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Denver 7-11 Hostage (taker) Shot - why the torso?

It seems pretty stupid not to take the head shot. One would have to assume that they shot him because they believed he was armed, the article doesn't mention if the suspect had a firearm or knife, and might kill or injure the hostage. If that is the case the head shot would be the only option that would increase the chances that the hostage would not be harmed. If the suspect was armed with a handgun he still could have hurt the hostage when he was shot in the torso, although it looks like he hit the ground pretty fast. Just glad the woman hostage wasn't hurt and the Denver Police apprehended the suspect.
 
Anyone else wondering if that wasn't a 5.56 round from someone in the stack to the left? There's no visible pass-through into the glass doors behind him, and it appears that you can see the muzzle blast reflected in the window to the left of the hostage, followed by the muzzle lowering down. It would make more sense that someone on an entry team would choose a center of mass shot over the head, and it would also explain why it doesn't appear to have overpenetrated into the door behind him.
 
Denver 7-11 Hostage Shot - why the torso?

Arbiter said:
Anyone else wondering if that wasn't a 5.56 round from someone in the stack to the left? There's no visible pass-through into the glass doors behind him, and it appears that you can see the muzzle blast reflected in the window to the left of the hostage, followed by the muzzle lowering down. It would make more sense that someone on an entry team would choose a center of mass shot over the head, and it would also explain why it doesn't appear to have overpenetrated into the door behind him.
Click to expand...

There's definitely a pass-through that can be seen in different angles/videos.

7_Eleven_Hostage1_1389686007039_2012914_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
 
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Your title is misleading. I did not see any information that a hostage had been shot. In fact, the linked article said that no other injuries were reported.

As far as a torso vs. head shot debate, I'll leave that to the internet experts that always have something to say about police tactics and policy.
 
BoilerUP said:
There's definitely a pass-through that can be seen in different angles/videos.

7_Eleven_Hostage1_1389686007039_2012914_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
Click to expand...

Looks like it's hidden by the support column out front in the footage of the shot. So maybe it was a 308 after all? At the height it impacted, it looks like the bullet must have gone through the guy's throat or neck. Someone forgot to take off their 100 yard dope and was aiming for the ear?
 
Wait a minute. So the cops that responded to this did everything right and most likely saved a woman's life. Yet the some of the Hide commandos still find reason to castigate them? Unfuckingreal!

I mean really, why is this even a thread?
 
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I agree the police did everything right in this situation. I highly doubt the shot was off target. I don't know if news media was on scene of if they got the video from another source.

If the media was on scene you know DPD was aware of them and I am guessing it is possible the DPD brass wanted to avoid the head shot on live TV. Just a guess and my two cents.

It will be interesting to read the report after it is released by the DA.
 
Mike if you're really curious as to why they shot him where, why not just give the Denver PD a call. I'm sure that they're in a better position to entertain your questions and second guessing being that I'm fairly certain that no one here was there.

Denver PD (720) 913-2000
 
Reports around here say they shot him in the right shoulder, his gun holding shoulder.

I suppose in a way it makes sense... if you hit the shoulder square and center, there is no way he is not dropping the handgun, and therefore able to shoot the hostage. On paper it makes sense to avoid the fatal shooting and still rescue the hostage.

Still, I was surprised they took that risk and didn't go for the head. But that shooter has my respect for generating the absolute best outcome for a rough situation.
 
Slap - aren't you late for your date with Ramos and Cicinelli?

Remember - drink lots, and drive fast.....
 
Slapchop said:
Wait a minute. So the cops that responded to this did everything right and most likely saved a woman's life. Yet the some of the Hide commandos still find reason to castigate them? Unfuckingreal!

I mean really, why is this even a thread?
Click to expand...

How is a simple question such as, "Why the torso as opposed to the bean?" a threatening or disrespectful one? Damn son, you remind me of the worst teachers I've ever encountered. Any question was a threat to their obvious superiority. Are we not allowed to ask questions about firearm usage? Your rollin' hot, take the next exit, and get some sleep.
 
BALLISTIC said:
How is a simple question such as, "Why the torso as opposed to the bean?" a threatening or disrespectful one? Damn son, you remind me of the worst teachers I've ever encountered. Any question was a threat to their obvious superiority. Are we not allowed to ask questions about firearm usage? Your rollin' hot, take the next exit, and get some sleep.
Click to expand...

Of course, why does it not surprise me that the above was penned by you? Where did I ever imply that the OPs post was threatening or disrespectful? Nowhere, but if you knew how to or even bothered to read you would know that.

I simply don't see the value of this thread that chronicles guys doing their job. I also believed that the OPs question would be better directed toward the Denver PD since they were the ones who mitigated the incident. Would you ask your baker how to remove a brain tumor?

i get it though, where there is none, you'll fabricate some. Carry on.
 
Slapchop said:
Of course, why does it not surprise me that the above was penned by you? Where did I ever imply that the OPs post was threatening or disrespectful? Nowhere, but if you knew how to or even bothered to read you would know that.

I simply don't see the value of this thread that chronicles guys doing their job. I also believed that the OPs question would be better directed toward the Denver PD since they were the ones who mitigated the incident. Would you ask your baker how to remove a brain tumor?

i get it though, where there is none, you'll fabricate some. Carry on.
Click to expand...

Keep spinning it, I should have bought you a giant Ladle for Christmas.

From your use of, castigate. My bad, it means... "reprimand (someone) severely" So I guess asking a sensible question is to, reprimand (someone) severely. Now is this what you meant? Does this make sense? Is this Logical? LMAO, your attempts at insult are not getting better either, you must need to go back to high school, maybe seek out that school resource position, you might pickup some more appropriate calumnies.

I highly doubt the Denver PD would even offer a polite response if the OP actually called them, so STFU with your bullshit as if you were actually trying to help him get his question answered. You should know that, you are LEO correct? Pathetic use of Logic there, son.

Hmmm, what else should I 'fabricate'... I think that's it for now. Leave me some sticks, and I'll be back to show you how to build a house using Logic.
 
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BALLISTIC said:
Keep spinning it, I should have bought you a giant Ladle for Christmas.

From your use of, castigate. My bad, it means... "reprimand (someone) severely" So I guess asking a sensible question is to, reprimand (someone) severely. Now is this what you meant? Does this make sense? Is this Logical? LMAO, your attempts at insult are not getting better either, you must need to go back to high school, maybe seek out that school resource position, you might pickup some more appropriate calumnies.

I highly doubt the Denver PD would even offer a polite response if the OP actually called them, so STFU with your bullshit as if you were actually trying to help him get his question answered. You should know that, you are LEO correct? Pathetic use of Logic there, son.

Hmmm, what else should I 'fabricate'... I think that's it for now. Leave me some sticks, and I'll be back to show you how to build a house using Logic.
Click to expand...

For guys like you, Google has been a lifesaver lol... My initial post here had very little to do with the OP other than wondering what purpose did the thread serve. Having said that, how is it sensible to ask a "simple question" of people who weren't there? Any answers you would get would mere be speculation or conjecture no?

Like I said though, where there is none, fabricate it.

I love it when you tell everyone how much of a grasp on logic you have lol.

EDIT: In the future when you Google a "big" (for you) word, make sure you scroll down a bit. Often times, words have various meanings and you actually have to click on the link in order to see the full definition.
 
What's a matter Slap, 'fraid some lowly "civi" will point out that CNS shot are advocated for - for the very reason that impacts anywhere but, allow for the possibility that highly motivated and armed suspects can still use their weapon against innocents?

Did it work out this time? Yep. Was it supposed to go down that way? Well - that be the reason for the post.

Don't worry though, regardless of what you say - I still love you.
 
Well google is yin/yang really, but almost anything can be used for good if you know how. I understood the context of what you meant, but maybe not the exactly definition, so I clarified it. Either way, is that what you meant, severely reprimand?

How is asking a question out loud or to others, EVER a bad thing? If anything it brings discussion, and usually thought, by multiple parties. You are a hard chargin' police dude, maybe you have an idea about the tactics used. Instead you go Robotard on him, and bitch because someone made a thread asking a simple question on tactics.

Please answer the questions in red, if possible? Otherwise keep talking in circles, and I'll leave you be.

ETA, Is this what you meant slap? Please choose the one you meant, and then replace it into the sentence you used. Now read that sentence, out loud if need be, and then think about my original question.

reprimand, rebuke, admonish, chastise, chide, censure, upbraid, reprove, reproach, scold, berate, take to task, lambaste, give someone a piece of one's mind; informalrake/haul over the coals, tell off, give someone an earful, give someone a tongue-lashing, give someone a roasting, rap someone on the knuckles, slap someone's wrist, dress down, bawl out, give someone hell, blow up at, lay into, blast, zing, have a go at, give someone what for, chew out, ream out;
rare reprehend
 
Mike_Honcho said:
Did it work out this time? Yep. Was it supposed to go down that way? Well - that be the reason for the post.
Click to expand...

Who here is qualified to answer that? You would have made better use of your time and bandwidth reaching out to the Denver PD and getting is straight from the source. Then you could have shared your findings with us. But I think that I can safely say that the "why" wasn't really what you were after in the first place.
 
Asking questions is never a bad thing but you're wasting your time asking the wrong people. None of us were there. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

This is incident had the best possible outcome and people still find reasons to complain and criticize because a headshot wasn't taken. You would think that people would be glad that no lives were lost and only the criminal suffered injuries.
 
BALLISTIC said:
Well google is yin/yang really, but almost anything can be used for good if you know how ...
Click to expand...

NskPz9h.jpg


Nobody's gonna get a happy ending in this thread at this rate, unlike at Ying Yang's. Slow down, come up for air, and marvel at the tolerance and leniency that seems to be demonstrated in this one as well as in others. Political digs ​don't help the argument.
 
Slapchop said:
Who here is qualified to answer that?
Click to expand...

It's like science and stuff dude.... Specifically physiology. It is actually kinda like established in lots of literature that those with the task would read.


But, hey you're a Hillary voter, so you roll different. You right. I am wrong to have posted this. You give Ramos and Cicinelli a hug for me, OK?
 
Why do you continually try to interject an incident that has zero relevance to your question? You mad that they got acquitted?
 
Slapchop said:
Who here is qualified to answer that? ...... But I think that I can safely say that the "why" wasn't really what you were after in the first place.
Click to expand...

Damn shame there is no qualified snipers in this whole forum that could state a condition where such a shot would be preferred over a head shot or how the bullet likely ended up where it did such as, oh, say perhaps, glass deflection. Or, as an LEO, are you implying there is no tactical or environmental reason for it and so we need to see what the officer was thinking/feeling???? As to your "why" comment I'll bow to your obviously superior intellect and LEO instincts, since, as a grad-u-tated English speaker, both the thread title and OP statement ask why that shot placement was used. I'm sure you're correct though. It is probably the Queen's English way of saying "another LEO misadventure".
 
While the thread has certainly wandered from the OP, who's question it seems, was straight forward, one could come to the conclusion other folks felt they know better than the cops on scene:
Shooter McGavin said:
It seems pretty stupid not to take the head shot. One would have to assume that they shot him because they believed he was armed, the article doesn't mention if the suspect had a firearm or knife, and might kill or injure the hostage. If that is the case the head shot would be the only option.
Click to expand...

In an effort to answer the question, this is not "Enemy at the Gates", not every shot has to be a head shot.
Was he armed? Not sure at the time. Reports were that he was.
Was he displaying the weapon? Not sure, can't see it in the video.
He sure as hell wasn't pointing the weapon directly at the hostage, therefore a head shot isn't required.
As soon as the shot breaks, the team begin moving in.

Just so you guys know, his head wasn't stapled to a target board. Actual heads tend to bob and sway, a good thoracic cavity shot gives you a much larger target that does not make such large movements.
The way the perp reacted, I'm guessing .308. Had it been a 5.56, I would have gone for the cranial cavity. Too many failures with the 5.56 center mass where the perp contiues to operate.
 
Slappy, do you actually think that if you were to call Denver PD that they would tell you anything other than it is an on going investigation and they have no comment?
The outcome was good so I will not "castigate" them, I do wish it had been a CNS shot so we taxpayers out here would be paying for a burial instead of a large hospital bill. Regards, FM
 
Slapchop said:
This is incident had the best possible outcome and people still find reasons to complain and criticize because a headshot wasn't taken.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with this incident being the best possible outcome. Since the perp will likely survive the torso shot, the citizens of Colorado will now be burdened with providing room and board to another worthless, mouth breathing parasite. The best possible outcome would've been to splatter the bastard's brains all over the candy bars, ramen noodles, and whatever else was behind him.

Whatever the officers reasoning was for not taking the headshot, I'm sure it for a good reason. I wasn't the one behind the trigger nor was I there so I won't second guess or say what he should have ​done. The important thing is the hostage is alive today because of the actions of the officer.
 
A very intriguing thread title which I entered hoping to find some intellectual argument over legal/tactical/practical reasoning's for various shot placement decisions in hostage scenarios...

..which ended up just being a bunch of retards. SH gets better every year.
 
Damn fine job by the officers. Thanks to each of them for responding and cleaning up scum like that asshole. Really glad the hostage was ok and no officers got injured. Fuck that pos.
 
ArmyJerry said:
The perp should have been negotiated with, he didn't look like a bad guy. Don't see a need to shoot the poor guy.
Click to expand...

Are you being sarcastic or serious? If it's the latter, do you also advocate for pedophiles to be rehabilitated? To hell with negotiating or rehabilitating; face shoot the fuckers.
 
So, does anyone know why they didn't shoot the vermilion line? Seems like it would have saved some tax payer $'s and, shown on TV/Youtube, would have been some cheap preventive maintenance...
 
No matter where he hit him, it worked good.
He fell like a tom turkey turd from a tall tree. Where ever it was, I don't want one like it.
Regards, FM
 
MarinePMI said:
So, does anyone know why they didn't shoot the vermilion line? Seems like it would have saved some tax payer $'s and, shown on TV/Youtube, would have been some cheap preventive maintenance...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that anyone wants to broach the subject of hitting the vermilion line/philtrum for a straight-on (whys, wherefores, etc.). It's a bit more graphic for most consumers than where that tasty pork chop really comes from, and they're just as happy that the hostage-taker dropped like a sack of 'taters and did no more harm, rather than thinking about the processes involved in willing a finger to press inward and what it takes to interrupt them as commands from the brain.
 
Judging by the body areas exposed, lack of blood, and the way he dropped I thought he was hit in the spinal cord, around T2-T4. This is at the level of the shoulder, and the round could have taken both the spinal cord and shoulder out at the same time.
 
A few reasons maybe for the non head shot. Yes we train to turn off the electrical system but maybe the magic spot was concealed by the hostage. Video doesn't show a POV angle. Maybe "Center mass of the target available" was the only option if the shooter thought if he didn't act the hostage was about to be shot. A lot of us had the same question but I'm sure the team had its reason.
 
When this happened, I wondered if PR didn't play a role in the placement with all the cameras around. I would hope it didn't, but you never know these days.
 
The cops responded to the call.
Negotiations failed.
Hostage taker refused to cooperate.
He tried to leave, continuing to put the woman's life in danger.
He made a conscious decision to do what he was doing.
The cops, after holding back for more than an hour, and now dealing with a dynamic and ever changing situation chose to drop him, based entirely on his actions.
They make a shot that stops the aggressive actions of the hostage taker, while not harming the woman.

To me it seemed like a very professionally conducted response to what could have been a disaster.


I say well done.

Now of course if anything would have gone wrong(like the guy suddenly decides inside the store to do a murder suicide), the resident experts would have been bitching "why didn't they do ____?".

The cops do it right and people here talk shit. They do it wrong and people here talk shit.

In the end, the cops were responding to the bad guys actions. His actions/choices had consequences.
 
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