Anybody ever run an AR with NO a buffer , only the spring?

[JJones75]

at the range today a guy was having some issues with his home built AR and when he popped the upper open from the rear pin the buffer spring shot out. He has been running it with no buffer in the tube only the spring!!!
the issue he was having was poor extraction.

seems like a really bad idea and I can't help but wonder what if any damage this can cause to the weapon?

 

[rjacobs]

Poor extraction because the weight of the buffer keeps the action locked long enough to reduce pressures so the extractor isn't trying to hold the case rim and extract under 50k psi of pressure. My guess is the extractor was repeatedly jumping the rim of his case and tearing the shit out of them.

 

[hermosabeach]

The pin that retains the buffer and spring might have also had some unusual contact with the tail of the bolt.

This reminds me of an accident I witnessed years ago. A car flew past me in the #2 lane. It ended up under a van. The owner had changed the brakes but was not aware that he needed to bleed the lines.

 

[mikenewgun87]

uhhhhhh wut an idiot....

 

[BIPMaster]

Never heard of anyone shooting without the buffer before.

 

[wakajawaka]

Face palm...

 

[ORD]

What a @#$%ING dumbass!!

 

[George Az]

It could do some significant damage to both upper and lower receiver. I would be looking for hairline cracks.....

I hesitate to call him an outright dumbass, while I never did that, I have done some other stupid stuff.....I cannot believe he shot it more than once though..that's on him!

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

I've ran my 11.5" M16 with 3 springs as I don't believe the M231 has a buffer, and most of those run well as long as you can get the mags to keep up. My Beta will not, it peters out about 950-1k rpm, some of my 30's have issue starting about 1050-1100 but my 20's have never been outran,... yet.
My goal, to reach 1400-1500rpm, and it won't be done using a buffer at all.

 

[arnie19]

With out a buffer , the Key on the carrier could smack the back of the lower and put a big dent in it .I have seen this done even when a short buffer was used and should have had a longer one .

 

[TallShot]

I've ran my 11.5" M16 with 3 springs as I don't believe the M231 has a buffer, and most of those run well as long as you can get the mags to keep up. My Beta will not, it peters out about 950-1k rpm, some of my 30's have issue starting about 1050-1100 but my 20's have never been outran,... yet.
My goal, to reach 1400-1500rpm, and it won't be done using a buffer at all.

Huh?

 

[DavidAR10]

If I may, lots of pics:

M231 Firing Port Weapon Review *******56K MASSACRE!!!!!!!******* - AR15.COM

 

[Regalkismet]

What a @#$%ING dumbass!!

My thoughts exactly....

 

[bogeybrown]

That's a new one on me.
What I think a lot of us have seen at one point or another is forgetting to put the buffer assembly back in during cleaning and having that "awwww shit" when function checking and the BCG ends up wedged in the buffer tube.

 

[2ndamendfan]

What a @#$%ING dumbass!!

+2

 

[Arbiter]

I've ran my 11.5" M16 with 3 springs as I don't believe the M231 has a buffer, and most of those run well as long as you can get the mags to keep up. My Beta will not, it peters out about 950-1k rpm, some of my 30's have issue starting about 1050-1100 but my 20's have never been outran,... yet.
My goal, to reach 1400-1500rpm, and it won't be done using a buffer at all.

Huh?

Allow me to translate from machinegun jive, good sir.

"I've shot my 11.5" NFA registered M16 with three buffer springs, as I don't believe the M231 Port Firing Weapon possesses a buffer in its stock configuration, and most of those weapons run well as long as the bolt carrier group does not cycle faster than the magazine can feed the following round. My C-Products Beta 100rd Drum will not match the speed of the bolt, and fails to feed fast enough to prevent a jam, somewhere around a cyclical rate of 950-1000 rounds per minute. Some of my 30-round standard AR magazines have issues and begin to exhibit feeding problems at a rate of 1050-1100 rounds per minute, but my 20-round magazines have never been a problem at any cyclical rate I have yet been able to obtain. My goal is to modify my weapon to achieve a cyclical rate of 1400-1500 rounds per minute, and in order to achieve those speeds it will not use a buffer."

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Allow me to translate from machinegun jive, good sir.

"I've shot my 11.5" NFA registered M16 with three buffer springs, as I don't believe the M231 Port Firing Weapon possesses a buffer in its stock configuration, and most of those weapons run well as long as the bolt carrier group does not cycle faster than the magazine can feed the following round. My C-Products Beta 100rd Drum will not match the speed of the bolt, and fails to feed fast enough to prevent a jam, somewhere around a cyclical rate of 950-1000 rounds per minute. Some of my 30-round standard AR magazines have issues and begin to exhibit feeding problems at a rate of 1050-1100 rounds per minute, but my 20-round magazines have never been a problem at any cyclical rate I have yet been able to obtain. My goal is to modify my weapon to achieve a cyclical rate of 1400-1500 rounds per minute, and in order to achieve those speeds it will not use a buffer."

From an X Sumter guy to a present Hillsborough guy, thank you for the post interpretation. Hard to find a quality interpreter between the one round, an COD world's,... vs Elvis tinker's, that predate KCR, Sandy, Bama, an the like.

 

[Triggerf16]

I would closely QC check the rifle to make sure it is still safe to fire. As mentioned, the gas key on the bolt carrier will crash into the receiver ring at the back of the lower receiver during recoil. This damages the lower, and can damage the gas key. The timing will be off on the firing cycle (gas, extraction, brass pressure on chamber walls, etc) so the extractor will be ripping the case out of the chamber before gas pressure has dropped in the chamber, wrecking the brass rim, over stressing the extractor, and leaving the brass unsupported while still containing pressure. The Cam pin can potentially crash into the side of the upper receiver where it is relieved to allow the cam pin to rotate the bolt in the bolt carrier. This will scar/damage the upper. Lots of bad things happen without a buffer. The gas in the face/eyes through the charging handle area is not safe either.

 

[JJones75]

It didn't seem like he was having much issue other than the fail to extract every 4-5 round. I've seen him before and giung back Saturday so I may see him again. I'll throw an extra buffer in my box in case.
Kinda makes me wonder how often guys have issues with their weapon due to not being put together correctly.

 

[ipsick]

Well this item is getting close to running one without a buffer. Only weighs 0.6 oz. It's supposed to be used with an adjustable gas block.

UL AR15 RECOIL SYSTEM

 

[MikeInUtah]

And this is yet another reason to avoid public gun ranges... you never know what moron is next to you.

 

[JJones75]

Well this item is getting close to running one without a buffer. Only weighs 0.6 oz. It's supposed to be used with an adjustable gas block.

UL AR15 RECOIL SYSTEM

Yes this is very light but I don't think it will allow the bolt to "over travel" contacting the lower like not have any buffer would.
I'm going to the range this weekend , i'll try to offer some help if I see him

 

[usmcmk12]

WTF is the point?

 

[DavidAR10]

WTF is the point?

I gots to know.

Were you ever assigned Boss Hog of the Gallery or Scullery, in The Suck, while drooling over a mk12?
____________________________________________________

BTW, here's your 48hr pass:

Put the POTATO peeler down and look up 11 posts before your puke in the thread.

 

[tipper]

1400-1500 rounds per minute, can not be done by feeding mag into the rifle by hand

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

1400-1500 rounds per minute, can not be done by feeding mag into the rifle by hand

No it can't, but that ROF is attainable safely an reliably I believe, then I'll concentrate on speeding up the Beta. If a long 8mm can do 1200rpm and the M85 can spit out 50bmg brass at two different rates, surely a .223 can run faster. Some folks do it for the challenge, and what if. Never know when you may have to brake contact at a 7-11 or China-Mart.

M85 .50 Caliber machine gun

 

[tipper]

no no no you can not carry that much ammo, come on lets get real

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

no no no you can not carry that much ammo, come on lets get real

Maybe you need to do more pushup rep's?

 

[bschnzl]

If I may -

Regarding DavidAR10's excellent historical documentation of a discarded solution.

Having made the transition from "tanker" to "leg", I can tell you that mechanized logistics are exactly the opposite of LPC packing. I learned to hump a ruck as a dependent, unaware of human limitations. Later, I was always adding batteries and gadgets, as well as poggie bait to my load. Somehow, I was never around when the load weights were checked!

The mech guys load it if they think it might be useful. Better to have it and not need it... They don't check weights. Fully tracked vehicles are not effected by a few extra pounds.

So, if fed with a 90 round drum, the higher firing rate might be useful. The Bradley's were necessary, because there was no way an M-113 would keep up with an Abrams. Our understanding of Soviet tactics, in the 1980's, was that infantry would closely follow armor. That is: close enough to run a Sagger missile system. Therefore, a situation where a task force breaks through the "hard outer shell" of the "godless commie hoardes" and is set upon by masses of infantry was to be expected. The Soviet philosophy was to overwhelm with numbers. Hense, the firing ports.

The M321 is an interesting device. Alas, pitched battles are not expected any time soon. Nor has time occurred to fully explore the intended function - fortunately. The wisdom behind such solutions should be maintained, if only for intelligence value.

IMHO, and from the pics, the M321 does have a buffer, of sorts. It is on the opposite end of the springs. It also fires from the open bolt. Engineering such a solution into an existing outer shell is something that could only come out the office building with the extra side on the Patomac. The factors involved remove the M321 from a discussion of "assault rifles".

Back to the thread, leaving the buffer out is crazy. Folks here have addressed feed problem solutions. Messing with the rate of fire is not to engaged in lightly. Those of you who do need wisdom and luck. Thanks for taking the risk!