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varying OAL

F

flhtci2006

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Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 14, 2014
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Scottsdale, AZ
I have the hornady lock n load press and am using the hornady new dimension die with micro adjust stem. I find that my overall length varies by up to .024. I will set it for a length of 2.220-2.222 and will get rounds between 2.216 and 2.240 with most being around 2.228 to 2.233. I have even tried another die, RCBS without a crimp function, and have the same issue. The dies are all tight in the press and the shellplate is also tight. The function is:
Brass previously sized, trimmed (1.750-1.755) and primed (RCBS and Lee hand prime tools).
Brass goes in working around to station 2 for charge (25.5gn H4895).
Next is the powder cop in station 3.
Station 4 is bullet seater.
Station 5 is Lee factory crimp.

One other issue, when the round gets to the factory crimp, the spring tilts it and the round will hit the die, not enter into it, unless I adjust the round by hand.

Thanks for any support I can get.
Bear
 
What bullets are you using? Your seating die does not seat using the point, thus if your bullets are inconsistent your ammo will be as well.
 
What bullet are you trying to seat? I've never had that much of a variation in OAL with my LNL. Do you have similar OAL issues in other calibers? Have you tried using a comparator to get any of your measurements?

One thing you need to make sure you do to get the most consistency out of the LNL is to have a bullet in every station.
 
Hornady 2267 and Sierra 1355. Haven't loaded as many of the Sierra's yet but, at this point, they appear to have a narrow spread than the 2267's. Still. the spread is over .010.
 
At this point, I've only done the .223/5.56. I have .308 rifle and 9mm, 38spl and 45 pistol to do. I can easily run some .308 through it and see. There is a round in every station except the first one as I size/trim separately.
 
varying OAL

Measure length from base to the o-give and see if your getting consistent results


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you have to measure form the ogive like kirkd sad to get consistant results the tip on the bullet is always changing, get a comparator from hornady so you can measure the ogive and go from there i normally find a long bullet and set oal from there. not all lenghts are the same as the tip is inconsistant
 
.223 is usually loaded to mag length, so pick a long bullet out of your batch and seat it so it fits in your mag. At that point your die is set but record base to ogive length for future reference if you need to set your die again.
 
I have sierras and I have a variation from bullet base to ogive .650 to .690. Its ridiculous. I used the Hornady comparator to get this reading. I sorted my bullets in lot of .005 so .650 - .655, .655 - .660 etc.... Then once that is done its much easier to set your seating die and load up all the rounds you have placed into a lot and not get a shit ton of variance. To be honest .005 difference in bullet ogive to base turns out to be a pretty big difference when I get my loaded rounds but I'm not competing so I don't really care. As long as the bullet isn't seated too deep or jammed into the lands I'm happy but I still only like about a .002 variation from bullet ogive to case base. I use Redding dies with micrometer so these REALLY come in handy.
 
Ultraman,

Firstly, do you really need to crimp? Unless you are insistent on using cannulured bullets and really feel the need, I would just skip the crimp.

Next, the reason for variance in OAL is the bullets themselves. For seaters that use the bullet point as an index, it is self explanatory how you can get variance. For seaters that use a seating stem, the stem is a diameter smaller than the ogive. Variance in bullet shape will cause OAL variance, as well as variance in base to ogive length. There are 2 solutions to this:
A seating stem with a diameter of the ogive - as far as I know, this doesn't exist.

Seat the bullet long, measure base to ogive, make adjustments on the micrometer, then seat again. This is what I do to get base to ogive lengths with variance of less than .001" from round to round.

With current equipment, you cannot set and forget the micrometer on any seating die and expect low variance.
 
I am moving in a few weeks. When I get situated and set up my reloading bench, I am thinking of making some videos that show what I do to get consistent seating lengths with little effort. I believe that it will address a ton of questions posted on this topic.
 
Kirkd said:
Each bullet in each caliber will be different. So you can't compare a 50 to a 55gr, not can you campare a 55gr Hornady to a 55gr Nosler. Hope that make sense.


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Click to expand...

Actually, base to ogive length would be identical regardless of bullet used. OAL would be different.
 
varying OAL

mijp5 said:
Actually, base to ogive length would be identical regardless of bullet used. OAL would be different.
Click to expand...

Actually, that is incorrect. The o-give to base is a different length on my 223 compared to the 30-30 etc. plus my o-give to base is different on the Hornday 50gr vs the hornady 55gr. That is what I get after measuring, when seated the the oAL that is specified.


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Last edited:
Kirkd said:
Actually, that is incorrect


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Click to expand...

Ogive of a 223 bullet is .219 in diameter. It will be in a different spot on each bullet. But if you seat a bullet based on the ogive to base measurement, the ogive will be the same distance from the base. Trust me, I spent many many hours testing this.
 
mijp5 said:
Ultraman,

Firstly, do you really need to crimp? Unless you are insistent on using cannulured bullets and really feel the need, I would just skip the crimp.

Next, the reason for variance in OAL is the bullets themselves. For seaters that use the bullet point as an index, it is self explanatory how you can get variance. For seaters that use a seating stem, the stem is a diameter smaller than the ogive. Variance in bullet shape will cause OAL variance, as well as variance in base to ogive length. There are 2 solutions to this:
A seating stem with a diameter of the ogive - as far as I know, this doesn't exist.

Seat the bullet long, measure base to ogive, make adjustments on the micrometer, then seat again. This is what I do to get base to ogive lengths with variance of less than .001" from round to round.

With current equipment, you cannot set and forget the micrometer on any seating die and expect low variance.
Click to expand...
Where did I mention crimping? Lol, no crimping for me. Yeah it would be nice if there was a bullet seater that measured off the ogive but I think theres too much variance between bullets as a whole. I find some things confusing at times when people say they measured COAL and set it at mag length of 2.800. I use Alpha Mags and the internal OAL of them is 2.920 so where do they get a COAL of 2.80 being mag length? Is that for semi autos they're talking about? Also if you're just setting your bullets at a COAL of 2.800 which is what I think FGMM is and SW ammo isn't this going to hinder your rifles accuracy since bullet ogive to base length is always different and your rounds will not be consistent? Sorry for all the questions.
 
Kirkd said:
Actually, that is incorrect. The o-give to base is a different length on my 223 compared to the 30-30 etc. plus my o-give to base is different on the Hornday 50gr vs the hornady 55gr. That is what I get after measuring, when seated the the oAL that is specified.


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Click to expand...

Of course the ogive to base measurement is different between calibers. Within a single caliber, it will be the same. The OAL will be different with the same base to ogive measurement.
 
Ultraman550 said:
Where did I mention crimping? Lol, no crimping for me. Yeah it would be nice if there was a bullet seater that measured off the ogive but I think theres too much variance between bullets as a whole. I find some things confusing at times when people say they measured COAL and set it at mag length of 2.800. I use Alpha Mags and the internal OAL of them is 2.920 so where do they get a COAL of 2.80 being mag length? Is that for semi autos they're talking about? Also if you're just setting your bullets at a COAL of 2.800 which is what I think FGMM is and SW ammo isn't this going to hinder your rifles accuracy since bullet ogive to base length is always different and your rounds will not be consistent? Sorry for all the questions.
Click to expand...

You said you use the lee factory crimp die right?

Fgmm is about 2.800", and yes, the ogive measurement is variable.
 
Kirkd said:
Actually, that is incorrect. The o-give to base is a different length on my 223 compared to the 30-30 etc. plus my o-give to base is different on the Hornday 50gr vs the hornady 55gr. That is what I get after measuring, when seated the the oAL that is specified.


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Click to expand...

Kirk, are you talking about ogive to the base of the BULLET? If so, then yes, you are absolutely correct. I was talking about base of the case to ogive after seating.
 
As for me, OP, yes, I crimp with the Lee factory, primarily when using magnum primers. With that said, it is a light crimp. In reading about crimping, it is like arguing to spank or not....very different views. However, the point would be more as to why the spring pushes the case inward causing the interference. Crimp or no crimp, that shouldn't happen. I understand the projectile shape can easily cause the issue I'm having and I will check the length to the ogive. I do have Hornady's tool for doing that.

Video's would be great!

Bear
 
flhtci2006 said:
As for me, OP, yes, I crimp with the Lee factory, primarily when using magnum primers. With that said, it is a light crimp. In reading about crimping, it is like arguing to spank or not....very different views. However, the point would be more as to why the spring pushes the case inward causing the interference. Crimp or no crimp, that shouldn't happen. I understand the projectile shape can easily cause the issue I'm having and I will check the length to the ogive. I do have Hornady's tool for doing that.

Video's would be great!

Bear
Click to expand...

I use the Lee crimp on my rifles and pistol ammo with the exception of my precision rifle, which is a bolt action. It's worked well for me.


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mijp5 said:
Kirk, are you talking about ogive to the base of the BULLET? If so, then yes, you are absolutely correct. I was talking about base of the case to ogive after seating.
Click to expand...

Here is an exaggerated example. Both bullets are list to seat to the same overall length. Visually you can tell that that the catridge base to ogive will be different.

4esysa5a.jpg



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Kirkd said:
Here is an exaggerated example. Both bullets are list to seat to the same overall length. Visually you can tell that that the catridge base to ogive will be different.

4esysa5a.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Vp H cmhbffc
Click to expand...

Oh I see what you are saying Kirk. For a given OAL, the base to ogive length will indeed be different. I was referring to a given base to ogive length with different OAL. We had it backwards respective to one another.
 
mijp5 said:
Oh I see what you are saying Kirk. For a given OAL, the base to ogive length will indeed be different. I was referring to a given base to ogive length with different OAL. We had it backwards respective to one another.
Click to expand...

Cool. I recheck with different lots as well as there can be some small differences. I just wanted the guy to not assume that the CBTO was the same on all rounds for a certain caliber.


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flhtci2006 said:
As for me, OP, yes, I crimp with the Lee factory, primarily when using magnum primers. With that said, it is a light crimp. In reading about crimping, it is like arguing to spank or not....very different views. However, the point would be more as to why the spring pushes the case inward causing the interference. Crimp or no crimp, that shouldn't happen. I understand the projectile shape can easily cause the issue I'm having and I will check the length to the ogive. I do have Hornady's tool for doing that.
Click to expand...
As you understand, the length to ogive should be much more consistent. But I thought I'd mention there is a situation where you could get length variation, and another that could be the cause of your case not going into the station 5 die.

The LnL AP will often have a variation between bullets seated when the other dies (particularly the sizing die) opposite it have no brass, vs when they do. There is a small amount of deflection possible because of the position of the bolts holding the subplate to the ram vs the positions of the sizing & seating dies (if one die is empty).

When a case is crooked and won't go into the station 5 die, check to see if there is any clearance between the shellplate and the subplate. If there is clearance (despite the shell plate being screwed down tight) it could be caused either by a warped shell plate, or tolerances of the parts inside the ram causing the shell plate to raise up. If it happens on multiple shell plates, it may be that the subplate needs to be shimmed. If so, check AR15 forum, reloading section, for a detailed thread on this issue. Or ask here and I'll go look for it.
 
Without trying to sound to mushy, thank you all for your answers. This was my first time posting to this forum and definately appreciate the attitudes.
I will check the AR15 forum to see if I can find the thread recommended. If I can't, I might just ask for ypour (twoboxer) help.

Bear
 
Alright, an update. I did review other posts regarding the shimming of the subplate. I did this and in my case, I put in a .007" shim. This took care of the tilt in station 5 issue and the jerkiness causing powder to sometimes fly out in station 3. I was only able to check a couple rounds to see if the seating depth was constant but didn't come up with a true conclusion as of yet. I also put a universal decap die with the decap pin screwed up to not be functional. The idea being that since I don't use station 1, this die will slightly contact the shellplate offsetting the pressure applied in station 5 when seating the projectile. Being just a decap die it won't interfere with the case.
 
If you are having issues with the LNL flinging powder then try to adjust your alignment pawls on the bottom of the ram. That cured that for me. With the LNL the shimming really isn't necessary, the biggest issue you run into with that particular press is that if your shell plate is too loose or you are running it without cases in every station you will run into OAL variations. You don't necessarily need a die in any particular station. In the five years I had my LNL I never had trouble if you follow those two pieces of advice.

My biggest question that has still gone unanswered is how exactly are you making these measurements? If you are not using a comparator, you need to get one or you will not be able to accurately measure your variation.
 
My measurments were with a caliper from base to tip. Since the first post, I have tightened up my press with the .007 shim which makes it smoother and takes away the tilt issue in station 5. I have measured now from base to ogive. I have found the base to ogive measurement to fall within +/- .002 on length while the base to tip varies more. I have measured the projectiles themselves, H2267, and found a variance in length of .012 in a sample of 20. Hence, I find the overall length not worth measuring and instead will go by teh base to ogive length.
 
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