Hey guys I am considering having a local reliability firearms guru build/ assemble me either an 243wssm or 6.8. The intent for this gun is something for deer, pigs, and some med distance shooting (600yrds) and something my 2 boys can shoot. I was originally thinking ar10 because I already have 2 243's I reload for. Going ar10 though may make the gun a bit heavy for 6-9 yr old boys to handle. What route would you guys go on an accurized ar15? It seems the 243wssm brass isn't available. Has this been a problem for others?
- Thread starter KerDog77
- Start date
The performance WSSM is great...but reloading it and finding components can be difficult. Brass availability is problematic and I had to try several dies to get things working smooth enough to be reliable in the AR platform. Don't get me wrong, I love mine, but it took a lot of patience and trial/error to get things just right. If you go that route be prepared for some growing pains. Good luck.
I'd make sure I could find a good source of brass for the WSSM before jumping into it.
The .243 would be a better choice for 600yds, not that the 6.8 could not make it as many have took it out to 1k yards but it can't compete with a .243 in long range shooting.
As for recoil the 6.8 is very mild. Factory loaded ammo, brass, bullets and mags are easy to find. It peforms great with all lengths of barrels, even SBR rigs. Most of the 6.8 bullets can kill pigs/deer out to 400yds. Check out AR15 Performance for a barrel/bolt, he is known as having the industry standard when it comes to a 6.8. Stay away from any barrels with the SPC 1 chamber, you want SPC 2.
The .243 would be a better choice for 600yds, not that the 6.8 could not make it as many have took it out to 1k yards but it can't compete with a .243 in long range shooting.
As for recoil the 6.8 is very mild. Factory loaded ammo, brass, bullets and mags are easy to find. It peforms great with all lengths of barrels, even SBR rigs. Most of the 6.8 bullets can kill pigs/deer out to 400yds. Check out AR15 Performance for a barrel/bolt, he is known as having the industry standard when it comes to a 6.8. Stay away from any barrels with the SPC 1 chamber, you want SPC 2.
if it was me id consider a 6.5 Grendel. excellent cartridge with minimal recoil. factory loaded ammo is available. 6.8 won't be efficient out to 600yds and a 243wssm will be a heavy rifle for a 9yr old.
Take a look at the 6mm turbo ar 40. http://www.6mmar.com/6mmAR_Turbo_40_Improved.php
108 gr at 2900 fops and feeds great
108 gr at 2900 fops and feeds great
For double-duty of hunting medium game and 600-yard target shooting, I suggest the 6.5 Grendel.
If youre going to be shooting game at 600yds I'd go with an AR10 platform in 308 or 6.5CM. I wouldnt trust any of the AR15 platform cartridges to perform in field conditions and put down hogs and deer at that range. If just paper punching at 600 and game closer in I think either the 6.8 or 6.5 would do well. Personally I like the bullet selection better on the 6.8 for closer in work but its really splitting hairs these days between spc and grendel unless youre talking about extreme long range or SBRs then their differences become apparent.
it was either here at the hide, or (obviously) elsewhere i read that with the .243 ssm, your not really gaining much more over the regular .243 chambering vs other short mags like only a 100-200fps, and yes the brass "discontinued" thing.
over the two options given, i'd go 6.8 (.270) able to use heavier heads for those nasty hogs, components easily available, and can work 30 rem brass if need be, and available in "bulk" for those you just want to make alot of dust.
or go 300blk for the ability to swap from subs to supers off the shelf and call it a day.
over the two options given, i'd go 6.8 (.270) able to use heavier heads for those nasty hogs, components easily available, and can work 30 rem brass if need be, and available in "bulk" for those you just want to make alot of dust.
or go 300blk for the ability to swap from subs to supers off the shelf and call it a day.
I'd opt for the 6.5 Grendel if you want to stick to the AR-15/small-frame platform. It'll perform exceptionally well for all the purposes you stated it'd be used for with the proper ammo, it will have more readily available components than the WSSM (and the 6.8 for things like brass), and recoil impulse and overall size of the rifle itself will lend itself pretty well to most younger children (although any 6yo and an AR of any size may be a bit daunting at first, but with some time and good training/mentoring, it'll be GTG...just be cautious re: the grip you select as larger ones will obviously inhibit small-handed shooters/kids from getting a good hold on the rifle/trigger finger placement/etc.).
Actually, a 223 AR-15 will do surprisingly well for the mentioned tasks, assuming appropriate bullet selection and shot placement, and would be most easily accommodated by small-frame shooters if the stock, grip, & handguard were selected accordingly.
Good idea on the regriping. We will not be shooting at much over 300 yds at deer. I shoot 105's and above out at our 243's with good results. I need to reconsider the Grendel again if the brass is too hard to come by in the 243 wssm. The 5.56 223 is not even a contender for what I want to achieve but thanks for giving me your opinion. How hard is getting Grendel brass and reloading in the heavier bullets? Is coal an issue with berger vld's? Also is finding a quality barrel an issue? Thanks
I'd go 6.8 spc II, build components and factory hunting ammunition is more readily available and in larger variety than those previously mentioned. There is more industry support too. Plus if the Berger vld ' s are what you are looking to shoot SSA HAS A SPC II Factory load that performs wonderfully to 600 yds and beyond.
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if you are dropping your intended range to 300yds then the 6.8 would be a better option. but if you are really wanting to shoot to 600yds there is no comparison Grendel hands down
First off 243WSSM brass is very inconsistent. Also I couldn't get it to function the best in my Olympic upper.
Probably 6.5G is the best choice. Or one of the 6mmAR's.
Probably 6.5G is the best choice. Or one of the 6mmAR's.
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Federal, SSA, Hornady, remington and S&B make 6.8 brass, it isn't hard to come by and the first 3 make for some fine reloads.
Nosler just joined in also but since they bought SSA, I would assume all Nosler brass is SSA.
For recoil, I have had both the .264LBC and 6.8, they are splitting hairs as to which has more. Neither is much IMO, if so, add a brake.
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I would go 6.8. Lots of mags, bullets, barrels, parts, etc. out there for the 6.8. I do not reload so it was an obvious choice for me. My shots at deer never are beyond 200. If you reload , the grendel would do better at longer range. Remember that the grendel, from what i have read and asked questions about, needs to have a 20 inch barrel to get the most out of it. The 6.8 does great with a 16 or 18 with no real advantages with the longer barrels. If your young boys are going to carry it around, they will like the 16 inch better than a 20 inch rifle. There are lots of folks getting better velocities out of the 6.8 with handloading or using tactical loads. Pushing 3000 fps with a 90-100 grain out of a 16 inch rifle, thats impressive. Most factory loads are loaded to saami specs for the first 6.8 chambers. The spec 2 chambers or the 68x43 chamber can shoot any and all factory ammo. I would suggest going to 68 forums and browsing around. I would look at Bison Armory and Ironworks tactical for a 6.8. Just my 2 cents.
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Is the bolt problem still an issue with the Grendel when pushed hard? Last I read (2ish years ago now) there were bolt fatigue problemd when pushing the round hard. Personally I push all my guns hard as I want every bit of performance I can get. Loading for my buddies 6.8 I was able to get going pretty good and he has a few hundred rounds through it now. From a pure ballistics standpoint if youre not going SBR the grendel and 6.8 are pretty damn close the edge of what youre planning to shoot. I seriously doubt youd notice much difference one way or the other. The 6.8 shines in SBR form and the grendel will shine poking holes at 1000. In between theyre damn near identical, anyone who tells you different isnt being completely honest.
Since you reload the sky is the limit and you will be able to load for whatever you want to do.
Since you reload the sky is the limit and you will be able to load for whatever you want to do.
Id go 6mm AR, 6mm AR Turbo or Turbo 40 like said above. Basically a 6.5 Grendel necked down to 6mm and improved. Performance is on par with a 6mm BR, ie 105s at 2800-2900fps depending on barrel length. That should get you to 1000 easy. And its gonna beat anything the 6.5 or 6.8 or .223 will do. With 105gr Berger Hunting VLDs it will take down any deer at 300yd or more and do very good in the wind at the same time.
And the best part is you get all those nice ballistics in a round where you dont have to single load the long heavies. You can run 105s at mag-length loaded on out there due to the case being so short(39mm/1.53").
6.5 Grendel wouldnt be a bad choice either though.
For a 16" barrel or shorter, as said a 6.8 is gonna be the way to go.
And the best part is you get all those nice ballistics in a round where you dont have to single load the long heavies. You can run 105s at mag-length loaded on out there due to the case being so short(39mm/1.53").
6.5 Grendel wouldnt be a bad choice either though.
For a 16" barrel or shorter, as said a 6.8 is gonna be the way to go.
It sounds like the Grendel is what you are looking for. Nosler and Norma just got on board, but you don't need Grendel brass to shoot the Grendel when times are tough. You can neck down 7.62x39 or neck up 6mm PPC and fire-form. Brass makers include:
Lapua
Hornady
Nosler
Norma
PPU
For killing within 300yds, both the Grendel and 6.8 SPC do well. I would recommend staying with the AR15 frame set for your boys since it is so easy to handle, and the higher performance intermediate calibers like Grendel and 6.8 can be shot by a kid all day long, for 3 days straight. I've watched it happen. The more trigger time you all get on them, the better you will be.
There is another option that just hit the market, and will allow you to stick with .243 Winchester in an AR15-sized gun, and that is the DPMS GII. It is the same size as an AR15, but is built around .308-based cartridges. I just got back from SHOT, where I pawed over several versions of the GII, and I have to admit that I was impressed. Not sure when we will see them, but if you want to stick with .243 Winchester, it will be a great option.
The Grendel has better bullet selection than the .243 Winchester, with higher BC's, especially when you look at the 123gr SST, 123gr A-MAX, 120gr NBT, 100gr Barnes TTSX, 120gr TSX, 100gr NBT, 100gr Partition, 125gr Partition, and 80 other hunting bullets available in 6.5mm.
The good news is, there are several options for you that will fit your needs. If you are looking to have more than one rifle or carbine, I would probably lean to the Grendel, where all the parts are common with the AR15 market, and the only different ones are the barrel, bolt, and mags. Recoil is negligible, while on-target performance actually better with the 6.5mm, even if you compare a Grendel at 2500fps with the 123gr SST to the .243 Winchester pushing the 95gr E-Tip at 3000fps:
6.5 Grendel 16"-18" barrel, 2500fps, 123gr SST .510 BC ( I easily get 2550fps with 123gr in my 16" Grendel, 100fps away from pressure signs on the chronograph @ 2648fps using CFE223)
.243 Winchester, 24" barrel, 3000fps, 95gr E-Tip, .355 BC
The .243 is slightly flatter, but the 123gr SST has less wind drift, and a Grendel carbine will catch up to the long-barreled .243 after 200yds, then beat it by 225yds for energy. If you use the 105gr A-MAX in the .243 for target work, then you're comparable to the 24" Grendel in drop/drift, but the Grendel will still have more energy.
It also sucks less powder at the bench, and recoil is very low, even in a light carbine.
My 16" Grendel is pretty tough to beat with CFE and the 123gr SST. A .510 BC in the mid 2550fps with 123gr weight is without peer right now in the 16" AR15. Closest thing would be a 130gr .277" Classic VLD ( .497 BC) from a 6.8 with an ARP chamber, using Gen I PRI mags and loaded long with a medium burning powder and at least a 10" twist, using a 9310 SuperBolt, on a squared receiver. VLD's cost almost twice as much as SST's, and I can use any Grendel mag to load the SST's in, even if I want to load to 2.275", since all the Grendel mags are standardized.
Lapua
Hornady
Nosler
Norma
PPU
For killing within 300yds, both the Grendel and 6.8 SPC do well. I would recommend staying with the AR15 frame set for your boys since it is so easy to handle, and the higher performance intermediate calibers like Grendel and 6.8 can be shot by a kid all day long, for 3 days straight. I've watched it happen. The more trigger time you all get on them, the better you will be.
There is another option that just hit the market, and will allow you to stick with .243 Winchester in an AR15-sized gun, and that is the DPMS GII. It is the same size as an AR15, but is built around .308-based cartridges. I just got back from SHOT, where I pawed over several versions of the GII, and I have to admit that I was impressed. Not sure when we will see them, but if you want to stick with .243 Winchester, it will be a great option.
The Grendel has better bullet selection than the .243 Winchester, with higher BC's, especially when you look at the 123gr SST, 123gr A-MAX, 120gr NBT, 100gr Barnes TTSX, 120gr TSX, 100gr NBT, 100gr Partition, 125gr Partition, and 80 other hunting bullets available in 6.5mm.
The good news is, there are several options for you that will fit your needs. If you are looking to have more than one rifle or carbine, I would probably lean to the Grendel, where all the parts are common with the AR15 market, and the only different ones are the barrel, bolt, and mags. Recoil is negligible, while on-target performance actually better with the 6.5mm, even if you compare a Grendel at 2500fps with the 123gr SST to the .243 Winchester pushing the 95gr E-Tip at 3000fps:
6.5 Grendel 16"-18" barrel, 2500fps, 123gr SST .510 BC ( I easily get 2550fps with 123gr in my 16" Grendel, 100fps away from pressure signs on the chronograph @ 2648fps using CFE223)
Code:
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MILS) (sec) (MILS)
0 2500 1707 0.00 0.0000 0.00
25 2457 1649 -0.93 0.0303 -0.05
50 2414 1592 0.26 0.0611 -0.10
75 2372 1537 0.52 0.0924 -0.16
100 2330 1483 0.54 0.1243 -0.21
125 2289 1431 0.47 0.1568 -0.27
150 2248 1380 0.34 0.1898 -0.32
175 2207 1331 0.18 0.2235 -0.38
200 2167 1283 0.00 0.2578 -0.44
[b]225 2127 1236 -0.20 0.2927 -0.49[/b]
250 2088 1191 -0.41 0.3283 -0.55
275 2049 1147 -0.63 0.3645 -0.62
300 2011 1104 -0.87 0.4015 -0.68
325 1973 1063 -1.11 0.4391 -0.74
350 1935 1023 -1.37 0.4775 -0.81
375 1898 984 -1.63 0.5167 -0.87
400 1861 946 -1.90 0.5566 -0.94
425 1825 910 -2.18 0.5973 -1.01
450 1789 874 -2.47 0.6388 -1.07
475 1754 840 -2.77 0.6811 -1.15
500 1719 807 -3.08 0.7243 -1.22
525 1685 776 -3.40 0.7683 -1.29
550 1652 745 -3.72 0.8133 -1.36
575 1619 716 -4.06 0.8592 -1.44
600 1586 687 -4.41 0.9060 -1.52.243 Winchester, 24" barrel, 3000fps, 95gr E-Tip, .355 BC
Code:
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory TOF Drift
(yards) (fps) (ft-lb) (MILS) (sec) (MILS)
0 3000 1898 0.00 0.0000 0.00
25 2931 1812 -1.34 0.0253 -0.06
50 2862 1728 -0.10 0.0512 -0.12
75 2795 1648 0.22 0.0777 -0.18
100 2729 1571 0.30 0.1049 -0.24
125 2664 1497 0.29 0.1327 -0.30
150 2600 1426 0.22 0.1612 -0.37
175 2537 1357 0.12 0.1904 -0.43
200 2474 1291 0.00 0.2203 -0.50
[b]225 2413 1228 -0.14 0.2510 -0.57[/b]
250 2352 1167 -0.29 0.2825 -0.64
275 2293 1109 -0.45 0.3148 -0.71
300 2234 1053 -0.63 0.3479 -0.78
325 2176 999 -0.81 0.3819 -0.86
350 2119 947 -1.01 0.4169 -0.94
375 2063 897 -1.21 0.4527 -1.01
400 2007 850 -1.43 0.4896 -1.10
425 1953 804 -1.65 0.5275 -1.18
450 1899 761 -1.89 0.5664 -1.27
475 1847 719 -2.13 0.6065 -1.35
500 1795 680 -2.39 0.6477 -1.45
525 1745 642 -2.66 0.6901 -1.54
550 1695 606 -2.94 0.7337 -1.63
575 1647 572 -3.23 0.7786 -1.73
600 1600 540 -3.53 0.8248 -1.83The .243 is slightly flatter, but the 123gr SST has less wind drift, and a Grendel carbine will catch up to the long-barreled .243 after 200yds, then beat it by 225yds for energy. If you use the 105gr A-MAX in the .243 for target work, then you're comparable to the 24" Grendel in drop/drift, but the Grendel will still have more energy.
It also sucks less powder at the bench, and recoil is very low, even in a light carbine.
My 16" Grendel is pretty tough to beat with CFE and the 123gr SST. A .510 BC in the mid 2550fps with 123gr weight is without peer right now in the 16" AR15. Closest thing would be a 130gr .277" Classic VLD ( .497 BC) from a 6.8 with an ARP chamber, using Gen I PRI mags and loaded long with a medium burning powder and at least a 10" twist, using a 9310 SuperBolt, on a squared receiver. VLD's cost almost twice as much as SST's, and I can use any Grendel mag to load the SST's in, even if I want to load to 2.275", since all the Grendel mags are standardized.
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