target areas, slow down.

Graham said no hard info yet...

Again, dry fire, not just at the range but at home (safely) is a certain way to improve. I would add that if you have a shooting partner and some dummy rounds, have your partner mix dummy rounds into your magazine. Your partner should stand to your side and watch each trigger pull. When you hit the dummy round your partner will see if your sights dip or you jerk etc. The shooter then unloads and performs 5 perfect dry fires and then continues the drill.

In my opinion the most important part of pistol shooting is sight alignment, with trigger control being second. Concentrating on front sight focus during the entire trigger press is how accurate shooting happens. Even if we slap the trigger, as long as our sights are aligned we can be accurate.

 

[c1steve]

Static shooting groups helps, but just a little. You need speed with reasonable accuracy more than anything. You should be able to draw and make three accurate shots within about 2.5 seconds. I just took a class, and learned very much about what I was missing.

It really is about prepping the trigger on the press out, having your sights fully aligned part way out, and squeezing the last half pound on the trigger. Then use the recoil to help with prepping the trigger, so that additional shots only require .5 lbs pull and are extremely close together. A quality class will do wonders...

I would recommend Practical Fundamentals class by Operation Specific Training, or a handgun class by Alias Training. I am sure there are many, many other classes that would be excellent.

 

[300WSM]

ask this guy...

Glock 20 10mm long range shooting at 175 yards - YouTube

 

[steve123]

Have recently been on a carbine and handgun kick and again today went out to just pound out handgun rounds. I've knocked some of the dust off but am now getting to the point where I need some tips so I can set realistic milestones/goals and not just shoot aimlessly at paper.

A few questions:

- What distance should I start at, and what size group (say 10 rounds) is very good ; I've been shooting at 15 yards, standing, with a Sig P226 and can sometimes get them within the 2 inch shoot and see and then sometimes it goes to shit.
- What size groupings (10 round) would be considered very good for 5 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards
- At what point should I start going further back? When my groups are consistent in the 'very good' size for the distance?

After I get the groupings down, what do you practice next as far as dynamic/combat shooting? Multiple plates at different distances, few shots per each?

If I were to guess on the accuracy of your Sig, with it being shot off a rest, it's probably capable of around 2-2.5" at 25Y. So if you can shoot 2" at 15Y for most of your ten shot's that's pretty good shooting.

Accuracy wise...

Taking your time at 5Y most of the bullets should be touching, 10Y 1.5-2" and 15Y 2-3".

Practice at any reasonable distance you want for the fun of it. It's interesting to see where the POI is at different distances. Chest hits on a IPSC target aren't that hard at 50Y once you know where to hold and last spring a friend and I were hitting my 2/3 IPSC steel plate at 100Y half the time with our combat pistols. I'm sure we could have done better if we didn't have to aim out in no mans land to hit the plate.

IPSC or IDPA cardboard targets are great to do drills and practice on. If you can find a group of local pistol shooters and/or some pistol comps to go to you will get a good idea how you compare to the rest of the guys.

Here's a FYI for you. Get a decent air pistol and practice with that. You'll learn "follow through" which is one of the most important aspects of accuracy.

I brought my Steyr LP5 air pistol to a centerfire pistol range just to kill some time because I had arrived a day early for a Tactical rifle match. A lot of the guys there were blinking at me like a frog in a hale storm and wondering why on earth I would bring a "as one guy put it-a BB gun to the range". Being curious, a few of them came over and watched as I put 5 pellets on a steel plate that would fit under a nickel at 20Y. They freaked out a little bit and in a few minutes there was a line of guys wanting to try it, LOL. That weekend I won the combat pistol event. As always I attribute any skills I have to practice with airguns.

 

[40xs]

Challenge yourself! I see guys come into the indoor ranges and put up b-27 silohuette targets and run them out to 5 yds and commence to put 50 rounds rapid fire in a 20 inch area and feel like they have done something. In fact all they did was waste ammo. When I practice I sometimes turn the target around and place 1 inch sticky dots on the target and run it out to 15 yds. or I will shoot a hole, and then shoot at the hole. I like to see people's faces when I run a hostage style target out to 25 yds. and then shoot the bad guy in the head with my .45. there is truth in the saying, " aim small, miss small". another truism, "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast". Speed will come with practice, but first work on your accuracy. I mean "pin point" accuracy. Shoot a hole, and then shoot the hole. Then you will be learning something.

 

[Unknown]

Defensive pistol work is a combination of speed, and accuracy. Saying to train as you fight is correct, but a bit simplistic. The more varied exercises you add into your training the better. You will need to train for clearing malfunctions, shooting one handed (both sides), shooting while holding, pushing or pulling someone out of the way. Think of what is the lethal area for self defense shooting..heart/lungs/spine. If you can easily keep all your rounds inside an 8" circle FAST, then do something to make that exercise a little more difficult. Either move back, do it one handed, use the other hand, do it after clearing a malfunction.

You can randomly load a dummy round into your loose ammo, load your magazines so that you won't have any idea when you will need to clear a dud. This will also show whether you are flinching or not when you pull the trigger on a dummy round. The more malfunctions you can learn to clear, the better. Then practice fighting from the ground...on your knees, from your back, and so on.

Practice moving to cover so that it becomes a habit. You should always be looking for someting to put between you and the threat.

Although many shooting classes such as Clint Smith's Thunder ranch, or Gunsite seem expensive, the amount you learn in such a short amount of time makes them cost efficient. Having instructors that are available from a nationally recognized trainer will dramatically reduce your learning curve, and save you many thousands of rounds. It will also help keep you from developing bad habits that you may have to later unlearn, so you can learn to do things right.

Teaching people to unlearn habits that they have practiced wrong for a very long time is sometimes quite difficult. Especially if the shooter thinks they already know it all, and therefore prefer showing the instructor how they do things. I'm not suggesting that you would be like that, but it is something that most experienced instructors have run into, and it can be damned hard to teach those people anything other than what they insist is "the way I have always done it".

P.S.
With all that having been said, darned near any practice on the range beats the hell out of sitting at home on the couch, or on an internet site merely discussing shooting ad infinitum.

 

[clmayfield]

At 15 yards, a good 10 shot group is under 2.5" and a good 20 shot group is about 3". This is shot as slowly as you care to go. There are two philosophies of shooting. Some say start fast and try to get more accurate. Some say start slow and accurate and speed up. The latter approach seems to make more sense to me since the way you achieve good accuracy is though good form.

Once you have good form, I think it is easier to just try and execute the same way, only faster. If you are already going fast, how do you tighten your groups up? Slow down is usually the answer.

I disagree with those who say you don't look at group size. That is how you tell if you have proper form. Proper form should yield an accurate shot, which will yield a tight group.

I will say this, though. I have sessions where I just work on recoil management and don't worry about accuracy at all. I just feel the pulse of the gun and figure out how to get it back on target quickly. I dry fire a lot, but the problem with dry fire is that it does not teach you recoil management. Recoil management is my weakest point as a shooter simply because I dry fire a lot and you can only learn recoil management through live fire. With pistol, recoil management is the key to speed. And that means figuring out the version of the isosceles that works best for you.

One thing I do is set up 5 bowling pin silhouettes at 15 yards and cycle from pin to pin seeing how fast I can go. Fill up a couple of mags and alternate pins doing mag changes until you run out of ammo. If I am doing well, I drop about 1% of my shots at 15 yards. If I am doing poorly, I might drop 5% of my shots or more doing this drill. I do this drill because I have a 15 yard bowling pin match I do, but I have found that it has helped me immensely versus just seeing how quickly a can pound the same target 20 times in a row.

 

[reuben.goldberg]

If you really want to set it in motion, look for an IPSC or USPSA club in your area, join up and hang with the boys. Great way to learn from traditionally helpful folks, with an occasional dose of adrenalin to boot. Add a timer to your gear bag. No pressure to compete until you feel ready.

 

[Weird one]

Hey German, try this, it is what I do and it seems to work for me. Practice at long range, I use 150 yds-6" target, take your time and try to make hits, I won't kid you, I miss more than I hit but if I was actually shooting at a silouette target I would hit everytime now with ease. Then when you shoot close shoot for the first bullet hole. Everytime I renew my CCW and fire rapid they tell me that I will definitly have an overpenetration problem but the small groups are pretty cool. Good luck, have fun and practice practice practice. Oh, by the way, don't shoot smiley faces on your targets... they think you're just showing off.