Southwest Ammo Reman 77 smk VS. Black Hills 77 smk 5.56

[BigJohn141]

Anyone ever done a side by side comparison of these two loads? I was just wondering because if not I might do one if there is interest. I have a brand new case of Black Hills and a 200 round box of SWA "seconds" that I am going to be trying out in a few days. Both use the same bullet and claim the same 2750fps from a 20" barrel. I will be using my home built 20" AR that is capable of well under 1/2 MOA @ 100 with hand loads if I can still drive the thing lol.

 

[AZ2000]

I have done some tests with my 77 SMK and Black Hills 77 grn OTM's through my 18", and would appreciate seeing your results, if you get a chance.

 

[RTH1800]

Interest...

 

[ArmyJerry]

me too

 

[BigJohn141]

Looks like a comparison will be in the works then. I am running a Vortex 5-15 HS on it right now but will probably swap the 6-24 PST on it for test purposes just so I cant blame the glass. It will be a Compass Lake match chamber Krieger 1:7.7 20" that loves the heavy stuff, shot off a bipod and either a rear bag or monopod. Chrono results will of course be included for a true speed comparison. Now I just have to wait for a decent day to do this.

My only question to you guys... Mag fed or single fed? I know I can squeeze better results one at a time but who shoots a AR single fed? Might just do it both ways for fun.

 

[rideHPD]

I ran both SWA 77gr (not the run'n'gun) and brown box BH MK262 MOD0 in my homebuilt AR with MK12 contract barrel from Centurion Arms. The SWA stuff shoots lights out, I'm talking sub .25 moa when I don't yank the trigger or drop the hammer out of my breathing cycle (still have a ways to go with my S/A fundamentals). The brown box wasn't as good, but I haven't shot it in a while, and I'm going to retry it now with my new perspective on S/A shooting. I'm hoping to before week's end, I'll post pics.

The one issue was with the SWA loads, as I blew a primer 2nd to last time I shot, and I'm seeing some other pressure signs now, like gas flow around the primer cup (blackened like a blown primer but the primer still seated). Didn't have this earlier, and my brass is getting beaten to shit. Really need to get an adj gas block.

 

[Laseredge]

I have some older SWA 77 gr. in new European brass. It shoots as well as BH Mk262 (sub MOA out of 2 Mk12's), but is @50 FPS slower than the Mk262.

 

[Shoottothrill]

The only problem here is that unless they have pretty much the same rifle as you do they won't get the same results.

Example: Took my buddies Kac Mod 1 556 to the range the other day with four different brands of match ammo. He did not like his results with Lake City 62 grain green tip, basically cause its shit ammo that only shoot 2moa or so at 100, at least in his rifle. So he bought FGMM 77 gr., FGMM 69 Grain, HPR 69 gr. and one other, can't remember what. The only one that made him smile was the FGMM 69 gr., it shot under an 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Pretty good for a 16" light barreled ar-15 with a 6x scope. All the other match ammo was good ammo, it just didnt shoot that great in his particular rifle. Other AR-15's probable would have loved the other stuff. Just really hard to say what ammo a given rifle will like till ya do what he did and try it all till ya find one that works.

 

[BigJohn141]

The whole point of this is not to say that you need to shoot this or that from your rifle, I was just going to compare two very similar off the shelf rounds. I happen to know that my rifle likes 77gr SMKs but that has no bearing on whether you should shoot it. Oh tell your buddy to try 40gr vmax Fiocchi or 75gr BTHP Hornady, Ive had good results with both from a 16" 1:7 Colt 6920

Anyway, was a real nice day today but that damn job thing got in the way. Hopefully I can get this to happen this weekend.

 

[rideHPD]

The only problem here is that unless they have pretty much the same rifle as you do they won't get the same results.

Example: Took my buddies Kac Mod 1 556 to the range the other day with four different brands of match ammo. He did not like his results with Lake City 62 grain green tip, basically cause its shit ammo that only shoot 2moa or so at 100, at least in his rifle. So he bought FGMM 77 gr., FGMM 69 Grain, HPR 69 gr. and one other, can't remember what. The only one that made him smile was the FGMM 69 gr., it shot under an 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards. Pretty good for a 16" light barreled ar-15 with a 6x scope. All the other match ammo was good ammo, it just didnt shoot that great in his particular rifle. Other AR-15's probable would have loved the other stuff. Just really hard to say what ammo a given rifle will like till ya do what he did and try it all till ya find one that works.

This really. The BH 262 is definitely consistent, it's not that it's ammo that can't do better than 1 MOA. It's match grade, not Remington "Match" grade.

 

[leid]

OP,
The BHA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK MK 262 MOD 1 tactical loading & the SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading are a couple of excellent choices. Both are very accurate loading but may have slightly different application for you. The following may help with understanding what makes each load tick. The SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading has a slight accuracy advantage, just a 0.1" or two at 100yds., over the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 tactical loading in the 18" 1x7.7 SS Krieger/5.56MM CLE barrel used. And the BHA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK AMU MATCH loading (MV 2746 FPS at 80F) will shoot just a little tighter that the SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading in my rifle with both grouping 0.5 MOA or better at 100yds in good conditions off a proper benchrest. Any of these 77gr. SMK loadings should shoot very well so it probably comes down to what your specific barrel prefers. 02.

The BHA MK 262 MOD 1 cartridge is loaded with a spherical propellant to get the most MV out of this tactical load.----MV 2825 at 80F/SD 24.43/MV at (+135F) - (-10F)=Thermal Stability: 2875-2719=165 FPS
The SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK cartridge is loaded with a Hodgdon EXTREME propellant for exceptional thermal stability.MV 2744 at 80F/SD 11.43/MV at (+135F) - (-10F)=Thermal Stability: 2746-2728= 18 FPS

 

[AZ2000]

BigJohn141
"My only question to you guys... Mag fed or single fed? I know I can squeeze better results one at a time but who shoots a AR single fed? Might just do it both ways for fun."

If you only do one test, Mag fed.

 

[BigJohn141]

OP,
The BHA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK MK 262 MOD 1 tactical loading & the SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading are a couple of excellent choices. Both are very accurate loading but may have slightly different application for you. The following may help with understanding what makes each load tick. The SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading has a slight accuracy advantage, just a 0.1" or two at 100yds., over the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 tactical loading in the 18" 1x7.7 SS Krieger/5.56MM CLE barrel used. And the BHA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK AMU MATCH loading (MV 2746 FPS at 80F) will shoot just a little tighter that the SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK loading in my rifle with both grouping 0.5 MOA or better at 100yds in good conditions off a proper benchrest. Any of these 77gr. SMK loadings should shoot very well so it probably comes down to what your specific barrel prefers. 02.

The BHA MK 262 MOD 1 cartridge is loaded with a spherical propellant to get the most MV out of this tactical load.----MV 2825 at 80F/SD 24.43/MV at (+135F) - (-10F)=Thermal Stability: 2875-2719=165 FPS
The SWA 5.56MM 77gr. SMK cartridge is loaded with a Hodgdon EXTREME propellant for exceptional thermal stability.MV 2744 at 80F/SD 11.43/MV at (+135F) - (-10F)=Thermal Stability: 2746-2728= 18 FPS

Awesome, thanks for the info! Is the Black Hills AMU stuff available to the public by chance?

 

[archad]

I'm not sure but I think SWA uses IMR 8208 BR in there 77 grain loading. I use 23.8 grains of 8208 and get great results.

 

[BigJohn141]

That's good to know too. I've used the 8208 before and really liked it

 

[JBomb]

Does anyone know if the SWA 5.56 77 grain SMK load has crimped primers?

 

[leid]

OP,
No steady supply of the BHA AMU MATCH load to us civvy shooters. Pretty much like it was with M118LR 7.62MM cartridge from '95 thru the early-mid 2000s.

 

[archad]

I used to Varget in .223/.308 until I discovered IMR 8208. The big thing for myself is how easy 8208 meters vs Varget when loading on a progressive
press and 8208 is a very temperature stable powder. I have shot it at 5F and 100F.

 

[BigJohn141]

OP,
No steady supply of the BHA AMU MATCH load to us civvy shooters. Pretty much like it was with M118LR 7.62MM cartridge from '95 thru the early-mid 2000s.

Dang, figured that. I have shot some Atlanta Arms AMU loads that did pretty good but not enough to justify the extra time or money it took to get it.

 

[leid]

The AA 77gr. AMU load is supposed to be smoking-fast because of the SMP (St. Marks Propellant) used. Never gotten my hands on any to test. In addition to short range & LR accuracy, I would be very interested to see what level of thermal stability the SMP exhibits. I have a sneaky suspicion it might be on the high side like AA2520. Unconfirmed rumor has it that AMU quit using the AA 77gr. load for some reason but is still using the BHA AMU load. Like the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 tactical loading, the older BHA AMU load used a spherical double based propellant verified by disassembly. Not sure about the current lots.

 

[tipper]

don't tell anyone, what every the special of the day is, is what goes in the ammo.

 

[rideHPD]

SWA doesn't crimp primers, I don't know why any civvy not shooting an F/A would crimp.

 

[leid]

In the past, SWA has loaded at least some of their 5.56MM 77gr. SMK, 5.56MM 75gr. OTM, & 5.56MM 70gr. TSX loads in new LC brass with crimped primers. AFAIK, new 5.56MM LC brass is normally primed/crimped at LCAAP prior to shipment to ammunition manufacturers using LC brass. But new/never-primed LC 5.56MM brass was available to handloaders prior to the current shortage. AFAIK, WCC does the same thing. But with all the recent shortages, ammunition manufacturers are scrambling to keep quality brass coming in to manufacture their products. Jeff Hoffman has stated that BHA is now forced to use expensive but very high quality Swiss RUAG brass for some of their loadings. The good news is that SWA recently announced they had new LC brass back in hand so ask SWA about crimped primers. Crimped primers in 5.56MM pressure ammunition are cheap but worthwhile insurance IMO. When a primer blows, Mr. Murphy will give it the maximum opportunity to get jammed in the FCG. I finally checked that box a couple years back.

 

[BigJohn141]

Well it warmed up to 75 today and I might get some chrono data. Due to the 25mph full value wind I don't think I will test accuracy today.

 

[BigJohn141]

Well the wind cut out just before dark so I did get a little play time in. Honestly both loads performed great in my rifle, better than I can shoot. I will edit this post with the chrono data when I get home but the BHA is a little faster. Here are a couple of groups that I shot.

The best with the SWA load .39 MOA at 100 yards


The best with the BHA .36 MOA at 100 yards


both targets are 1" grid

 

[BigJohn141]

Basic chrono data:

Shot from a 20" 1:7.7 Krieger barrel with a Compass Lake match chamber at 70 degrees, 20% humidity, 29.83" baro, and 1950'

Both were 5 shot strings

Southwest Ammo 77gr SMK reman seconds
ES: 43fps
SD: 16fps
AVERAGE: 2777fps

Black Hills 77gr OTM New
ES: 47fps
SD: 19fps
AVERAGE: 2808fps

Both loads beat the advertised 2750fps from my rifle and both had no major zero shift at 100 yards. If this was between the normal SWA stuff then I would say it's a toss up but considering seconds are about half the price, it wins hands down.

 

[leid]

Op,
Good shooting & good info. I did expect BHA MK 262 MOD 1 to make a little better MV in your 20" Krieger/CLE barrel though. How did the AA 77gr. AMU load compare to these loads as far as MV & group size in your rifle?

 

[BigJohn141]

I will have to look and see if I can find the chrono data for it. It's been a couple of years since I shot it.

 

[Shoottothrill]

Great shooting. Like to see a pic of the rifle.

 

[BigJohn141]

This is the rifle, just a little something I threw together in my garage. Of course it has the 5-15 in this pic but it's wearing the 6-24 now.

 

[BigJohn141]

Op,
Good shooting & good info. I did expect BHA MK 262 MOD 1 to make a little better MV in your 20" Krieger/CLE barrel though. How did the AA 77gr. AMU load compare to these loads as far as MV & group size in your rifle?

I guess I never got around to chrono the AMU load, I have a dope on it but no speed. I can tell you that a batch of BHA white box averaged 2766fps and was 3.2 mils at 500 and I have the AMU load at 2.9mils at 500 in very similar conditions a few days apart so it was going a good bit faster.

 

[leid]

I guess I never got around to chrono the AMU load, I have a dope on it but no speed. I can tell you that a batch of BHA white box averaged 2766fps and was 3.2 mils at 500 and I have the AMU load at 2.9mils at 500 in very similar conditions a few days apart so it was going a good bit faster.

Thanks for looking it up.

 

[rideHPD]

In the past, SWA has loaded at least some of their 5.56MM 77gr. SMK, 5.56MM 75gr. OTM, & 5.56MM 70gr. TSX loads in new LC brass with crimped primers. AFAIK, new 5.56MM LC brass is normally primed/crimped at LCAAP prior to shipment to ammunition manufacturers using LC brass. But new/never-primed LC 5.56MM brass was available to handloaders prior to the current shortage. AFAIK, WCC does the same thing. But with all the recent shortages, ammunition manufacturers are scrambling to keep quality brass coming in to manufacture their products. Jeff Hoffman has stated that BHA is now forced to use expensive but very high quality Swiss RUAG brass for some of their loadings. The good news is that SWA recently announced they had new LC brass back in hand so ask SWA about crimped primers. Crimped primers in 5.56MM pressure ammunition are cheap but worthwhile insurance IMO. When a primer blows, Mr. Murphy will give it the maximum opportunity to get jammed in the FCG. I finally checked that box a couple years back.

I just gave myself a bit of an education in primer crimping, and I was not aware of the circumferential crimp, only the aggressive stab crimps I have seen LC use. It was also my understanding that SWA uses once-fired LC brass, or at least that's what mine appears to be with the powder burns. But do they really put in the effort into crimping or just ream/swage out the crimp but leave behind the witness marks from the crimping? Would be something to ask. What kind of crimping did the loads you saw that were crimped have? I'm quite curious now to find out what mine are as I was planning on reloading the LC brass I've been amassing.

 

[leid]

The new LC brass in the 5.56MM SWA loads I used showed annular primer crimping not the newer LC staked crimp.

 

[rideHPD]

Rgr, so just another thing to add to brass prep