Title really says it all. Rifle is a precision large frame AR, not for combat (fun/matches/maybe hunting only), but one never knows I suppose. I was looking at the 45 degree offset sights and red dot sights, but is this really something I should put on my gun? Do most guys just put these cause they look cool/because Chris Costa told them to? Normal BUIS probably won't work as I wasn't planning on using a QD optic mount (rifle still in progress). I'm not *too* worried about a few more ounces on a gun that will probably weigh 12+ lbs.
- Thread starter nuclear_shooter
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Best case scenario they weigh a few ounces more. Worst case they are the only thing you have to aim with. Why not?
Ask yourself this:
What happens to your day if your scope breaks, gets banged out of alignment or is by some manner of bad luck, taken out of the equation?
If you are competitive in a match or are attending an expensive class, you don't want to pack up and go home. Perhaps instead of plunking down a few hundred bucks for some irons you may never use, you may consider something like a red dot with a QD mount to mount your weapon in place of your downed optic and still have a serious alternative. I believe Lowlight did a video years back similar to this where he backed up a full size scope with an ACOG on a .308 gas gun.
For serious use, irons or a secondary aiming solution is mandatory.
What happens to your day if your scope breaks, gets banged out of alignment or is by some manner of bad luck, taken out of the equation?
If you are competitive in a match or are attending an expensive class, you don't want to pack up and go home. Perhaps instead of plunking down a few hundred bucks for some irons you may never use, you may consider something like a red dot with a QD mount to mount your weapon in place of your downed optic and still have a serious alternative. I believe Lowlight did a video years back similar to this where he backed up a full size scope with an ACOG on a .308 gas gun.
For serious use, irons or a secondary aiming solution is mandatory.
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Here's the vid i'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_774XyZcc4
Not as much salt & pepper in Frank's chin whiskers in those days...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_774XyZcc4
Not as much salt & pepper in Frank's chin whiskers in those days...
Scopes can fail, batteries can run out leaving red dots dark. I have an old Stevens model 87A .22 that only has iron sights....... those have never failed. That's not to say they couldn't be broken off, but why not have the option on your AR?
Depending on your AR setup and the ring height you'll need to get most optics up for a proper cheek weld, you should be able to put a set of folding BUIS on and keep them folded down and out of the way from your scope or red dot. Should one of these ever fail you, you then have the option to remove failed optic, flip up your BUIS and continue on.
Certainly not necessary, but as they say, "different strokes for different folks". There is no wrong answer - go with what ever you feel you want or need to compliment the way you'll use your gun.
For what it's worth, I have a S&W MP15 AR and a MP-15-22 both with BUIS flip up iron sights mounted on the gas block and rail. Both guns wear either a Eotech red dot, or a SS 1-6 or 3-9 scope in a GG&G FLT quick detach mount. The BUIS co-witness with the Eotech, and also stow nicely below either of the mounted SS scopes - so they are out of the way when I have glass mounted. A quick flip of the QD mount and I can flip up the BUIS and use them if I want or need to.
Optics are nice and are what I use a majority of the time, but sometimes it's fun to plink with just iron sights too. Having them already on the gun and sighted in waited to be called into use is a bonus. Do I "need" them? No, probably not. It's nice to have options though.
Depending on your AR setup and the ring height you'll need to get most optics up for a proper cheek weld, you should be able to put a set of folding BUIS on and keep them folded down and out of the way from your scope or red dot. Should one of these ever fail you, you then have the option to remove failed optic, flip up your BUIS and continue on.
Certainly not necessary, but as they say, "different strokes for different folks". There is no wrong answer - go with what ever you feel you want or need to compliment the way you'll use your gun.
For what it's worth, I have a S&W MP15 AR and a MP-15-22 both with BUIS flip up iron sights mounted on the gas block and rail. Both guns wear either a Eotech red dot, or a SS 1-6 or 3-9 scope in a GG&G FLT quick detach mount. The BUIS co-witness with the Eotech, and also stow nicely below either of the mounted SS scopes - so they are out of the way when I have glass mounted. A quick flip of the QD mount and I can flip up the BUIS and use them if I want or need to.
Optics are nice and are what I use a majority of the time, but sometimes it's fun to plink with just iron sights too. Having them already on the gun and sighted in waited to be called into use is a bonus. Do I "need" them? No, probably not. It's nice to have options though.
It's only mall ninja if you already have a story and scene in your head how your going to use them.
I have a pair of BUIS on my AR15 which I ran for years knowing I was going to run an optic. Once I got my optic (2 years later) I have not used them since unless to teach my friends what 1/3 go witness is. Then you have all these guys running on the what if fantasy if the "bad guy" who ever or what ever the f that is but they know him already cause they have a fantasy all set and ready on exactly how it's going to go when they take off their scope and have to flip up back up sights to save their life that one time their life is on the line their optic WILL ago down.
But they are nice to have if you want and have the money. But a must especially for a LR build? No. I won't buy BUIS ever again because for me it's a waste of $$ honestly because if and when my optic(s) go down or explode I'll calmly walk to my truck and take it off and replace or fix it. Then calmly walk back to the range and continue shooting.
I have a pair of BUIS on my AR15 which I ran for years knowing I was going to run an optic. Once I got my optic (2 years later) I have not used them since unless to teach my friends what 1/3 go witness is. Then you have all these guys running on the what if fantasy if the "bad guy" who ever or what ever the f that is but they know him already cause they have a fantasy all set and ready on exactly how it's going to go when they take off their scope and have to flip up back up sights to save their life that one time their life is on the line their optic WILL ago down.
But they are nice to have if you want and have the money. But a must especially for a LR build? No. I won't buy BUIS ever again because for me it's a waste of $$ honestly because if and when my optic(s) go down or explode I'll calmly walk to my truck and take it off and replace or fix it. Then calmly walk back to the range and continue shooting.
That's a lot of coins and weight there for a backup. I'd say if you have the $$$ then definitely go for it. But if you just want something for emergency backup then Iron Sights works great. Light Weight, Cheap, and can train to be very effect out to 300-500 yards. Always good to have a backup.
For a backup ACOG, yeah it is. But you have to figure a set of Troy folding irons start around $220 while the Aimpoint Pro setup costs $325ish dollars for the whole setup. Heck, if you're a fan of KAC irons, a set of those costs more than a PRO setup. My point being, my capabilities for that extra $100 or so dollars are exponentially greater than with those irons.
I dont have backup sights on any of my guns, since I can't really see any situation where I'd potentially need one.
If a scope breaks at a match, I'd prefer to borrow a rifle from someone. If it breaks at the range, I'll just head home or grab another gun. If it breaks while hunting I'll also just head home.
If I was going on an expensive hunting trip, I might consider bringing a spare zeroed scope in a QD mount.
I could potentially see it on a SHTF rifle, but given the extremely low risk of a SHTF situation occurring and the extremely low risk of the Aimpoint on my current SHTF rifle breaking, its a risk I'm willing to take...
If a scope breaks at a match, I'd prefer to borrow a rifle from someone. If it breaks at the range, I'll just head home or grab another gun. If it breaks while hunting I'll also just head home.
If I was going on an expensive hunting trip, I might consider bringing a spare zeroed scope in a QD mount.
I could potentially see it on a SHTF rifle, but given the extremely low risk of a SHTF situation occurring and the extremely low risk of the Aimpoint on my current SHTF rifle breaking, its a risk I'm willing to take...
My large frame AR fills a similar role and I choose not to run BUIS.
I have BUIS on all my AR15s, but they serve a different purpose.
I have BUIS on all my AR15s, but they serve a different purpose.
There are two types of shooters, those who have shit fail at the most inopportune time, and those who are going to.
Those who have never had to depend on a working weapon, won't understand the need. Those who have, never have to ask.
Those who have never had to depend on a working weapon, won't understand the need. Those who have, never have to ask.
my cqb rifles have buis on them. I like the idea of having an option in case the optics go south. my sass's do not. I just don't see the need on those.
I was a bit late to the party for electronic sights so my perspective may be different than some. I grew up on iron sights, it is what I was comfortable with long before we started spending as much money on glass as what it was sitting on (on an AR platform)... I couldn't imagine one without some irons on it. With that being said... I am spoiled F'n rotten with my EOT and am learning how to work with'em but I always know that my irons are dialed in and ready to roll.
on edit... and after a little thought. I will own a GAP-10 in the near future, the plans for it most likely won't include BUIS... at least not at this time anyway.
on edit... and after a little thought. I will own a GAP-10 in the near future, the plans for it most likely won't include BUIS... at least not at this time anyway.
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I personally don't use the flip up sites , I run a set of Troy fixed sites. My M4 is a working gun so if by some terrible twist of fate my optic shits out my irons are right their in place with no change to no reason to takes eyes off the target. Now this gun is a combat style carbine setup for close engagement.
Don't run backup sites on a precision rife
Don't run backup sites on a precision rife
Which, of course, is a logical fallacy.
It might hold some truth for LEO/Mil, but def not for the vast majority of people.
This is where the use of the firearm comes into play. For a working rifle I agree. A patrol rifle or a military rifle they would be a must. My hunting rifle or my competition rifles, not so much. I could see the need on a hunting rifle depending on what and where you are hunting.
Depends upon your hunting style I suppose.
While I might hunt from stationary positions with a long-range optic on an AR, I periodically hit the bushes to scout and place / check trail cameras. Lugging a 12-lb setup sucks in brush, but I don't want to go unarmed. So I usually remove the optic with QD mount and flip up the irons, which reduces bulk and ~3 lbs of weight. A 9-lb rifle in a 2-pt sling isn't so bad. When returning to the open, I simply fold down the irons and replace the optic. Quality QD mounts return to zero very well.
While I might hunt from stationary positions with a long-range optic on an AR, I periodically hit the bushes to scout and place / check trail cameras. Lugging a 12-lb setup sucks in brush, but I don't want to go unarmed. So I usually remove the optic with QD mount and flip up the irons, which reduces bulk and ~3 lbs of weight. A 9-lb rifle in a 2-pt sling isn't so bad. When returning to the open, I simply fold down the irons and replace the optic. Quality QD mounts return to zero very well.
If it's a straight out bench / prone target shooting / bug hole shooting = no. My prone varmint / bench AR for shooting the smallest possible groups sports no BUIS.
About the only time you should need BUIS is for the following:
- self defense AR
- SHTF AR
- possible 3gun set up
- hunting purposes (I like my offset irons for this purpose for deer running close / past tree stand)
- nice option to practice with at the range / fun
- are you in a war? possible law enforcement if scope goes down.
and if and when I use BUIS, it is usually offset irons (get the best of both worlds):
About the only time you should need BUIS is for the following:
- self defense AR
- SHTF AR
- possible 3gun set up
- hunting purposes (I like my offset irons for this purpose for deer running close / past tree stand)
- nice option to practice with at the range / fun
- are you in a war? possible law enforcement if scope goes down.
and if and when I use BUIS, it is usually offset irons (get the best of both worlds):
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I believe they're mainly for shooting sports (3-Gun, etc...) and two way ranges, but not solely. Depending on your primary optic and hunting terrain, an offset red dot zeroed at 50m can be beneficial while hunting in dense brush, especially if your primary doesn't dial down well. It can also be the difference in taking game if your primary shits the bed on a traveling hunting trip or not. My uncle taught me that one when I was young as I watched him miss out on a nice bull elk because of a failed scope on the closing day of season.
I don't like QD mounts very much either, but I do have a 1/2 box wrench on my multi-tool (Emerson EDC) to pull off a mount wherever I'm at as well.
I don't like QD mounts very much either, but I do have a 1/2 box wrench on my multi-tool (Emerson EDC) to pull off a mount wherever I'm at as well.
I have them on my SHTF AR. I check my EoTech every month on my AR and here a couple months ago I went to turn it on and found the battery to be dead. I woulda never thought with the low use and fairly new age of the battery that it would be dead. Had i needed my rifle at that moment it is nice to know i can peel off the EoTech (QD mount) and go to irons. I even put night sights in the BUIS because most things happen in the dark.
Now on my large frame AR i had BUIS on it in the begining because i was looking at using it for a different role than it has now. I decided to go more precision and off came the BUIS. I just dont see a reason unless you gonna run 3 gun.
Now on my large frame AR i had BUIS on it in the begining because i was looking at using it for a different role than it has now. I decided to go more precision and off came the BUIS. I just dont see a reason unless you gonna run 3 gun.
I understand it's hard to grasp when rose colored glass's are saying it's a,... one is one,... world.
However with this,
I fine logical fallacy that (above), as the world I come from says you don't give up or quit when shit breaks or plan A falls apart, You prep for what if's before you jump off.
So, it looks like given the low weight costs, it can't hurt to have them. I really don't like the standard AR-15 style sights, I just never was very good with them, so I would like something a bit different than that. What do you guys like for 45 degree offset sights and RDS?
Are you an operator by any chance? SHTFer?
batteries in an aimpoint last like 50,000 hours or something...but only like 5 minutes in this freezing ass weather so that every time I have to pull the rifle out the battery is dead. Great in the summer though...so I got that going for me, which is nice. gotta have iron sights
Nope, but did stay in a Holiday Inn Express one time, during band camp.
I am using the 45 offsets.. honestly, it's f'n weird mainly because its new. I like'em but need to practice switching over.... which should be fun to get comfortable with.
Backup Irons sights on your AR pattern rifle are much like fire extinguishers and life preservers. You might go your whole life and never need to use them, but if you do need them, you will need them badly....
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From the ones I've seen and gotten to use the fixed Troy sites seemed the most idiot proof that's why I went with them and on my carbine. I don't have a precision AR but I don't runny sort of backup sites on my bolt guns. I'm planning to build a 308 on the AR , not so much precision but with a 2-10 power range scope and I plan to use a smaller red dot mounted on the scope for a situation where a close or very rapid engagement may be needed.
Since we have been at war for the last 10 years, with a military that is heavy on optics, do we have data on how many times the optics have gone down requiring the need for backup sights in a combat situation?
I work and hang with military vets/active and federal agents (ICE, BP, Fed Sec ect.) And I haven't heard of one actually needing to dump optics and run BUIS.
One does not need an optic to fail per se to get the benefit of back-up's/irons. I can think of more than a few times where I've been on stationed on a perimeter for a call that came in the middle of the night, set my Aimpoint was a low illumination setting (as the call began at night) and forget about it when something kicks off after sun up..."oops, my dot has washed out"...thank goodness I co-witness them with my irons so I wasn't left with nothing. The same thing can happen going in and out of structures with varying degrees of ambient light. And let's not forget those poor bastards who run Eotechs and forget about the shut-off. Or how does your optic respond when white light is being used? You may be on the right setting for your weapon mounted light, but what if your buddy deploys the latest, greatest 5 Bazillion Lumen Blind-o-matic 5000?
My point is even if you think you have all of the factors considered, I GUARANTEE there will be some scenario pop up in your future where you'll step back and go: "Gosh, I never thought of that". The difference is: will you be prepared or not?
A person has to do what's right by their budget, needs and preferences...but never forget:
- Murphy's Law should always be observed
- Anything man-made can/will fail. If it's an electronic or takes batteries, it will fail faster and harder
- 2 is 1, 1 is none
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I know two professionals (SWCC , DOD) that have had to use their back up sites because their optic was broke. Both men were running 10.5" M4's with the fixed A2 style front site. The "River Rat" was using and Elcan , he removed the site and deployed a rear pop up , the contractor running an EoTech which got shattered instantly used his attached rear site. I.worked with operator #2 which is why I run my setup
I heard of two times. Least its what a friend who went to Iraq told me. Whether made up or not...it is at least plausible. First time a guys ACOG took a bullet. Second time the optic was damaged in a IED explosion to a hummer.
I only have a set on my "shtf" AR. Rest of my guns are either irons only or scope only. But my shooting is just going to the range so if an optic fails...i deal with it at home
I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them.
True anythings possible. As for the IED, if he/his weapon was with in the blast damage of that much force to bust a ACOG he was in no shape to fight let alone flip to BUIS. Its rare to see someone in a disabled IED vehicle walk away and not leave the convoy/patrol and go straight to medical at the very least. Especially assuming he was in the vehicle at the time, that's a LOT of force.
But when I speak and post on forums, I speak on and to hunters and range marksmen. Military and LEO should know better and usually issued basic gear. They should be telling US what to run not the other way around. Thats like a professional athlete asking a adult league or little league player for advice on the big leagues. They have peers and instructors for real war time advice. Not some good ol boys on the interwebs.
Why use BUIS, why not BDC irons as primary? Think about it, on E type targets, BDC irons allow for hits at UKD to about 400 meters with BSZ; and, using BDC function, the sight can be hastily adjusted for KD hits out to about 600 meters. And, the only thing irons require for good hits are the shooter's recognition for the need to properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment, and focus on the front sight. Those tasks are easy to accommodate since the eye wants to naturally balance and center things.
Thing is, most folks simply do not know how to properly point the rifle with irons; and. therefore, not hitting where aimed with such sights, the shooter considers them inferior to optics. The fact is a trained marksman has no need for an optic in most scenerios where a relationship between sight and target can be established. Such relationships can clearly be established out to about 600 meters when shooting at something like the E type target. Still, shooters buy optics thinking they will get better results than when using irons, and although the optlic will certainly serve as a substitute for marksmanship it will also as surely deceive the shooter into believing he actually knows how to shoot when in fact he knows nothing about good shooting, as evidenced by his inability to get good groupings with the scope on anything beyond mid range.
Thing is, most folks simply do not know how to properly point the rifle with irons; and. therefore, not hitting where aimed with such sights, the shooter considers them inferior to optics. The fact is a trained marksman has no need for an optic in most scenerios where a relationship between sight and target can be established. Such relationships can clearly be established out to about 600 meters when shooting at something like the E type target. Still, shooters buy optics thinking they will get better results than when using irons, and although the optlic will certainly serve as a substitute for marksmanship it will also as surely deceive the shooter into believing he actually knows how to shoot when in fact he knows nothing about good shooting, as evidenced by his inability to get good groupings with the scope on anything beyond mid range.
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I use the GG&G same plane BUIS flip up sights, I just don't understand not having some type of BUIS....if your optic/red dot/etc... ever fails this will save the day, everyday.
OP, if you've said what your primary optic is going to be, I missed it. IF you decide you want a back-up system of some sort (the need is obviously still being debated) then your primary optic pretty much determines your options for the backup system:
If you're using an EOTech or Aimpoint (or similar), then co-witnessed or partially co-witnessed irons tend to be the way to go.
If you're using an actual scope, such as on a DMR type rifle, then you may want to explore a red-dot either mounted on the scope or on the rail (45 deg). On that platform it gives you a little flexibility depending on target distance, not just if your primary shits the bed. You can set up the red-dot for 0-100 (or farther depending on how hard you want to work at it) and leave your primary optic for farther distances or more precise shots.
Currently I only have backups on 2 rifles, both of which are "carbines": my old patrol rifle (M4gery) has an Eotech with co-witnessed irons.
My 16" OBR (7.62) has a Bushnell ERS as the primary with a T1 on a 45deg rail mount for use at closer distances because that rifle was purpose-selected to fill sort of a carbine/DMR type role where I could use it for VERY close range all the way out to the limits of the 16" barrel.
If you're using an EOTech or Aimpoint (or similar), then co-witnessed or partially co-witnessed irons tend to be the way to go.
If you're using an actual scope, such as on a DMR type rifle, then you may want to explore a red-dot either mounted on the scope or on the rail (45 deg). On that platform it gives you a little flexibility depending on target distance, not just if your primary shits the bed. You can set up the red-dot for 0-100 (or farther depending on how hard you want to work at it) and leave your primary optic for farther distances or more precise shots.
Currently I only have backups on 2 rifles, both of which are "carbines": my old patrol rifle (M4gery) has an Eotech with co-witnessed irons.
My 16" OBR (7.62) has a Bushnell ERS as the primary with a T1 on a 45deg rail mount for use at closer distances because that rifle was purpose-selected to fill sort of a carbine/DMR type role where I could use it for VERY close range all the way out to the limits of the 16" barrel.
Also the 45 degree offset BUIS are really good I put a set on a friends AR and used them and it is really easy to get use too.
Dueck Defense makes them, they also have some knock off brands that are cheap.
Not my gun, but this is what they look like and it doesn't take much effort at all to get used to the slight flip of the wrist.
Dueck Defense makes them, they also have some knock off brands that are cheap.
Not my gun, but this is what they look like and it doesn't take much effort at all to get used to the slight flip of the wrist.
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Yeah thats hwy i mentioned taking it with a grain of salt. I never saw it and am going off a verbal report (and mind you this didnt happen to my friend but people around him). Although told it happened, i more consider it in the field of yeah that could definitely happen
Did you even read either post the OP made?
We get it Sterling, you prefer irons to all things optics, but when the OP is obviously going to scope his "precision large frame AR", why try to steer him to 1917 technology? I want to see someone show up at the Hide Cup or long range hunt rocking an SR-25 with irons...
Said title says all "BUIS do I need them" Back up iron sights? I dunno, I read it as asking for opinion on BUIS...and as I said even if its a large frame shooter (long range) if optic fails BUIS will always be there for you.
*edit* to be honest I do not know what a mall ninja is if that is part of the BUIS question.
*edit* to be honest I do not know what a mall ninja is if that is part of the BUIS question.
First, an optic is not a substitute for marksmanship. That's a myth. A scope does not make people shoot better because it does not alter their ability to execute the fundamentals.
A good scope is, in fact, the opposite: An optic on a rifle is a useful aid that provides timely feedback to the shooter and helps him diagnose his errors when learning the fundamentals.
Therefore, and in my experience, optics do not make new students think that they know how to shoot better.
Second, trained marksmen need optics. They needed them as badly in World War Two as they do today, it's just that they were not available seventy five years ago.
I can't see a license plate, or identify a target, with only my front sight. It would be negligent for me to take a shot seeing only the relationship between sights and target.
Likewise, iron sights give no optical advantage or situational advantage to the military marksman. On today's battlefield, advocating that warfighters use irons instead of optics can be fatal. And for close range, and for CQB in dark rooms, iron sights suck equally and can prove equally fatal - especially when combined with shove-shoot techniques and the trigger manipulation common to short-range engagements.
Third, at the risk of stating the obvious, back up iron sights do not serve the same purpose as competition iron sights.
Redmanns,
No, you did not get it. My post is about understanding where the barrel is pointed, the purpose of any sight. Having knowledge about the qualities of all common devices in general permits a shooter to make better decisions than from a limited understanding where the scope is seen to be ideal even if it is not. This is a forum is it not, the sharing of ideas and opinion on the matter. What's a novice shooter to do only with opinions from those that have no experience with much any concept other than an optic.
No, you did not get it. My post is about understanding where the barrel is pointed, the purpose of any sight. Having knowledge about the qualities of all common devices in general permits a shooter to make better decisions than from a limited understanding where the scope is seen to be ideal even if it is not. This is a forum is it not, the sharing of ideas and opinion on the matter. What's a novice shooter to do only with opinions from those that have no experience with much any concept other than an optic.
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To understand where the barrel is pointed is the purpose of teaching the fundamental rules of firearms safety.
The purpose of sights has nothing to do with an understanding of the barrel. The purpose of the sights is related to obtaining performance from the equipment.
Once again you are completely wrong, the purpose of sights is to know where the barrel is pointed, period. And since the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, an understanding for sight alignment is essential to good shooting.
BUIS- do I need them or are they just for mall ninjas?
And if you are missing in a direction other than the one in which your sights are aligned, either you've set up your equipment incorrectly or you're doing it wrong.
When I miss, the bullet still goes in the direction that my barrel was pointed.
And if you are missing in a direction other than the one in which your sights are aligned, either you've set up your equipment incorrectly or you're doing it wrong.
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