They paid for the R&D when they bought the company. They didn't get it for free. They built a factory in Canada. Had they kept production in Germany the prices would have prolly remained at the same level.
Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - Professional Marksman
- Thread starter orkan
- Start date
The money to pay a team of engineers to spend months and months twisting elevation turrets has to come from somewhere!
I've had some die-hard S&B guys come through my shop. I have a 5-25 S&B I keep around the office just so they can compare. I put S&B and a Premier inside a box, and tell them to put in a solution, something like up 6.5, left 1.7. Then tell me which scope they like, left or right. The Premier has won, EVERY single time... The key is, I tell them that I have a new prototype S&B in there with the PMII.
When I pull it out and show them the Premier... they about shit. Point is... no one has chosen the S&B, in over a year. Some very happy people in my neck of the woods that have converted from S&B to Premier. Brand name can cloud judgement. If everyone buying an optic had the ability to go and use each scope they were contemplating before purchasing, there are several manufacturers that would likely not be around anymore.
Lets not forget, while the turrets look the same, they are a completely new design. A large portion of these scopes are brand new designs.
Is the warranty lifetime?
Yes. If it has Premier, or Tangent Theta on the side, they will warranty it forever. Doesn't matter where or when you bought it.
We'll I don't know why everyone is bitching about the price over S&B being cheaper..... Lifetime warranty is worth 700 more or so. I'm in! Got an X-Ray 51 ordered that this scope needs to sit on!
Give us a call when you're ready to secure yours! Our opening order is moving pretty quick.
Greg,
Are the MOA turrets still 50/turn? Did you notice anything different between the 3-15 and the 5-25?
Are the MOA turrets still 50/turn? Did you notice anything different between the 3-15 and the 5-25?
I did not see a MOA version on display, so I can't tell you for sure. I speculate they will be 50 per turn. Aside from magnification and size, I didn't notice anything different between the 3-15 and 5-25. Though most of my time was spent with the 3-15 in my hands while we talked about all the new changes, the history, and the future.
Speaking for myself...Its not completely about S&B... The NF Beast, the Khales 624i. the Steiner 5-25x56, The New Vortex Razor series, the new HDMRs, So many great products to choose from that already have established themselves. Im not saying the Theta is not a bad ass scope as I had a premier and loved it, but I dont understand the introductory price point is all. The majority of the shooting community was not at SHOT to look through it. Its just going to take some convincing before we spend a grand more over the previous scopes mentioned. Im glad some of you guys are going to get one to put it through the paces for guys like me that need a little more convincing. I wish them luck though, I always loved my Premiers.
The main reason I love S&B is due to JerryR. HE takes care of us with no questions asked and has out scopes back to us before we ever knew they left. Warranty or not, he takes care of us. You cannot write that down on the side of a scope box.
The main reason I love S&B is due to JerryR. HE takes care of us with no questions asked and has out scopes back to us before we ever knew they left. Warranty or not, he takes care of us. You cannot write that down on the side of a scope box.
[MENTION=20064]orkan[/MENTION]
Earlier in the thread it was asked if TT was planning on some new reticle options.
Are they?
Frankly, the XR is too fine for a lot of sub ~20x use, and worthless for sub ~8x use unless there is a perfect solid-colored (lightly colored) background behind the target, and I know I'm not in the minority in my criticisms.
These new optics look great, but for $4250, they should be perfection.
It sounds as if you've got TTs ear, please let them know on behalf of the end users, they need some new reticle designs.
Earlier in the thread it was asked if TT was planning on some new reticle options.
Are they?
Frankly, the XR is too fine for a lot of sub ~20x use, and worthless for sub ~8x use unless there is a perfect solid-colored (lightly colored) background behind the target, and I know I'm not in the minority in my criticisms.
These new optics look great, but for $4250, they should be perfection.
It sounds as if you've got TTs ear, please let them know on behalf of the end users, they need some new reticle designs.
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I hear you. That said I've dealt with both Jerry@SB and Paul@PR (during PRs ownership AND ATIs), and Paul treats you and handles issues every bit as well as Jerry.
I'll get a firm confirmation for you in regard to reticle options. I am fairly certain more are forthcoming, but I'll try to get some more info.
Any word from the ATI folks about the questions asked earlier in this thread?
I'll be stopping by their booth tomorrow AM... and will get the questions answered then.
Been sick as a dog for the last two days and haven't left the hotel room.
Been sick as a dog for the last two days and haven't left the hotel room.
4200 for a 5-25. think i will pass, you know... considering the even with mil/fed pricing, leupold is still making money off their mk8 and mk 6 lines, what companies are asking for scopes these days are getting somwhat silly
Exactly!!!
It is going to take a lot of convincing to get past the rebranded premier perception ... The pricing is also shocking. Like one guy mentioned what is it going to do that a another scope 1500$ cheaper can't ?
Reliable? Tracking? Zero stop?
Optically better? But how much? Worth 1500$ ?
Turret clicks? Scopes are getting the job done now.
I will say when that not having locking turrets is welcome. Not a fan. MTC option is nice. I can go either way.
If they could have priced it to let dealers sell at around 2900 they would move.
Reliable? Tracking? Zero stop?
Optically better? But how much? Worth 1500$ ?
Turret clicks? Scopes are getting the job done now.
I will say when that not having locking turrets is welcome. Not a fan. MTC option is nice. I can go either way.
If they could have priced it to let dealers sell at around 2900 they would move.
At $2900 I'd buy one tomorrow to check out!
It's all about the rate of return on a piece of gear. I.e. I use a Leopold GR 12-40 spotter with a TMR reticle. I want a Henny spotter 45. Both do the same thing, the reticles are a toss up. It comes down to the glass, is the 3k difference worth it for the better glass????? For what I do, the Leopold does just fine.
It's all about the rate of return on a piece of gear. I.e. I use a Leopold GR 12-40 spotter with a TMR reticle. I want a Henny spotter 45. Both do the same thing, the reticles are a toss up. It comes down to the glass, is the 3k difference worth it for the better glass????? For what I do, the Leopold does just fine.
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$1000, $2000, $3000, $4000, $5000...
whatever the price, I love the fact that there is competition and we the customer can each decide what is valuable to us individually ... we ain't force to buy and the companies aren't forced to set prices at a certain level. Imagine if Obama controlled prices in the rifle optics marketplace and/or forced us to buy at that price?!?! Now THAT would suck.
Wish TT would consider a 5-25 in the "M" style. Love my 3-15 Light Tactical and always thought a 5-25x in the same lighter/smaller setup would make a lot of sense. A TT525M in the price range of the TT315M would be a hot seller, I'm sure.
whatever the price, I love the fact that there is competition and we the customer can each decide what is valuable to us individually ... we ain't force to buy and the companies aren't forced to set prices at a certain level. Imagine if Obama controlled prices in the rifle optics marketplace and/or forced us to buy at that price?!?! Now THAT would suck.
Wish TT would consider a 5-25 in the "M" style. Love my 3-15 Light Tactical and always thought a 5-25x in the same lighter/smaller setup would make a lot of sense. A TT525M in the price range of the TT315M would be a hot seller, I'm sure.
Stopped by the Tangent Theta booth and got those questions answered for you guys.
Are there any other ARD designs in the works? In a word, no. Not right now anyway. However, I did raise my concerns about the current regimented honeycomb design and the light transmission/shadowing problems it can cause. They are going to take a look and get back to me. However, nothing will be available for quite some time, even if they decide to change anything.
Can a Premier scope be upgraded with the new Tangent Theta turrets? No. Period.
Where are the parts for these scopes made? All of the components are sourced from vendors whom can produce the best end product. This means about 50% of the scopes components are manufactured in Germany, with various percentages of components being sourced throughout USA, Canada, Asia, or wherever else they must go to source the best quality possible. The exact origin of some parts are confidential, largely due to agreements they have in place, or the exclusive nature of their vendor agreement. In some cases these relationships exist at great expense, and have a considerable impact on the quality of the finished product. They certainly are not going to let the world know, so their competition can court the same entities! Tangent Theta is confident that they have a manufacturing network which allows them to produce the finest scopes available.
Will there be a military discount available? Yes. The exact amount is to be determined. I will be sure to update here when I get this information. (gimme a week or two for SHOT to wear off)
Will there be more reticle choices? Yes. The Gen2MD will be added for those looking for a thicker reticle, and they are also entertaining other reticle options. If there is enough interest, they will make it. Simple as that. It will take more than a couple inquiries in order for this to happen. Think closer to a hundred, than ten.
Are there any other ARD designs in the works? In a word, no. Not right now anyway. However, I did raise my concerns about the current regimented honeycomb design and the light transmission/shadowing problems it can cause. They are going to take a look and get back to me. However, nothing will be available for quite some time, even if they decide to change anything.
Can a Premier scope be upgraded with the new Tangent Theta turrets? No. Period.
Where are the parts for these scopes made? All of the components are sourced from vendors whom can produce the best end product. This means about 50% of the scopes components are manufactured in Germany, with various percentages of components being sourced throughout USA, Canada, Asia, or wherever else they must go to source the best quality possible. The exact origin of some parts are confidential, largely due to agreements they have in place, or the exclusive nature of their vendor agreement. In some cases these relationships exist at great expense, and have a considerable impact on the quality of the finished product. They certainly are not going to let the world know, so their competition can court the same entities! Tangent Theta is confident that they have a manufacturing network which allows them to produce the finest scopes available.
Will there be a military discount available? Yes. The exact amount is to be determined. I will be sure to update here when I get this information. (gimme a week or two for SHOT to wear off)
Will there be more reticle choices? Yes. The Gen2MD will be added for those looking for a thicker reticle, and they are also entertaining other reticle options. If there is enough interest, they will make it. Simple as that. It will take more than a couple inquiries in order for this to happen. Think closer to a hundred, than ten.
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Classic!
+1 MSR Reticle
I was hoping to hear the other.... sad this wasn't even considered.
My thoughts exactly. To say manufacturers are getting stupid with their pricing would be a masterpiece of an understatement. Paying $3500 for top-of-the-line optic like SB is to be expected but when you launch into the stratosphere with prices like $4500, $5000, $6000, and $7000...that fuckin thing had better also have NV built into it.
Prices will continue to climb into outer space as long as there are idiots with too much money or too little brains who will pay those insane prices.
I don't give a damn how audible those clicks are or how they feel when it's costing $1000+ more than Steiner, SB, NightForce, Kahles, and other solid brands.
If having a lighter wallet makes you feel better about looking through a rebranded and price-hiked Premier, well...a fool and his money are soon parted.
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So long as the high end community keeps stating the "buy once, cry once" mantra, manufacturers will keep pushing prices higher even if the product evolution doesn't correlate.
It's pretty hard to evolve around everyone else's patents.
I didn't say it wasn't considered. It isn't even a possibility. The turrets on the Premier's are not similar to Tangent Theta's in anything other than appearance. They took a long look at it, but it simply was not going to be an option. At least not one they could stand behind and tell the end user they wouldn't have problems with.
Despite what people want to claim, these are not re-branded Premier's. That has been mentioned more than one time in this thread. Ignoring facts doesn't change them from being facts. Repeating untruths does not make them truths. Price complaining, that I can understand. Don't need to touch it to know you don't like the price. However, facts separate themselves from opinion quite nicely when a few qualified and heavily experienced individuals standing in front of the TT booth at the same time I was, make the same comments I did. I'm not going to name names, as it's in bad form to profit from guys like that without their permission. Suffice it to say, if it put a smile on their face, it'll put a smile on anyone's face. Those guys were by definition "professional marksmen."
This scope is a breath of fresh air in an industry that has become downtrodden with over-hyped and under-delivered releases. Several makers intro'd their new "baddest" scope two years ago, and it STILL cannot be ordered. Once more people get some actual time with these scopes, I'm betting the "price" hating will be reduced to a distant hum compared to the deafening roar it is now. No one likes expensive things, yet everything is expensive now. It's called poor economy coupled with inflation. That doesn't mean it costs less to run a company. It means it costs more.
Didn't S&B just have a nice price hike recently?
The way I see it is if YOU think the price is too high for quality that might rival what is out there already by "industries leaders", then go buy those scopes and leave the more expensive to those crazies that can afford it or who are dumb enough to go into debt for one. I don't understand the complaining for something like this. It's not like there's two or three scopes to choose from out there and we are forced into a $4000 scope for any kind of quality. We have the best availability of quality scopes for ANY price range to date. If finances is a limiting factor, then do your research, go look at as many scopes as you can and then make a decision based on what you can afford. Having the best or the second best or the best of the next-to-top-tier-scope will not make you a better shooter, so really, in all seriousness, what in the world does it matter? IF it's a cool factor, then you gotta pay to play the game. That's how it's always been and that's how people will always be. If you really do have to impress people in order to feel accomplished, why don't you do it with your skill rather than what you can buy?
I've got several scopes-2 March, 1 S&B, 1 Vortex Razor HD and a BEAST on order. All these scopes have their strengths and weaknesses, but all are very solid and function well for the type of shooting I do. I would not even consider the 27X S&B nor this new TT line, since I still need to have some cash for ammo and practice. Pricing has always been set by supply and demand. As nice as the TT offering sounds, we'll have to see where the price settles once we see what the true demand will be!!! Not as high as this new company is expecting would be my guess. Time will tell. That's how Free Capital Markets work! Nice to have many quality options to choose from.
What causes the most doubt with this product is not the price nor the sourcing locations...its trust. Its very difficult to take this scope and your claims seriously when fanboys and those with a financial interest in selling a shitty product only recently beat the Premier drum with the same intensity you now beat the TT drum. Just last week you were still shovelling the Premier manure and not once admitted to the obvious and undeniable shortcomings of the Premier. Trust is lost. TT would be better served by letting their products speak for themselves and distancing themselves from those who suckled the Premier teet.
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Interesting perspective.
was thinking same thing.
there are other scopes that are 90 percent the scope but half the price.
exotic offerings have gone full retard price wise.
All this reminds me of the of the trap that people fall into regardless of the hobby.... "gotta have the latest and greatest". I'll shoot better if I have a 4k scope vs a 3k or 2k scope. Really? One benefit of this is the huge supply of excellent tactical scopes for sale at affordable prices. It's exactly how I bought a 3k Canon camera body for 1k. It's not all about the hardware as much as the software behind the trigger.
So true Lofty, but at least the majority of folks are seeing these prices for what they are, laughable!
TT is in for an uphill climb if they're sticking with this pricepoint IMO.
This whole thread makes me lol. Insane price for a new company with no track record that purchased the rights to a chapter11 company that was overpriced to begin with.
Make this thing 2500 and you will have value.
Make this thing 2500 and you will have value.
Absolutely, I have my eye on the new Gen II Vortex 4.5 x 27 and if their glass is ANYTHING like their Gen II 1x6, its gonna be a winner for roughly half the price of this Theta Thingy. Dont get me wrong, I had a Premier and loved it.....didnt so much love the company, but the scope rocked. I dont care if I had Match Box 20 money, Im not paying $4500 for an optic if a $2400 optic is so close in terms of performance that you cannot legitimately tell the difference.
This whole esoteric thing gets out of control, I saw the same thing in high end audiophile gear. People would swear they could hear a significant difference between a $5000 set of audio cables and a $500 set of audio cables....but they had to in order to justify the expense and it was a status / branding reaction and some people have more money than common sense.
Hey, its a free country though.
Profiling is important.... Hey! Look at me. Saw lot of it when I was road racing motorcycles. Guys would spend money on carbon fiber bodywork, etc etc. and they were still mid pack riders. All things being equal skill trumps gadgets.
I think that some of you should consider the intended end user of the optic when comparing them, especially the cost. Some scopes are made out of better more durable and therefore more expensive materials. Just because Vortex can deliver a scope with the same features at half the price does not mean it is a better value. It might be for someone who shoots their rifle occasionally and swaps out scopes every time some new feature comes out, but not for a hard core enthusiast who will be out at the range cranking on those knobs 24/7.
Second, look who's the competition: if you're in the toy market, the field is going to be highly competitive. So the pricing is going to be cut throat. You can't compare that to another market where it is a lot less competitive and where end users are willing to pay through the nose for the absolute best.
Third, consider that all of these trick features are patent protected. You can't expect a company to offer anything at the price you want just because a particular feature exists somewhere else. If you were the king of the world you could order a perfect scope. In the real world you have to work around patents. This often involves some extraordinary engineering which is expensive. If it costs half but offers the same features, beware. It is prolly a POS.
Second, look who's the competition: if you're in the toy market, the field is going to be highly competitive. So the pricing is going to be cut throat. You can't compare that to another market where it is a lot less competitive and where end users are willing to pay through the nose for the absolute best.
Third, consider that all of these trick features are patent protected. You can't expect a company to offer anything at the price you want just because a particular feature exists somewhere else. If you were the king of the world you could order a perfect scope. In the real world you have to work around patents. This often involves some extraordinary engineering which is expensive. If it costs half but offers the same features, beware. It is prolly a POS.
This price argument is all relative. I have friends who own 800-1200 scopes and think that I am crazy for buying 2000-2500 scopes, because their scopes can get it done just as well as mine. I also have people who come into the shop and think that anyone who pays over 250 is nuts because their ( fill in the blank scope ) is wonderful.....in their eyes. Its all relative. Just be glad to have options and choices. I am glad to have more competition in the market place. Bring them on. The people who will win will be the consumer.
I'm not going to buy one of these, and why would I???
I know I can get 3-4 proven scopes in direct competition with the TT for $1000 less!! I know for a fact the TT is going to give me $1000 worth of jack shit over the other scopes.
It's funny the TT say they fixed all the short comings of the PH and you have to pay $1000 for the privilege!
I know I can get 3-4 proven scopes in direct competition with the TT for $1000 less!! I know for a fact the TT is going to give me $1000 worth of jack shit over the other scopes.
It's funny the TT say they fixed all the short comings of the PH and you have to pay $1000 for the privilege!
I won't even bother to address the price aspect of your post, but I feel obligated to correct the "no track record" statement. Yes, Tangent Theta is a new entity, but the people behind it are anything but new to the optics world. Andrew Webber and his team at ATI have been working in the shooting and optics industry for over 25 years. Elcan, and the number of optics they ship through ATI, makes S&B and other companies like them look like a spec on the wall. I forget the exact number, but ATI is responsible for deployment and servicing of over 70,000 optics on a single contract. Do you really think a company like Raytheon(elcan) would be working with a company "with no track record?" In that regard, Tangent Theta has more of a "track record" than most other companies you see mentioned on this forum every day. The ownership of TT/ATI have many national and international shooting titles to their name as well.
So just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't have a track record. They have one of the most prestigious track records in the shooting sports world.
Here is is my recap of my conversation with Andrew Webber, understand, it was lengthy, and very candid. Nothing was held back, there were no off limit subjects.
To few points about history, they are well known in this industry, the fact they chosen to rebrand, and redesign should not be looked at as a negative.
Another thing to understand, Optronika is gone, they are German Sport Optic now and are part of Minox. They were contracted to address the issues of the Heritage and that job has been finished. TT is it's own entity with a new factory in Canada. GSO can be contracted for design work, but it's not like it was in the past.
Yes, we definitely have great competition out there for less money. That too is the nature of the game. With every company chasing the S&B 5-25x many have caught up to that Gold Standard. At a lower price point. Vortex, March, NF, Steiner, Kahles, etc. all great choices. Consider this too Jeff Huber, who ran NF and designed the ATACR and the Beast is now at Kahles. Expect great things from them. They adjusted the K624i down, from $3200 to $2800. You can split hairs that your eye sees something more with one scope than another, but that is all subjective. Nothing more than a fancy eye test. You won't hit a target any better.
I liked what I heard at TT, I think they have a great new product. Price is price, either you can or you can't, doesn't mean there aren't options to satisfy everyone. It's just another tool, it's not much else, if you don't get that, continue to chase this dragon, but trust me, you'll never be fulfilled in your quest.
To few points about history, they are well known in this industry, the fact they chosen to rebrand, and redesign should not be looked at as a negative.
Another thing to understand, Optronika is gone, they are German Sport Optic now and are part of Minox. They were contracted to address the issues of the Heritage and that job has been finished. TT is it's own entity with a new factory in Canada. GSO can be contracted for design work, but it's not like it was in the past.
Yes, we definitely have great competition out there for less money. That too is the nature of the game. With every company chasing the S&B 5-25x many have caught up to that Gold Standard. At a lower price point. Vortex, March, NF, Steiner, Kahles, etc. all great choices. Consider this too Jeff Huber, who ran NF and designed the ATACR and the Beast is now at Kahles. Expect great things from them. They adjusted the K624i down, from $3200 to $2800. You can split hairs that your eye sees something more with one scope than another, but that is all subjective. Nothing more than a fancy eye test. You won't hit a target any better.
I liked what I heard at TT, I think they have a great new product. Price is price, either you can or you can't, doesn't mean there aren't options to satisfy everyone. It's just another tool, it's not much else, if you don't get that, continue to chase this dragon, but trust me, you'll never be fulfilled in your quest.
dude, i know your pushing the product here HARD but are we really going to go down this road? My first Premier scope was a 20 year old luppy with one of their reticles (which broke within a year and the company was nowhere to be found).... Lets see, Premier starts wrenching on leupolds, plenty of documented quality issues, goes out of business. Next 2007 we have a bunch of fluff and Premier is all of the sudden making a scope (heritage) under all new management that will crush the 8 year old PM2. Many documented issues again, hype dies down company can not make a steady profit here come Optronika... oh snap mew management, new everything more fluff. Now its TT thats taking over and starting from scratch, right. You dropping names doesnt mean anything. There are hundreds of talented people that leave Google every-year to go work for start-ups, yet we don't have a new Google replacement.
I still own a few Premier scopes, good scopes but S&B is better. Having a price higher than S&B is just plain retarded, will fool some until they run out of money and someone else buys them again unless they wake up and truly make something thats much better or drop their prices by 35%.
Zeiss redesigned their 4-16 turrets and raised the price $900.
I guess they retarded as well.
I guess they retarded as well.
Zeiss has been in business for 150 years. Premier has switches names/ownership 4 times in like ~7 years and keep going near bankrupt with each product launch. I would say there is a difference there.
But this isn't just simply Premier changing ownership. This is like Zeiss buying Premier and redesigning it.
I wouldn't hold your breath there chief.
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